Pianotech

Hello Colleagues 
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Hello Michael,
Yes, turning the elliptical shaped front key pins speeds up the deterioration.  I am working on a 1950's Baldwin M action and the front key pins had been turned by approximately 45 degrees. Many of the key bushing cloths were actually cut by the pins.
I think that in a pinch,  turning the front key pins is an option to eliminate the wobbliness but only as a temporary solution.
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
678-416-8055
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 08:22
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 8:22:00 AM
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues 
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

I read somewhere (where?) that the oblong pins are designed to be turned to adjust the gap. So, why don't the balance rail pins also have the same feature? There are plenty of deeply furrowed balance rail bushings. Turning the pins a little bit isn't going to dig into the bushing, but more than a little bitis going to do that. So if you've got loose keys, it's time to rebush or use Profelt. But fine adjustments are possible if you're looking for consistent clearance. Otherwise, why not just have a flat sided pin? Plenty of bearing surface and less wear on the bushings. I can only surmise this has been hashed out many years ago by the greatest designers and engineers, and it seems to work. Who am I to question tradition?
I also agree with Joel, that cost is likely a big factor. That curbside piano the customer just got probably isn't going to get new bushings, and selling that trade-in for a little more profit by turning the pins instead of rebushing, is tempting.
My thoughts..
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------



To change your subscriptions, go to My Subscriptions . To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to Unsubscribe .


Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 10:32:00 AM
From: Joel Weber
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Over the years I've seen plenty of turned key pins, evidently to remedy loose bushings.

It seems to work for a while, though in the end the correct repair is to replace the bushings.

Usually cost seems to dictate either turning the pins or replacing the bushings (er even installing

new pins).  As to the design, I've never heard a theory advanced and wonder if tradition keeps them

oblong, or the larger surface area is more desirable to spread out friction and keep from digging a

rut or channel into cloth?

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 8:22:00 AM
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues 
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 11:04:00 AM
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

I read somewhere (where?) that the oblong pins are designed to be turned to adjust the gap. So, why don't the balance rail pins also have the same feature? There are plenty of deeply furrowed balance rail bushings. Turning the pins a little bit isn't going to dig into the bushing, but more than a little bitis going to do that. So if you've got loose keys, it's time to rebush or use Profelt. But fine adjustments are possible if you're looking for consistent clearance. Otherwise, why not just have a flat sided pin? Plenty of bearing surface and less wear on the bushings. I can only surmise this has been hashed out many years ago by the greatest designers and engineers, and it seems to work. Who am I to question tradition?
I also agree with Joel, that cost is likely a big factor. That curbside piano the customer just got probably isn't going to get new bushings, and selling that trade-in for a little more profit by turning the pins instead of rebushing, is tempting.
My thoughts..
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------



To change your subscriptions, go to My Subscriptions . To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to Unsubscribe .


Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 10:32:00 AM
From: Joel Weber
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Over the years I've seen plenty of turned key pins, evidently to remedy loose bushings.

It seems to work for a while, though in the end the correct repair is to replace the bushings.

Usually cost seems to dictate either turning the pins or replacing the bushings (er even installing

new pins).  As to the design, I've never heard a theory advanced and wonder if tradition keeps them

oblong, or the larger surface area is more desirable to spread out friction and keep from digging a

rut or channel into cloth?

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 8:22:00 AM
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues 
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

hello Michael,
i attached a picture of a sketch i made, which would explain, at least to me, why the front key pins are eliptical in shape:
it ensures equal friction as the key moves up and down.  A straight pin, like the balance key pin, would not offer equal friction because of the radius at which the front key hole moves.
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
678-416-8055
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 11:50
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues - Many, many thanks for your speedy replies. The piano repair Company has 

not, even though asked, given a quote on key re-bushing and replacement of all cloths, felt, washers (both paper and felt) followed by the necessary setting up and regulating and the owner

is prepared to pay. I hope they are capable . . . .  !  Being a Bechstein Model 10 Upright I advised him to: "get it done and enjoy the pleasure of a good piano!" The gist of all your answers has been used to back this up. Now we'll see what happens. 

So I am retired now - not surprising at 86+ - and have need of hearing aids - but I do like to keep in touch. After more than a quarter of a Century at Glyndebourne I had to call it a day (which was exceedingly sad) and that was about fifteen years ago. Now my son Maxim is working there but in a totally different capacity, for he is a highly qualified professional Theatre Technician and Recording Engineer and has been in great demand during Covid times for recording full Symphony Orchestras as accompaniment to On-Stage Opera singers. So at this very moment he is setting up to record the Glyndebourne Chorus for Tristan & Isolde.

SO I can still enjoy Glyndebourne - but from a back seat!  Michael G. uk.

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 11:04:00 AM
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

I read somewhere (where?) that the oblong pins are designed to be turned to adjust the gap. So, why don't the balance rail pins also have the same feature? There are plenty of deeply furrowed balance rail bushings. Turning the pins a little bit isn't going to dig into the bushing, but more than a little bitis going to do that. So if you've got loose keys, it's time to rebush or use Profelt. But fine adjustments are possible if you're looking for consistent clearance. Otherwise, why not just have a flat sided pin? Plenty of bearing surface and less wear on the bushings. I can only surmise this has been hashed out many years ago by the greatest designers and engineers, and it seems to work. Who am I to question tradition?
I also agree with Joel, that cost is likely a big factor. That curbside piano the customer just got probably isn't going to get new bushings, and selling that trade-in for a little more profit by turning the pins instead of rebushing, is tempting.
My thoughts..
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------



To change your subscriptions, go to My Subscriptions . To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to Unsubscribe .


Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 10:32:00 AM
From: Joel Weber
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Over the years I've seen plenty of turned key pins, evidently to remedy loose bushings.

It seems to work for a while, though in the end the correct repair is to replace the bushings.

Usually cost seems to dictate either turning the pins or replacing the bushings (er even installing

new pins).  As to the design, I've never heard a theory advanced and wonder if tradition keeps them

oblong, or the larger surface area is more desirable to spread out friction and keep from digging a

rut or channel into cloth?

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 8:22:00 AM
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Michael,

Aabsolutely, the design of the front pin as it is precisely as you stated, to provide greater surface area to the much faster wearing front rail bushings. 

A look at Yamaha front rail pins shows a nearly flat and wide surface to the bushing cloth clearly for the above reason. 

The turning of the pin is not a design intention but rather a shortcut devised long ago (in the days when it was virtually impossible to actually replace key bushings outside of the factory...or at least do a good job at it).

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 12:03
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

hello Michael,
i attached a picture of a sketch i made, which would explain, at least to me, why the front key pins are eliptical in shape:
it ensures equal friction as the key moves up and down.  A straight pin, like the balance key pin, would not offer equal friction because of the radius at which the front key hole moves.
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
678-416-8055

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 11:50
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues - Many, many thanks for your speedy replies. The piano repair Company has 

not, even though asked, given a quote on key re-bushing and replacement of all cloths, felt, washers (both paper and felt) followed by the necessary setting up and regulating and the owner

is prepared to pay. I hope they are capable . . . .  !  Being a Bechstein Model 10 Upright I advised him to: "get it done and enjoy the pleasure of a good piano!" The gist of all your answers has been used to back this up. Now we'll see what happens. 

So I am retired now - not surprising at 86+ - and have need of hearing aids - but I do like to keep in touch. After more than a quarter of a Century at Glyndebourne I had to call it a day (which was exceedingly sad) and that was about fifteen years ago. Now my son Maxim is working there but in a totally different capacity, for he is a highly qualified professional Theatre Technician and Recording Engineer and has been in great demand during Covid times for recording full Symphony Orchestras as accompaniment to On-Stage Opera singers. So at this very moment he is setting up to record the Glyndebourne Chorus for Tristan & Isolde.

SO I can still enjoy Glyndebourne - but from a back seat!  Michael G. uk.

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 11:04:00 AM
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

I read somewhere (where?) that the oblong pins are designed to be turned to adjust the gap. So, why don't the balance rail pins also have the same feature? There are plenty of deeply furrowed balance rail bushings. Turning the pins a little bit isn't going to dig into the bushing, but more than a little bitis going to do that. So if you've got loose keys, it's time to rebush or use Profelt. But fine adjustments are possible if you're looking for consistent clearance. Otherwise, why not just have a flat sided pin? Plenty of bearing surface and less wear on the bushings. I can only surmise this has been hashed out many years ago by the greatest designers and engineers, and it seems to work. Who am I to question tradition?
I also agree with Joel, that cost is likely a big factor. That curbside piano the customer just got probably isn't going to get new bushings, and selling that trade-in for a little more profit by turning the pins instead of rebushing, is tempting.
My thoughts..
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------



To change your subscriptions, go to My Subscriptions . To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to Unsubscribe .


Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 10:32:00 AM
From: Joel Weber
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Over the years I've seen plenty of turned key pins, evidently to remedy loose bushings.

It seems to work for a while, though in the end the correct repair is to replace the bushings.

Usually cost seems to dictate either turning the pins or replacing the bushings (er even installing

new pins).  As to the design, I've never heard a theory advanced and wonder if tradition keeps them

oblong, or the larger surface area is more desirable to spread out friction and keep from digging a

rut or channel into cloth?

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 8:22:00 AM
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

I was told not to rotate the pin more than 8 degrees. That the surface area doesn't change much because of the oval radius.
You can see where point of the oval will intrude into the felt. A micro adjustment is all you get.
I never have done this except maybe on a random key once.

------------------------------
Keith Roberts
owner
Hathaway Pines CA
209-770-4312
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 18:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Michael,

Aabsolutely, the design of the front pin as it is precisely as you stated, to provide greater surface area to the much faster wearing front rail bushings.

A look at Yamaha front rail pins shows a nearly flat and wide surface to the bushing cloth clearly for the above reason.

The turning of the pin is not a design intention but rather a shortcut devised long ago (in the days when it was virtually impossible to actually replace key bushings outside of the factory...or at least do a good job at it).

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 12:03
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

hello Michael,
i attached a picture of a sketch i made, which would explain, at least to me, why the front key pins are eliptical in shape:
it ensures equal friction as the key moves up and down.  A straight pin, like the balance key pin, would not offer equal friction because of the radius at which the front key hole moves.
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
678-416-8055

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 11:50
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues - Many, many thanks for your speedy replies. The piano repair Company has 

not, even though asked, given a quote on key re-bushing and replacement of all cloths, felt, washers (both paper and felt) followed by the necessary setting up and regulating and the owner

is prepared to pay. I hope they are capable . . . .  !  Being a Bechstein Model 10 Upright I advised him to: "get it done and enjoy the pleasure of a good piano!" The gist of all your answers has been used to back this up. Now we'll see what happens. 

So I am retired now - not surprising at 86+ - and have need of hearing aids - but I do like to keep in touch. After more than a quarter of a Century at Glyndebourne I had to call it a day (which was exceedingly sad) and that was about fifteen years ago. Now my son Maxim is working there but in a totally different capacity, for he is a highly qualified professional Theatre Technician and Recording Engineer and has been in great demand during Covid times for recording full Symphony Orchestras as accompaniment to On-Stage Opera singers. So at this very moment he is setting up to record the Glyndebourne Chorus for Tristan & Isolde.

SO I can still enjoy Glyndebourne - but from a back seat!  Michael G. uk.

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 11:04:00 AM
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

I read somewhere (where?) that the oblong pins are designed to be turned to adjust the gap. So, why don't the balance rail pins also have the same feature? There are plenty of deeply furrowed balance rail bushings. Turning the pins a little bit isn't going to dig into the bushing, but more than a little bitis going to do that. So if you've got loose keys, it's time to rebush or use Profelt. But fine adjustments are possible if you're looking for consistent clearance. Otherwise, why not just have a flat sided pin? Plenty of bearing surface and less wear on the bushings. I can only surmise this has been hashed out many years ago by the greatest designers and engineers, and it seems to work. Who am I to question tradition?
I also agree with Joel, that cost is likely a big factor. That curbside piano the customer just got probably isn't going to get new bushings, and selling that trade-in for a little more profit by turning the pins instead of rebushing, is tempting.
My thoughts..
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------



To change your subscriptions, go to My Subscriptions . To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to Unsubscribe .


Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 10:32:00 AM
From: Joel Weber
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Over the years I've seen plenty of turned key pins, evidently to remedy loose bushings.

It seems to work for a while, though in the end the correct repair is to replace the bushings.

Usually cost seems to dictate either turning the pins or replacing the bushings (er even installing

new pins).  As to the design, I've never heard a theory advanced and wonder if tradition keeps them

oblong, or the larger surface area is more desirable to spread out friction and keep from digging a

rut or channel into cloth?

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/15/2021 8:22:00 AM
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Hello everyone, I have an observation and a question.  My opinion depends on the true shape of the front rail pin.  If it is an ellipse (oval), which I will describe as two parallel sides with a half circle at each end, then the slightest deviation from straight causes a huge difference in contact area from the long sides to two tiny contact points at opposing sides at opposite ends.  This is definitely a bad situation to create.  If the two sides of the key pin are opposing parabolas then the contact area with the bushing stays the same and close to the center.  In this case a deviation from "exactly straight" is not as horrendous as many make it out to be. I believe that almost all key pins have sides that are two outward facing parabolas and are not ellipses. I would like to ask the collective piano brain trust reading this if anyone has ever made this same observation, or am I wrong?  I am NOT advocating turning front rail pins; I'm just curious, and of course none of this applies to pins that have non-circular cross sections for the entire length of the pin, e.g.:  Yamaha

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-250-9596
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 08:22
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

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Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
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Original Message:
Sent: 7/16/2021 9:17:00 PM
From: Glen Hart
Subject: RE: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello everyone, I have an observation and a question.  My opinion depends on the true shape of the front rail pin.  If it is an ellipse (oval), which I will describe as two parallel sides with a half circle at each end, then the slightest deviation from straight causes a huge difference in contact area from the long sides to two tiny contact points at opposing sides at opposite ends.  This is definitely a bad situation to create.  If the two sides of the key pin are opposing parabolas then the contact area with the bushing stays the same and close to the center.  In this case a deviation from "exactly straight" is not as horrendous as many make it out to be. I believe that almost all key pins have sides that are two outward facing parabolas and are not ellipses. I would like to ask the collective piano brain trust reading this if anyone has ever made this same observation, or am I wrong?  I am NOT advocating turning front rail pins; I'm just curious, and of course none of this applies to pins that have non-circular cross sections for the entire length of the pin, e.g.:  Yamaha

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Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-250-9596
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2021 08:22
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Front Rail Pins in the Key Frame

Hello Colleagues
Having just asked (on line) Susan Kline what her thoughts on the front rail key pins are, I thought I had really best put it to the membership.
An ex-client of mine has sent his Bechstein Upright piano for restoration following a deluge. Not an unusual event nowadays. The piano is a 1912 Model 10 and he is worried about the keyboard - looseness of the keys following the restoration. The person at the Piano Restorers says:
In all piano keyframes, these front-rail guide-pins are oval/elliptically shaped for the very purpose of enabling some sideways movement to be eliminated.
With which I disagree and believe the purpose for the ellipsoid cross section is to give a larger bearing surface and that to turn these pins in some form of regulation to get rid of sideways motion defeats the original purpose and will cause even greater wear.
Your thoughts please - the restorers are biting at the bit for payment!!
Michael Gamble  UK 15 July 2021

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------