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Unison smear?

  • 1.  Unison smear?

    Posted 11-29-2021 17:48
    Knabe grand a few decades old - so built in Asia. Serial number starts with YG...

    While I've observed unison smear in other pianos, (as humidity shifts individual strings of the unisons move by different amounts - sometimes even one going sharp and another flat...) this one is the most drastic example of that phenomenon.

    The owner is going to try room humidity control first, but this one will most likely require a full Dampp-Chaser with bottom and top covers to help...

    But here's my question: I'm having a hard time coming up with a hypothesis for what could cause it - any ideas? The best I've been able to imagine is if the pinblock is expanding and contracting; that way the pins farthest away would possibly push and pull more???

    Today was 32%, a few weeks ago was 45% The amount of smear was 10 cents or more around the middle of the piano... Crazy!

    Ron Koval


    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 19:13
    Ron 

    There are two possibilities. But first, is this your regular customer for whom you've been tunign for several years. or a first time client?

    Most of the time unisons go out is because of soundboard fluctuations. It doesn't take much of a fluctuation to cause unisons, and for that matter, the whole piano, to go out of tune. A slight shift in the pin block could be a cause, but only if it is not mated to the flange. 

    The other reason usinsons go out is because of the tuner not setting the pins and/or the strings. Even us seasoned veterans can miss one or two. 

    Installing a full DC system, complete with covers, might solve the problem you're dealing with.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 11-29-2021 21:05
    Ron, 

    I've corrected a number of Asian stencil grands whose front segments were impossible to tune with stability...of course by restringing and doing mor major work. Pic of the front segment? 




    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 21:30
    The unison shifts may possibly be related to lateral movement of the bridges as the soundboard changes with humidity.  We think of the bridges only moving up and down, but if there was any sideways pressure on them from the board expanding, that may explain why all the right hand strings go one way and the one on the left another, (or not so much).  The relationship of the backstring angle to the bridge pins may indicate pitch changes due to a sideways motion.  Idea was proposed by Ron Nossaman several years ago.
    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    Ed Foote RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 11-29-2021 23:33
    Thanks - 

    I'll have to take a careful look at the angles, but I think Ron Nossaman's idea may be on the right track. In Chicago, it isn't unusual to see homes that will swing 20-30% pretty quickly as the heat goes on and off. It is during these bigger shifts that this particular instrument goes haywire.

    Ron Koval

    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 11-29-2021 23:55
    Ron also advocated that the bridge cap swelled and pressed the strings further up the bridge pins in higher humidity, thus raising the tension/pitch. Conversely when the RH became lower.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Unison smear?

    Member
    Posted 11-30-2021 03:15
    I believe your Knabe may have been built by Young Chang at the time if the serial number lies between 05000 and 118750 This is the expanding action brackets territory and they may be the cause of the swings. Although seemingly unrelated to tuning stability it might be the place to start looking if any hammers are blocking or jamming against strings due to spread increase..A tuner can not set strings well if there is any hammer blocking during a forte blow.

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Magill
    Williamsburg VA
    757-220-2420
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 11-30-2021 08:04
    Several of us tried to duplicate Ron's results on his bridge pin experiment. None of us were able to duplicate his results.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-30-2021 09:48
    For a while, I made horizontally laminated bridge caps ala Nossaman, using West Systems Epoxy with .6 mm Maple lamina.  Ron claimed that the epoxy saturated the lamina all the way through - in effect, the epoxy would make the maple become a stable moisture barrier.  His claim was that the humidity swings we encounter were thus eliminated.  That was not the result for me.  Maple is a dense hardwood, and the density and small pores functions to inhibit the travel of glue into it.  Epoxy leaves a darker line indicating where the glue is.  Epoxy tends to leave a thicker appearing glue line than other glues. Still, it was obvious that only a small percentage of the thickness of the lamina was penetrated by the epoxy.  I pointed that out to Ron.  But Ron was right about most things, and he was never wrong.

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-01-2021 04:13
    Jim,
    Could you briefly describe your effort at testing Ron's work?

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 11-30-2021 11:12
    Just know that Dampp-Chaser has the under fabric at 60" (Part # GUM)(you could probably cut it shorter if needed) and you'd probably have to order it separately as in a recent email with them they mentioned this.​​

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Unison smear?

    Member
    Posted 11-30-2021 23:03
    I would suggest investing in a data logger and putting it in the piano for 2 weeks so it records 24 x 7 at 5 minute intervals. Graphs printed out will show what is exactly going on in a day . You only have 2 readings listed 32 and 45 % - Dampp Chaser's safety range is 40-50 % rh without big swings. The graphs generated by the logger will pinpoint what is going on and when Cold weather means the heat is on in the house . Heat makes it warmer but also lowers humidity . There may be times when it is below 32- a fact a data log will collect.  It would be advisable to have a full piano life saver system with the humidifier tank , smart heater bar and an undercover. its also important to  note the location of the heat vents and how close they are to the piano. HOT AIR heat is the driest heat and baseboard hot water is more comfortable and even. A room humidifier will also help but it needs to be away from the piano and have an automatic feature that monitors and reacts to the room rh.

    If the piano has the expanding action brackets you will want to replace them. The last set I did was on a PianoDisc piano built by Young Chang. The silver brackets had not yet crack but some of the paint was bubbling off. the piano was impossible to regulate and I had to pry the top stack out of the frame. The action spread was way greater than the spec. Once new brackets where in and the action spread was set it became easy to regulate

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-01-2021 11:21

    Blaine:

    Ron's hypothesis was, that:

    Since the front and back bridge pins are slanted at opposing, 18  deg angles (or close to that), a string, in tension, around those opposing contact points, is trapped in a very constrained geometrical relationship. If the string rides up or down those 18 deg angles, the length of wire across the bridge cap, would be put under increased or decreased tension. SInce the length of string across the cap is so short, only 15mm, any change in tension would be exaggerated.

    It assumes, that the strings create a divot in each bridge pin, in essence capturing the string at a particular location on that pin, if the pins move up and out of the bridge cap, with RH change, at opposing angles, they will add significant tension to the very small 15mm length of wire over the cap.

    This change in tension, the hypothesis reads, is what causes the RH reactive pitch changes we often  see, and not the board's rise and fall.

    In order for his hypothesis to be correct, the pins must be capturing the string, and the pins must drag the string with them, away from the cap, and at opposing angles to each other.

    The test was to try and quantify how much pins move in and out of the bridge with RH change.  Also it was to try and quantify whether a particular point on the pin, relative to the cap moved  in and out of the cap or not.

    We have all seen nails walk out of wood outside. His hypothesis is basically that concept.

    The problem is, in the "nail walking" scenario, the nail is a one way walk, it's not really cyclical, returning to zero every time it cycles.

    Ron felt that the cap is the zero point at which the pin is captured, and the bottom of the pin relation to the bottom of the hole is constantly changing.  HIs test was to determine whether the pin was captured in the top 3/8" of the cap, and moved up or down in the bridge root. My problem with this is that if the cap is always the zero point, then the pins don't walk relative to the surface of the cap. If they don't walk relative to the surface of the cap, then the opposing angles of the bridge don't change the length of wire over the cap.

    So, I was not able to confirm the cap was the zero point of movement. Even if I could have confirmed that, the hypothesis,  that scenario that the cap surface is the zero point doesn't physically makes sense to me geometrically.



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-01-2021 14:47
    As I understood Ron's hypothesis, it is the opposite of what Jim expresses. Ron, as I understood him, believed that the bridge pin is held more tightly deep in the root than at the surface, so that the bridge pin does not move up and down, relative to the center of the bridge.

    Rather, the surface of the bridge slides along the pin, rising with humidity rise and dropping with humidity drop. This pushes the string up and down, and the string gradually wears a divot into the pin along its path of travel along the pin. If the pin were rising and falling, the string would wear a simple groove, lot the longer divot we see in old bridge pins.

    But the pin itself does not move, it is the surface of the bridge that expands and contracts, sliding along the upper part of the pin.

    Part of his reasoning included the idea that the process of driving the bridge pin into the hole wallowed and enlarged the top part of the hole while the bottom section landed in with one last tap, and so, was held more tightly at the bottom.

    Perhaps someone can find Ron's writings on this.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-01-2021 15:29
    Hi Ed,

    This makes more sense than what I wrote.

    However, I distinctly remember in my conversations with Ron, his opinion that 1- the cap was zero point of movement...which makes no sense to me, and 2- that the foot of the pin does not have to be bottomed out in the hole, because the pin would be migrating up anyway. Both of these points seem contradictory.

    It would be useful to find his personal exposition of his hypothesis.

    Epoxy veneer laminations, aka Ron's procedure I have made, are no more or less pitch migratory than their solid cap counterparts. I stopped using them years ago.



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-01-2021 18:11
    Greetings,
       Seems I remember Ron opining that if there was a harder cap on the bridge, and the pin was not bottomed out in the hole, the pin/cap assembly would rest on top of the bridge as a unit and the expansion/contraction would occur in the softer bridge rather than the hardened laminate cap.  I remember it because we had some thread of a conversation about pin-blocks made in the same way and how he saw parallels between the function of the tuning pin/block and the bridge-pin/cap.  This was over a beer at a convention, somewhere.  I am pretty sure he had a lot of this in writing on the older list serve.
    Regards,


    ------------------------------
    Ed Foote RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-01-2021 18:49
    To me none of it really matters since the problem is solved with good climate control. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-01-2021 20:15
    Agreed, after much futzing with this.  I just use the best maple I can find...reclaimed stuff from honking thick work tops from the 40's, and recent vacuum kiln dried stock, which  I think is going to be real nice resonant stock.


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-01-2021 21:10
    Jim,
    Any reply to this (and I have one) would clutter up this thread.
    We could continue this off list or on a new thread.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-01-2021 22:01
    ok...start a new thread...it could be of general interest

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-02-2021 11:35
    I was involved in beta testing a humidity control system that sealed the bottom of the piano (plastic taped to the rim, foam around the nose bolts) and maintained the RH within + or - 1% (data logger in the cavity showed that this was true). This was on a Kawai RX-2, perhaps the most sensitive to RH variation in creating unison smear where right and left strings consistently move in the same manner, and with especially large differences in octaves 5 and 6. 

    I found, to my surprise, that the result of this installation was minimal, if it made any difference at all. I theorized that it must be exposure of the top of the soundboard and the bridge. I installed a string cover like Dampp-Chaser's undercover, and measured RH under it and in the room. Zero difference. I installed a thick wool string cover, doing my best to seal the edges. Zero difference. Tuning just as unstable, RH the same inside and outside.

    I have puzzled for decades about the unison smear in response to RH swings. I have concluded it has to the the bridge. Exactly what mechanism, I don't know. It may have something to do with bridge notching, how far the pin is from the center of the the bridge affecting how far it moves either fore/aft or laterally or both. One factor that leads me to this conclusion is that both grands and uprights exhibit this behavior, and both have the same bridge setup relative to this factor, though in other senses they are opposite (relative lengths of string between bearing and tuning pin, for instance).

    I am relatively convinced that the soundboard has little or nothing to do with it.

    Bottom line: I tell my customers that if they want tuning stability, they need to control RH in the room. Period.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Unison smear?

    Member
    Posted 12-02-2021 13:11
    Just a thought
    What puzzles me about the bridge being the culprit due to humidity changes,,,,,
    Why not just seal the areas that moisture can get into the bridge? edges of the glue joint and the cap can all be sealed as to not react to humidity. Temperature is another matter.
    Maybe that is why Ron put the pins in epoxy?? The moisture moves in and out through the point of energy transfer,, the pin. That is where you have the highest energy loss due to heat created by the kinetic energy going nowhere. That makes temperature a factor. ( sounds good? I'm so full of it sometimes, )
    I prefer super glue at the moment if they aren't too loose. I'm really not sure why but it sure sounds better.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-02-2021 13:44
    "Bottom line: I tell my customers that if they want tuning stability, they need to control RH in the room. Period." - Fred Sturm

    I totally agree with that. Also, with churches and institutions that can't, don't or won't control temp. & RH in the room, they just need to schedule regular tunings. I've gained some ground in this area and have convinced some to do that. It's made a lot of difference.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    www.thattuningguy.com
    PianoMeter, TuneLab, OnlyPure, PianoScope & PiaTune user
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-02-2021 14:47
    I used to tune a small Boston grand that was in a jazz club. It was fairly old, probably one of the original Boston models. The piano stayed in tune quite well except for the 5th and 6th octaves; not only did it consistently drop 5-10 cents but over the years about a quarter of the strings in that area broke. I don't think the temperature/rh fluctuations were too great and, being in the tropics, were always above 70º/50% and up to mid 80's for both temp and rh. 
     I tuned it once a month, pre-tuning the 5th & 6th octaves first, and the treble would go out in the first set it was played. It needed action work that the owner couldn't afford that probably contributed, at least he tried to keep it in tune. 
    I've always wondered, where does that energy (tension) go? One might think that sooner or later they system would stabilize but it doesn't. Perhaps the cabinet posts have unseen glue failures and the posts are "squirming"? The pinblock is moving? If the problem involves the bridge pins, wouldn't the damage accumulate over time to the point where it was visibly obvious? The bridge pins on the Boston appeared fine. 


    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-02-2021 15:01
    Steve,  The energy you speak of is contained, or as is often the case, inadequately contained in the front segment of wire...the entire length of wire between capo and tuning pin. Some front segments are so badly designed, Jesus Christ himself would not be able to tune them with stability. This calls for a redesign the bloody front segment , and reshape the capo to make the front segment render well. This makes it easier to read and install a known residual tension. I've done this on numerous Asian pianos, that were absolutely impossible to tune with stability.





    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-02-2021 18:45
    Total agreement on full room climate control. It's the entire structure that's involved. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-04-2021 15:00
    Jim,
    I wasn’t aware that piano tuner was on Jesus’ resume, haha!

    Do you have any pics you’d care to share of your reworking the front segment? I’d be willing to bet that one of them you did was on my favorite (sic) capo section front segments, the Kawai grand. (The video Floyd Gadd posted of your action trolley bench showed you single handedly reaching into the cavity to retrieve the action. I’ve only witnessed that possibility on Kawais.)

    Very curious how you solved reading the front tension!



    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 28.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-04-2021 17:24
    Joe,  That piano was a Chinese Hallet stencil grand (Dongbei) on the video.  That piano was one of the ones I re-worked the front segment on. That one was a partial success, as I was just getting my protocol down. Its way easier and predictable to tune now, but counter bearing friction was too low in the capos. I've figured that out better since then.

    Its a confluence of forces that make a front segment impossible to read. You have to read all the parameters on that piano..and they are all different model to model.  The diagnostic combines:

    -termination angle 
    -material of counterbearing...brass, cast iron, stainless (real pain), felt, 
    -radius width of capo, as opposed to an actual "V" shape
    -resolution of counterbearing angle to the pin...is it a second acute angle, or a minimal angle off counterbearing to the pin
    -length of front segment(s)
    -corrosion conditiions
    -how many miles of felt
    -angle of the slope
    -how deeply has the string worn into the counterbearing. because of acute angles
    -is there a double counterbearing (usually the worst setup for impossible to read front segments, as it adds a third segment to the front segment)
    -is there a metal counterbearing followed by stiff,understring felt...if so, how thick is the felt

    There are more probably. One reads all these conditions, which will be different on every piano model, and different in each section of each piano. One looks at the combination of front segment conditions and adjusts termination angles (grinding the plate), counterbearing ,materials (co-polymer on high termination angle problems), reduces capo and counterbearing contact areas, by making true V's not wide 1/4" or more radii, introduces friction when angles are too low, etc, etc. Its a chess game, on each piano and each section. Also keeping the pin torque controlled is a real help. High pin torque and a few challenging counterbearing conditions, make the front segment residual tensions real tough to read.

    The interesting thing is, that even if you absolutely never rebuild, and are exclusively a tuner, reading these physical attributes of the front segment, can seriously improve stability in a big way. It did for me. It makes it so you always know what you are up against, on every pin, and are never surprised. Since I worked this all out in my mind, plus the excellent discussion Fred Strum and David Love had a couple of years ago, about how the lever can be used to influence front segment forces, makes reading the forces in the front segment, including tuner forces, a clear and rational exercise.

    I want to put this all in an article..but I am so busy with other really cool experiments in the shop, I haven't had the time to sit down and write it..



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-04-2021 22:49
    Joe, here is an example of a high friction situation, another chinese lovely.  Low tenor, very high termination angle, riding over a very wide cast iron counterbearing. The strings not only penetrated the felt, but dug in deep through finish, base coat and iron. So you have the string, at a high angle, which means considerable down pressure, not only contacting the surface underneath, but a good third of the circumference of the wire is surrounding the wire like a real tight glove. The basic fiction, assuming a simple one point contact, is multiplied considerably by contact on the circumference of the wire. Look how long that contact area is, not to mention how much of the wires circumference contacts a hard surface.

    The fix...grind that counterbearing way down. Minimize distance the wire coming off the ground counterbearing is off the plate...so its much closer to the plate than previously. Reduce the radius of the counterbearing, cover the iron with "Slick Strip", then with high quality thin bushing cloth, not understring felt. This one is now normal to tune, and the whole instrument really sounds pretty amazing after various other existing board fixes we have been doing.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2021 11:49
    the excellent discussion Fred Strum and David Love had a couple of years ago, about how the lever can be used to influence front segment forces, makes reading the forces in the front segment, including tuner forces, a clear and rational exercise.


    Has anybody found this? Any ideas on a keyword to search for?


    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-06-2021 12:06
    Contact Fred or David directly. Fred has posted a link to the discussion several times...then post it here, as it really is a game changer.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Unison smear?

    Posted 12-06-2021 13:07
    John,
    I think this is what you are looking for.

    This is taken from a long discussion found here:

    http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=634052&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm104

    An edited version posted by Fred is more accessible:

    https://my.ptg.org/blogs/fred-sturm/2016/10/28/tuning-hammer-technique

    Hope this helps.  It certainly was very revealing for me.  I wish that Fred would write this up for the Journal.  

    John



    ------------------------------
    John Shriver
    Madison AL
    256-617-1179
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2021 16:17
    Wow! Ladies and Gentlemen if you tune pianos or want to tune pianos, you dang well better read David and Fred's post! David's exercise at the beginning makes it clear.


    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Unison smear?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-02-2021 21:33
    I used to tune a small Boston grand that was in a jazz club. It was fairly old, probably one of the original Boston models. The piano stayed in tune quite well except for the 5th and 6th octaves; not only did it consistently drop 5-10 cents but over the years about a quarter of the strings in that area broke.


    I serviced a small Kawai for years in a jazz club/restaurant.  Often I would only need to touch-up/tune the 5th octave in the treble while the rest of the piano stayed solid.  This is likely due to the melody and jazz lines being there so frequently.

    I was probably one of the reasons that they went bankrupt... if a restaurant does everything by the book and pays fairly they can't compete with skinflints and tight, hardnosed owners.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------