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Verdigris Experiment

  • 1.  Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2020 16:25
    Looking for participants for a verdigris experiment.  If you have action parts that are contaminated and wish to participate here are the procedures.  I'm interested to see if this procedure is effective and long lasting.  Use Steinway discarded hammer flanges that are affected by verdigris.  

    1.  Get six shank and hammer flange assemblies, the nastier the verdigris the better. Label them A, B, C, D, E and F. Measure the strike weight and modify so that each assembly is equal (somewhere around 9-10 grams SW preferred).  
    2.  Measure the resistance of the flanges with a gram gauge and record the data.  Also swing each assembly and record the number of swings (if any).  Hold the hammer at 3:00 and if it swings to 9:00 that's one swing.  Back to 3:00 is two swings.  Each swing counts until the hammer stops moving.  
    3.  Soak the hammer flanges in a narrow necked jar filled to cover the flange with Goof-Off.  You might want to put some foil over the mouth of the jar to slow evaporation and check to be sure the flange remains covered for the required time.  
    4.  Soak A, B and C for 24 hours and D, E and F for 48 hours.  
    5.  Once the flanges are dry, test again with a gram gauge and swing test and record the data.  
    6.  Put them in a paper bag and store somewhere for 6 months and measure again.

    Email me the initial data (after soaking) and, if you can remember, send me the data after 6 months.  davidlovepianos@comcast.net

    Note: Goof-Off is toxic so take necessary precautions.  

    Thanks.  

    Your data chart should look like this

      SW  Before soaking (g) Swings  After soaking (g) Swings   After 6 months (g) Swings
    A (24)                
    B (24)                
    C (24)                
    D (48)                 
    E (48)                
    F (48)                



    ​​​​

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Member
    Posted 10-27-2020 18:54
    I am interested in doing something like this but have had my own ideas on what I want to use as the treatment. Maybe I can follow your protocol to some extent . I am not sure how many S & S  assemblies I have but if you have six you can send me with nasty verdigris I will follow your procedure to the letter and be a tester. One thing I am wondering about is how to measure and modify the strike weight to get 9-10 grams

    In step 2 it may be good to clarify how you measure the flange resistance with the gram gauge - ie where you put the gauge.  also I was taught to measure the swings by holding the flange at 12 oclock raise the hammer felt to 3 oclock and let it swing.Any swing past 6 oclock counts as a swing.

    A client here has an S&S and the hsf where replaced however there are problems with the whippen flanges. New whippens where installed but the flanges where reused along with verdigris bushings. I am not sure if they repinned and rebushed but there was a ton of either talc or teflon all over the place.

    Susan Kline sent me a bunch of old verdigris Steinway HSF but i did not begin to do anything. Maybe I can follow my plan and you yours and in 6 months check/compare results ... If I have 12 I will do a split test...

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-28-2020 02:37
    Since the probable cause of the verdigris is acids from the fats used in the original treatment I have often wondered if an ammonia treatment wouldn't neutralize the acids.  An ammonia and detergent solution might remove enough of the fats and neutralize the acids enough to eliminate the verdigris.

    Its an easy enough experiment!

    Current Goof-Off is orange oil and is probably not very toxic.

    The old Goof-Off formula was mostly xylene which was though to be very toxic.  It was actually a contaminant of the xylene that was dangerously carcinogenic and that was removed, but Goof-Off went with orange oil which is considered non-toxic (anything is toxic in a  large enough concentration).
    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 10-28-2020 07:42
    My bottle of Goof-Off had a sludge formed around the base of the cap. So when it dries it gums up. I discarded it because CBL is more effective in removing labels and their glue residue.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-29-2020 12:39

    Not sure what kind of goof-off you had but the original formula doesn't do that.  There are several different Goof-off products.  The one I'm interested in is this one.  It does not gum up when it dries.  I think you were likely using some other product.

     

    https://goofoffproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ProStrengthRemoverMSDS.pdf

     






  • 6.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-28-2020 12:55
    My own experiments show that goof-off works quite well for this when the parts are soaked (the original formula, which is quite toxic--I don't know about the orange oil stuff).  I'm looking for others to perform the experiment as well.  I understand that people have their own opinions and treatments.  I'm not interested in that right now.  If you can perform the experiment great, if not, that's fine too.  I don't have enough parts to send them out to everyone.  I figure those who do action rebuilding may have these parts available to them.  

    https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/5686-GoofOffProfessionalStrengthMiracleRemover/

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-28-2020 16:28
    I use engine starting fluid (the kind with ether in it). That, combined with vigorous joint working and serious compressed air, cleans it up good. However, it ALMOST always comes back.

    Didn't we determine that it was the paraffin dipping that caused this?  I think it was James Kelly that produced an advertisement by SS where they actually admitted to this. 

    It seems that post clean out, followed by a pre-cut, rolled SS center pin (to eliminate exposure to open copper alloy) would be the best solution if replacement is not an option. 

    My .02

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-29-2020 02:11
    There is little in paraffin that could cause corrosion (In chemistry, paraffin is used synonymously with alkane, indicating hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH2n+2.  see Wikipedia, paraffin:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax).

    On the other hand, natural fatty acids such as tallow and vegetable oils contain an acetate group, which is essentially vinegar and can cause formation of copper acetate which is green (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_acetate).

    Treatment with ammonia should produce ammonium acetate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_acetate) which should be less corrosive.
    Add a little detergent and the verdigris should wash out with water.

    I doubt that an oily solution such as orange oil kerosene or naphtha (lighter fluid) would work.  I watched a dealer dose dozens of corroded Steinway actions with many, many cans of lighter fluid followed by baking them in the sun and it never worked.  You aren't removing the acids.
    A better solution is to replace the parts!


    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-29-2020 07:45
    Yes, I agree with replacement usually. 

    So, the acids are in...the cloth?  Now the rails turn green also. What would bring this about?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-30-2020 02:25
    It was probably the wood that was treated, but the treatment would wick into the bushing cloth eventually.
    Any treated wood that is in contact with brass (or copper) would eventually turn the brass green.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-30-2020 12:26
    David,

    That Goof off MSDS looks "wonderful".  ☺

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-29-2020 12:35
    Household ammonia is diluted with water which introduces another element into how the bushing will respond.  Anhydrous ammonia (99% pure) is very toxic to breath the fumes.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-30-2020 10:48
    My own "treat and keep the part in a bag for a year" experiment showed good results with.....
    (drum roll)...
    Rain-X.
    Haven't tried in real-world conditions though.

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-16-2021 07:50
    David,

    How has your research panned out?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-17-2021 00:20
    Honestly, there was apparently no interest. The flanges I treated remain free however.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-17-2021 07:41
    Treated with ammonia, goof off, or something else?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-18-2021 11:05
    A while back, I ran across a Steinway that was a verdigris disaster. So I built a 12 volt, 4 amp zapper. Colleague, Bob Anderson RPT gave me a bag of seized up Steinway hammers/shanks to experiment with. All the flanges were easily eased and typically came in at about 2 grams, 3 swings after zapping. I eased some with the zapper in combination with CPL. The treated hammers were stored in a zip lock a few months ago. A pulled some out today and found little change. Just for fun, I tried WD40 on an original seized sample. It loosened up immediately with no zapping required. Wow!

    Here's the rub: I went to the clients home with the intention of making their piano playable. The hammers did not respond nearly as well as Bob's samples. The flanges looked like they had been been re-pinned. Possibly, the composition of the center pins differed from what Steinway used and was more susceptible to verdigris. I managed to get the hammers to where they needed to be. I removed each hammer, scraped off the visible verdigris with a wire brush before treating. I tried different combinations of zapping, Wd40 and CPL and found no definitive difference. 

    It has been a month and next week I go back to tune and review the condition of the flanges. Will try some Rain-X, if needed. I'll report back.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2021 13:24
    What I found effective was Goof Off, their standard product and soaking the flanges.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-18-2021 16:38
    WD40 should be no where near a piano. It turns gummy after it dries and attracts dirt/dust.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-18-2021 17:35
    As a general rule, I agree. WD40 also creeps - or so I've heard. Having said that, it sure worked well on the my verdigris sample. It actually worked, too well. A tiny squirt on each side and the seized up flange now swings 5 times. That was 3 weeks ago. I'm not seeing any gum or dust buildup around the center pin. Just to verify that my experiment result was not an outlier, I pulled one of my few remaining samples and tried it again. Like the first test, it free it up totally. 

    Perhaps, others could try this simple test to see how and if it works for them.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2021 21:23
    WD40 is petroleum based. If you put it on wood, it will soften and weaken the wood. I've had to clean out flanges which had been sprayed liberally with WD40, and which were sluggish just like vertigris. The wood was soft and prone to break. DO NOT USE WD40 on wooden parts- EVER. Even if it gets the job done, and you leave with a check and kudos for a job well done, shortly thereafter the flanges will gunk up and become unusable and the piano won't play. I've freed up these old pianos where the last guy sprayed WD40 on it, and wish I'd just advised the customer to light it on fire. A waste of time. Honestly, the only proven method of dealing with vertigris is to replace the parts. Using Goof-Off and Rain-X might work, for now, but what about the future? What is this stuff going to do to the wood? We had a guy here in San Diego who used to put oil on bridge pins and everywhere in the piano, thus ruining them. Yes, I know, a flange and a bridge pin are different and have independent functions, but the effect is the same. Bridges are wood, and oil of any type will soften the wood and break it down. Same for flanges.
    The above is my experience, and if you can prove there is no harm done, I"m all ears. We'd all love to get rid of the vertigris once and for all, and keep the original parts if possible.
    Only time will tell.
    YMMV

    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Randy Prentice
    As a general rule, I agree. WD40 also creeps - or so I've heard. Having said that, it sure worked well on the my verdigris sample. It actually worked, too well. A tiny squirt on each side and the seized up flange now swings 5 times. That was 3 weeks ago. I'm not seeing any gum or dust buildup around the center pin. Just to verify that my experiment result was not an outlier, I pulled one of my few remaining samples and tried it again. Like the first test, it free it up totally.

    Perhaps, others could try this simple test to see how and if it works for them.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788





  • 22.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 12:44
    Jon Page and Paul McCloud are absolutely correct. It has been well known for at least 45 years that WD40 is very bad for pianos. Don't insist on repeating the errors of the past. Please.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-18-2021 17:44
    How long do you soak the flanges, David Love?

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 02:28
    See the first post in this thread.  I outlined the experiment there.  The batch I did I believe I soaked over night.  The problem is that Goof-off evaporates pretty quickly so you have to do as I suggested above for the purposes of the experiment.  How you do this in real life remains to be seen.  I just wanted to see if anyone else had the same result that I did.  Not sure of the practical application yet.  Mostly when I run into verdigris I just change the parts out, rebuild the action, as it were.  But there are times when a customer can't do that so I looked for an alternative.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 01:50
    Dave,
    Yes, but if the real problem is an acid floating around in the wood and felt that is corroding the brass pins then only neutralizing the acid will work and ammonia MIGHT neutralize the acid (still waiting for the test).

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 07:56
    Blaine,

    What would be your suggestion for a test, specifically? What do think it would take to neutralize the acid (or whatever)? How would one know (other than waiting around for a year or two) if it worked?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 14:07
    Try this test:
    Treat with WD40
    Treat with Goofoff
    Treat with ammonia
    New parts

    Which will work better?

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 14:17
    Treat with WD40? How about "Treat with plutonium," "treat with sarin." No thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 21:11
    How about: Treat with CLP until the customer will spring for new parts!

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-20-2021 14:22
    With a mild case of verdigris, CLP will work - to a point. But the sluggishness tends to return, at least part, after a few months. With my current situation, the client is not interested in doling out $2500 for new hammers and shanks. Their Steinway needs a rebuild from top to bottom. They understand that and allow me to use it as a research project because the cost is minimal compared to a rebuild. Having said that, because it is a Steinway, it still has decent tone and is worth my time to experiment, learn and get it playable.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-20-2021 01:17
    Plutonium and sarin might work, but I would recommend new parts.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-19-2021 20:38
    If it is an acid that needs to be neutralized, the parts could be dipped into a weak lye solution and left to dry.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-20-2021 03:20
    I'm just not convinced that neutralizing the acid is the most important thing. If this comes about due to animal fats impregnated in the bushing cloth then removing the fats should address the problem. Anyway I was interested in this particular product.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-20-2021 09:27
    Not to belabor this much further but:

    Has anyone, anywhere, at any time actually chemically analyzed the green goo we call verdigris?  WHAT EXACTLY is it? So many theories...what are the facts?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-20-2021 20:36
    It is copper acetate:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_acetate

    The acid group of a fatty acid degrades to an acetate or acetic acid (like vinegar) and that acid reacts with the copper in the flange pin to make copper acetate.

    Any natural fat or oil (animal or vegetable) contains an acid group and will create an acid.

    Mineral oil does not have the acid group and will not normally corrode, though wood can degrade to produce an acetate with humidity.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-22-2021 08:16
    Thank you Blaine. 

    And according to Wikipedia one of the solvents is ether. This explains why the engine starting fluid in fact dissolves the stuff (as long as it contains diethyl ether). Bob Bartnik (from whom I learned this method) made it quite clear that ether had to be an ingredient for this to work. One must keep the part very wet and worked, then vigorously blow with compressed air to get it out. Repeat as needed. Often the result is then a loose bushing that must be dealt with. This is VERY smelly and must be done outdoors. 

    Of course the stuff comes back like with all other methods, but the speed and severity of it varies from action to action.  So I wonder if a follow up treatment with ammonia might be beneficial as you have mentioned. Would household diluted ammonia may be do the trick?

    EDIT: This also explains with the industrial strength Goof Off works.  The MSDS shows ether in several forms in this stuff.  #

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-22-2021 11:03
    Peter,
    It seems likely that the reason that the verdigris always returns is because ether solves copper acetate but fails to solve and remove or neutralize the acidic fats and oils that are apparently the root cause the of the problem. However if the root cause of the problem is addressed by removing, or transforming the offending fats and oils with something like lye, the verdigris will not be likely to return. In any case I think that parts would still need to get new pins and bushings. Just a suggestion.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Verdigris Experiment

    Posted 03-20-2021 12:14
    Lye will saponify the fats and oils, neutralize the acid, and likely remove the them in the process. I recommend a weak lye, because something really strong, (like sodium hydroxide from the hardware store) will probably excessively dry out the wood and strip too many oils causing cracking. I would recommend making a weak lye from wood ashes mixed in water (potassium hydroxide). I may try it..I think I have some verdigris parts here somewhere.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------