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breaking strings at da capo bar

  • 1.  breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-04-2021 22:09
    Greetings and Happy New Year to All with lots of health, joy and happiness.

    One of my customers bought a new Yamaha GB1 in 2005 and the strings in the treble section keep breaking (different gauges), all at the capo d'astro bar which is a weird place to break after 15 yrs of use.
    Could this possibly be because the bar was not polished properly?
    Thank you,
    Peter
    Janssen Piano Services
    678 416 8055

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 2.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2021 23:16
    Two things

    One, the G1 series is a small, student student size recreational instrument. 
    Two, The piano player is a serious pianist who pounds the daylight ouit of the piano, using the dampaer pedal constantly. 

    The piano is too small her her/him. No matter what what you do, it will not solve the broken string issue. If you increase let off, she'll just pound harder to get more sound. If you soften the hammers, same thing. 

    Short of teachign him to play softer, he needs a bigger instrument.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 02:17
    This is the sort of thing that I've been talking about for a long time in the decline of musicality caused by tuning, and by the mush of sound that the tuning causes in the use of the damper pedal leading to it being operated like a kick-drum pedal.

    If the tuning
    a. makes a more interesting sound, a musician is more likely to listen to it, listen to the music and respond more musically leading to greater reward than is obtained by mere pounding of the instrument
    b. gives resonance so that the instrument is louder
    c. removes the mush from sustain, sustain can be used for more than mere chord amplification
    and the piano becomes more of a musical instrument than a circus act.

    However, strings breaking at the Da Capo or at the Agreffe can do so because of metal fatigue. That may be due to the pounding of the instrument. But it can be due also on account of a sharper angle kinking the string, and the number of times the string has been pulled backwards and forwards through that angle in the course of tuning, and of course the metallurgy of the string and the effect of a kink under strain. It could be on account of the metallurgy quality of the strings used at that time.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 4.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 06:46
    Petrus - Several things. Whereas I don't have first-hand account of the the shape of Yamaha capo bars, my understanding is that they have a bit of a sharp edge to them and that shape is why treble strings break on a Yamaha grand more often than most grands. I do service many Yamaha grands and have seen that indeed, treble strings do break more often than other pianos. I have broken treble strings several times on Yamaha grands (mostly C3s) while tuning.

    Wim - Whereas the G1 is indeed a small piano, and indeed it is a lower-end piano, I would tend to refer to it as a small lower-end piano rather than something less than a piano. Based on what Petrus shared with us, do we really know that the "piano player is a serious pianist who pounds the daylight ouit of the piano, using the damper pedal constantly"? Do they use the dampers way up in the high treble section also? Too small? Yes, you are correct that a larger instrument, all else being equal, will be louder because of longer string length/mass, but way up in the high treble there really isn't very much difference in string length/mass - all pianos have about the same C88 string length.

    Needs a bigger instrument? To decrease sting breakage? Like I have observed on many Yamaha C3s?

    Sorry to target you Wim - I still like you and generally love to read your input!!!!!!  Kinda disagree with a few points this time......


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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
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  • 5.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 07:35
    Hi Peter,

    In my experience working in institutions, when the strings are getting tired, they usually break at the capo section. Especially that area being the melody area. 
    I usually restring the top two sections, while keeping the same tuning pins (if they are tight enough). 

    Then you're good for another decade or so.

    Best,

    Victor Belanger RPT
    Belmont, MA

    Greetings and Happy New Year to All with lots of health, joy and happiness.

    One of my customers bought a new Yamaha GB1 in 2005 and the strings in the treble section keep breaking (different gauges), all at the capo d'astro bar which is a weird place to break after 15 yrs of use.
    Could this possibly be because the bar was not polished properly?
    Thank you,
    Peter
    Janssen Piano Services
    678 416 8055

    ------------------------------
    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
    ------------------------------





  • 6.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 07:54
    Thank you all for replying, 
    My customer is using the piano multiple hours each day as he is studying piano. He plays softly and loudly when the music dictates so.
    The piano is in a small room of 12' × 12' with hardwood floors and no sound absorbing items. The lid is in the full open position.
    I just had not seen any other piano in high performance areas ( university,  schools, recording studios, teachers), break strings at the capo bar in those two treble section with or without dampers.
    Thank you,
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 7.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 08:00
    Chances are its not the sharp shape of the capo rather than that the capo is probably hardened. In my own work, I bring non-hardened capos to a V with a shy .05mm land. Its a key part of the treble tone development. I've never had a rebuild client break a string. The combination of hard hammer, and hard termination, combined with aging strings and, no doubt some attendant corrosion, is probably the culprit. 

    I have not scaled a G or GB-1 up there, so I don't know the tensions for sure, but I also suspect that the capos are pushing the BP%.

    With Terry, I also disagree with Wim's comment re small pianos. String lengths and scaling in a small piano, in the capos, is pretty darn similar to larger pianos. The scaling difference happens mainly from the tenor down.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 8.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 08:46

    How are the hammers?  Deeply grooved or large strike area can also aid in string breakage.

     

    Paul






  • 9.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-06-2021 04:49
    Jim I stated: "I bring non-hardened capos to a V with a shy .05mm land."

    Would you be so kind to expand on this a bit?


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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 12:48
    This could also be how the piano player plays the piano. Some of them use a sharp blow. I don't know how to explain it, except that the playing method makes the strings break.

    We had a jazz pianist in St. Louis for many years with that kind of playing technique. He was notorious for breaking strings on most of the pianos he played. He was the pianist at the Lobby resturant of the Adams Mark Hotel in downtown St. Louus where I was the tuner. Before he started the gig there we no broken strings. Within a week after he started strings started breaking all the time. After he left the piano was fine.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 11.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2021 11:00
    Two experiences of my own that I will share:  A Yamaha C3 in a jazz club broke strings like crazy.  An associate restrung and soon after strings were breaking again.  I do not know of Vbar redressing or hammer condition.  Next case I am intimately familiar with.  Steinway M in jazz club played 7 nights.  Tuned at least weekly, every time there was at least one, usually more, broken strings.  Management for a long time wouldn"t listen to me but finally I got their ear.  The piano had Abel Encore hammers, quite worn, hammer pinning useless from worn out bushings - imprecise hammer blow.   Regulation not good.  I finally was able to rebuild the action with Steinway hammers, regulated, etc.   String breakage after - minimal.  Finally, replaced pinblock, redressed Vbar.   Never had another broken string still years later.  As mentioned , hard hammers and, importantly, shape are hugest contributors.  After a broad strike surface has been hitting a string for a while, the metal becomes fatigued.  Even a soft blow can be the killer blow when  the string has reached that fatigue point.  So back to hammer shape - how is it on this piano.  Regulation?  For a piano in service, Jim's technique probably isn't going to be in order . Using broken file pieces to dress the bar, yes.  Grinder ?  Maybe.  I would consider restringing to get rid of fatigued metal, correcting strike point shape. Softening strike point.  Also, how is string level and hammer fit.  Hitting all three strings evenly spreads out the impact force.  And. of course, letoff and drop appropriately set.  The Steinway was night and day different just from the action rebuild.  Every week and in between I had been in there replacing strings - no more.  The C3, I took over tuning after my friend moved so I saw the continued breakage but not being involved in his work I think the example is pretty useless.

    Gary Ford

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    Gary Ford
    Boston MA
    617-536-0526
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  • 12.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2021 11:15
    Hi.  On one particularly popular Hamburg D-274 from the mid-80s, all original in every respect, had annoyingly regular string breakage in 5th & 6th Octave range.  

    Finally, so sickening had it become, we measured (mic'd) every wire in the last two sections.  Findings?  They were semi-uniformly undersized by ½ gauge. �� Why?  WTF knows. Even super factories err?

    But we restrung to spec., and case was closed, at least until that unit was sold. "Out of sight, out of mind."


    R

    Ricard de La Rosa
    President & Co-Founder (1969)
    Pro Piano





  • 13.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 08:56
    Mr. Jansen,
    I work for a piano teacher with a  22 yr old C2. It started breaking strings at the capo around 12 years in and got worse over time. Often the replacement (Roslau) wires would break multiple times on the same note. The teacher has a clientele of high end students  and the instrument is in heavy use up to 12 hrs a day. I re-strung the top 2 sections 2 years ago with Paulello XM wire and none have yet broken. Might not be the answer but I thought I'd  mention it.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 14.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 09:50
    Let me echo Jim's and Karl's posts.  I have a client with a Kawai RX2 that had persistent repeated string breakage throughout the treble section over many years.  I reshaped the capo bar using David Love's protocol, then re-strung with Paulello XM.  More than a year and a half later, no strings have broken.  My client is very pleased.  


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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 15.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 15:00
    I've had several piano owners who were breaking strings because they were overplaying the instrument. At least two complained that the piano was defective. In one case the customer finally listened to me and the manufacturer, understood, and upgraded to a larger piano. Problem solved. In another, the customer had purchased a small entry level upright but his kids were incredibly talented power players. Their teacher insisted that the loud parts be played as powerfully as possible, and they would break plain wire strings weekly on this new piano. They wouldn't listen to either me or the manufacturer and I finally had to walk away. On a third piano I have to agree with Wim. Customer had a new Yamaha U3 and instantly started breaking bass strings at the top termination point. She, too, was a power player, but admitted that much of her banging was not because she wanted it loud but that it was a way to express aggression. With her approval I increased let-off by a good 1/4". The result, while I never would have accepted it on my piano, was that she didn't have to change how she played, stopped breaking strings and actually loved the change in performance. I still tune for her. She hasn't broken a string since and insists I leave the regulation as is. 

    An interesting demonstration is to show the customer how a string behaves at the termination point with how a wire bends. With the customer that I could not help I used a wire coat hanger as an example. I held one end of the coat hanger wire with a pliers and sort of plucked the wire as a demonstration of how a normal string should behave. With that minimal amount of movement there should almost never be a problem at the termination point. But, with excessive hard playing that wire moves much further and is actually bending at the termination point. Still holding the coat hanger with the pliers I then bent it back and forth a bit more aggressively and within a minute or so I had successfully broken the coat hanger wire at the pliers termination point. I saw by their faces that they understood what I had demonstrated but then they immediately went back to insisting the the piano was defective. It's a good demonstration of what's actually going on but you still have to have an audience that's willing to accept the results for it to be effective.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 16.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 17:52
    It's a little like drivers who accelerate aggressively and then stomp on the brakes at the last minute. They just can't figure out why they have to replace their brakes every 10k miles and their tranny fails at 35k. Must be defective.  Operator error. 😩

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 18:34
    I restrung a 1965ish Yamaha G3 using Paulello XM in the treble.  Working from Paulello's "Typogram",  I see that using standard wire, F6 (157mm/.9mm) would be at 85% of breaking tension.  Using Paulello XM,  the wire of the same diameter and same tension (and, I understand, same inharmonicity) is sitting at 69% of breaking tension.  Am I using the right language to describe this?  The chart lists the column in question as Stress %.  In any case, I see this as a significant advantage.  A great tool to have in the toolbox.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 18.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 19:48
    yeah...Paullelo's "stress weight" is BP%

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 22:42
    Most Yamaha's I have tested have hard metal at the capo bars. It is hard enough that it also is abrasive in nature, and as you tune flat spots are worn in the wire at the V-bar. Some Steinway's also have this issue. And a few Kawai's from the 1980's that I have seen. Too round V-bars make the wire flex rather than pivot, this increases elastic deformation too.

    I have also come to believe that many factories damage new piano wire during the stringing/chipping process. This doesn't show up as string failure for many years. Then there are some wound scales that place the BP too high and this makes for easier breakage.

    I think if a piano is designed with proper BP, termination points, wire type and stringing/chipping processes; string breakage would be rare and we wouldn't be tempted to tell people they can't play the piano with full force.

    That said, I still can't fully explain why the gospel style of playing will break wound strings so readily. I suspect chaos theory is involved.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 20.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-05-2021 23:01
    Floyd...are you sure about that F6 157mm?  That's crazy long and super high tension 216 in/lb...crazy high...you sure about that measurement?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2021 23:04
    Edward, octave tremolos in the bass.
    Btw, what do you think is being done in the factories that damages the wire?

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 22.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-06-2021 08:52
    Terry,  Ed has been doing this for years. It is an important part of my termination conditions for numerous reasons. Also as the tone of my instruments is finally approaching my "grail" tone consistently, this is part...not all...but part of the attention I now lavish on optimizing termination conditions. It:  

    1- helps encourage a pivot termination, which in my model, given the stiffness of high tension wire, is a more efficient termination, rather than the semi-clamped, restrained termination a wide radius presents
    2- allows the string itself, given the point load on the actual termination, to self machine the shape of the actual termination into the capo or agraffe
    3- benefits rendering, reducing long term friction at the termination, depending on the contact radius area, potentially, by an order of magnitude
    4- assures on the speaking length, that transverse wire movement does not inadvertently cause portions of wire near the termination to contact the cast iron and make noise
    5- the pivot is, as Ed said, easier on the wire. encouraging a pivot rather than flexing the wire as it vibrates

    As a side note, look at Fazioli treble terminations...a sharp V shape (point of a triangle) triangle extrusion, both as an insert under the capo bar and as treble counter-bearing...a dream to tune, outstanding treble response 

    As far as accomplishing it, I just flip the plate, and use a combination of die grinder and mill file to remove whatever radius is there at the termination, bring it to a point. Then, after I have a sharp point, very gingerly create a 0.5mm wide flat at the point of the V. I don't try and save the old string marks, as I am often re-spacing strings a bit. 

    Getting one's hands in there with a file can be uncomfortable, so I have taken a file, clamped it in a vice, and whacked it off with a hammer to create several small files which are easier to manipulate in that area.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 23.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-06-2021 10:18
    Jim, as to your question on my string length,  here is a part of the page from the  Typogram I filled in for this piano.  Your question makes me inclined to go measure it again after all these months.  I happen to be moving that piano today between rooms.  I'll open it up and measure it once I've got the legs back on.  The piano was restrung due to extreme rusting of strings, but it had been in that state with the original strings for several years with no breakage. 



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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 24.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-06-2021 10:29
    Here's what I have recorded as the scaling as measured from the strings that I removed from the Yamaha G3 (ser # ​522096).  Last column is string diameter in thousandths.  We have another G3 (403968) for which I have recorded measurements for F6 as 155mm/.035" .


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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 25.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2021 13:53
    I would certainly agree with Wim that player technique can be responsible for treble string breakage. A professor at the college where I work constantly breaks strings on a rebuilt 1918 Steinway B. He is teaching remotely from his home this semester, and I have yet to encounter a broken treble string. Students are using the piano regularly, and when the professor is there to demonstrate, they too, break strings.

    I have never broken a string while playing, and perhaps only one or treble strings at the capo in 20 years of tuning, including periods where I pounded quite hard to settle the pitch.

    The classical and jazz students almost never break bass strings, but musical theater piano accompanists regularly break them, even in the small, 5’x 5’ practice rooms.

    Who wants to bet that Elton John breaks a lot more bass strings than Lang Lang?

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 26.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-06-2021 14:47
    It's a matter of frustration according to an Italian concert pianist friend that in Italian conservatoires pupils are taught that they cannot play or are not playing correctly Liszt unless they do break strings. 

    What a state musicianship has descended into. 

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 27.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Posted 01-06-2021 14:57
    Excessive use of the "Tempo Pedal".

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 28.  RE: breaking strings at da capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2021 17:21
    Some players have a specific "repetition rate" that sets up a convulsion situation in strings and then at some point they hit it at just the right moment when the string just can't take it any more. Snap!

    Force and repetition rate combined (it's part of their style), pretty much like the singer that shatters glass...that'll do it. Add wire fatigue and all the other stuff talked about...

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------