Pianotech

Back to discussions
Expand all | Collapse all

Tight tuning pin dilemma

  • 1.  Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 12:59
    Here's a situation.  Working on a newly rebuilt Steinway D, the pins are sooooo tight I'm actually considering decoupling them from the strings, spinning them out, reaming the block, and driving in a new pin and reconnect the strings, etc.  The problem seems to have arisen because the drill bit used was too small plus the length of the pin was increased to 2.5" for some reason.  That combination has the pins both flexing and snapping all over the place.  Argh.  I've worked with it for 6 months but doing a fine tuning is still a real wrestling match and if the piano drifts a couple cents flat or sharp that correction is a nightmare.  I've got very good hammer skills, it's not that.  So I'm considering more drastic methods.  I'd probably have to do this on site as well.  I think I know what has to be done but am open to any other suggestions.  What is the obsession with tight pins?  I don't get it.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 14:00
    Hi David

    Just spray WD-40 on the pins, and all will be well.   (Big Grin, of course.)

    My inclination is to do what you're thinking of doing. It could be that the holes were drilled for a 2/0 pin, but strung using 3/0, and 2.5" at that. The problem is, when you remove the pins, that process will enlarge the holes, and now 2/0 will be too big. So you'll have to use 3/0 again. (or 1/0 holes were drilled and 2/0 used). Have you considered, instead of removing the pins altogether, you detach the string, and severely move the pin back and forth, until the pin feels looser.  In either case, having to do it on site will be a challenge, not just to do the work, but to come back numerous times to retune the piano. Not to mention that strings will break in the process of removing them from the pin.

    You don't say when the piano was rebuilt. I hope the customer is willing to pay for this.  Would he/she be open to replacing the pin block?

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-13-2020 14:07
    hello Wim,
    would it help to turn each pin several times, a quarter turn anti-clock wise followed by a quarter turn clock-wise for maybe 10 times?
    Peter

    ------------------------------
    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-13-2020 14:52
    Do you have an uptorque reading.  I've just submitted an article to journal on this very issue, complete with torque adjustability factors, measurement protocols,and exercising protocols. 

    Exercising the existing pins works, but the torque can't be too crazy high...like 200-225 uptorque (at tension with strings on). You might have to do it several times if the thing is really high. But the key to knowing what you have achieved in exercising, is to wait to measure your results. Wait first an hour or so, for things to cool down, then the next morning, for wood fibers to relax somewhat and the pin deformation to regain its original shape. Wait for this pin/bock equilibration to occur before deciding whether, and how much to exercise again. I usually don't take the wire out of the becket, but that might make sense in this case.   

    fabricate a very long handled lever to make it so you don't have to add a couple of chiropractor sessions to your quote. my lever is 24" long 

    also make sure the torque is not being caused by the front of the pin grinding into the plate webbing...something i often see on factory steinways.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 17:13
    I don't but it's well over 200lbs. It's whole body engagement to move the pins.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 14:53
    2/0 pins but too small a bit for this block. Done about a year ago. I've not found that working the pin in these situations is effective. Just makes them jumpier.                      ​

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-13-2020 18:16
    you might try a couple experiments. Like, remove wire from becket, and with a pin socket in a driver drill. back out the pin an inch, and then screw it back in...maybe several cycles, but give it time before measuring results. 

    Another possibility, if it is that tight, is to remove the pin, and insert a same size 2-3/8" pin.  My experience with increasing pin diameter in these situations  is it just cranks the torque right back up where you started.  Really, the only thing to do, especially on-site, is set up a series of experiment pins, setup with different torque adjust-ability parameters and run the experiments. also try different manufacturer's pins, as the same size torque differently manufacturer to manufacturer.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 18:44
    I faced a similar situation a couple of years ago, on a Steinway M, and went in prepared to try a host of remedies gleaned from this list. I started with the simplest (suggested by Jon Page, if memory serves), many back and forth rotations of the pin with an elongated lever. It worked! And these pins all had well over 200 inch pounds of torque to begin with. (David, like you, I have no idea why anyone would do that intentionally.) Alternate arms, and there is no need to do push ups the next day!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-13-2020 20:00
    Somewhere in the archives is what I had to do to relieve tight pins. I could change the pitch 20c before the pin would move in the block. It's a beautiful piano to tune now and very stable.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 21:40
    I have used the slow, back and force with pausing technique on tight pins with success always except with blocks that I suspect were treated with epoxy.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2020 21:46
    How far do you turn the pins in the back and forth method?

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 01:10
    Hi Steve

    When I've done this, I turn the pin at least a quarter turn.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-14-2020 07:50
    I started by lowering each pin a half turn. Then each pin received 30 half turns, 20 in the bass. Place the hammer at 9:00. Pull to 6:00 with right hand/push to 3:00 with left hand. Pull to 6:00 with left hand/push to 9:00 right right hand. It's a continuous motion.  I needed to take a small break periodically.

    While the tension was down, I installed Counter Bearing Aliquots in the tenor section.

    You'll feel in the turning pin when to stop using the pin to ream the block.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 11:49
    If you try to "size" the tuning pin fit by the pin "exercise" method. You must be patient.

    First move down is about a half step and don't try to turn the pin as fast as you can, rather do it about a slow as you can. Then as you slowly raise the pitch back, if it still feels tight, stop and go back down the same amount you went up and try coming back again. If you move the pins too quickly down and back you risk "glazing" the pinhole and likely have jumpy pins. This is the old way of chip tuning at Steinway. The chip tuner was responsible for pin feel as well as putting the piano at pitch.

    Leave the wound string pins as tight as you can bear it. Better long term value for the piano owner.

    I would never investigate any fluid to do this job. The cost of failure is too high for me to stomach.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 10:52
    Could there be a fluid that one might drip into the tuning pin hole to loosen it? Something like an alcohol, that could swell the hole , not affect the tuning pins(rust), and hopefully not damage the wood(much).  This is an experiment to try on a junker upright...  
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    -Matt Crudo, RPT 
     



    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 01:52
    Hi David,

    Curious as to what type pinblock material is involved.  I had a European piano with way too tight pins using a Delignit block several years ago.

     The piano had other issues,  the board wasn't properly glued to the rim and it had other glue joint failures, but the Delignit block was very consistantly too tight.  After replacing the board, the shanks and hammers and a few miscellaneous other issues, we tried repinning part of the treble wire scale with the original size pins. It felt great. Torque turned out in a very acceptable range.  No reaming or boring, just repinning. So we decided to keep the original plank and just kept stringing.

    Might be worth a small experiment. Back the pins up enough to decouple and then get the pins out quickly to minimize scorching the holes. Repin with original diameter, maybe 1/8" shorter pins.  I would think that a couple unisons would suffice for a quick assessment. 

    Dale Fox
    Sacramento chapter 



    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 02:24

    I was able to determine that it was a multi-Lam block, but not Delignit, thankfully. And they are 2 1/2" pins. 


    Of course my preference is neither to have to remove the pins or even decouple them. So I'd be curious from Jon or Ed if you could elaborate on your back and further technique, how far, how fast, how many times. 

    One thought I've had, though I don't quite have the cajones to try it, was to run some current through each pin and heat the pin in the block for second or two. The heat would expand the pin and thereby enlarge the hole. When the pin cools and shrinks it should be looser. Anyone ever try that?  



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 02:57
    David,

    That's an interesting idea, but unless you take the coils off the pins, won't you be heating the strings and plate, too? I suppose if you clip one contact to the top of the pin, and put a probe up from under the block to the bottom of the pin, that would complete the circuit without electrifying the whole thing. Um, I don't really know, but I would want to before frying I mean trying it. 

    Mark Schecter
     | |   | | |   | |   | | | 




    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-14-2020 10:11
    I don't think heat is where you want to go. My take is that heat glazes the wood, and the reduced resiliency of the wood leads to creaks and jumps. In fact, if I were to back the pins out or exercise, I would do it in a way that heats the system as little as possible. I back out pins only a couple of rotations, then go to the next pin up and down the block, interatively backing them all the way out ...to avoid glazing.

    I'd like to hear what Ed's (Mcmorrow's)exercising technique above, was, in detail, as is sounds a little different than mine.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 12:32
    I'm not recommending this on a high end piano but feel like sharing something that saved me a lot of trouble with an older piano in a country church. People can comment as to whether this is more or less wise in various situations. Only three pins on this piano were tight, but they were so tight you could barely move them. A tuner before me broke one, and never told them. I replaced that one, but I couldn't imagine the other two not breaking because of how tight they were. I called a friend who recommended I put a drop of Lube in through the pin bushing. I think I used Pro Lube centerpin cleaner. It didn't take long to loosen the pin up to be able to move it, but it has stayed on the tight side so holds a pitch just fine.  like I said, I don't know that I would use this on a good Steinway, but it might give someone an idea. 🤷‍♀️

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 13:25
    I hope in the future technicians will use Jon Page's protocols, especially if it's a limited # of pins. Fluids + tuning pins, bad concept - exception being CA when there's no torque. ​

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 17:50
    In this case it's the entire piano that is a problem.  The bass I can live with but doing any kind of fine tuning in the upper half of the piano is very difficult.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 18:47
    Patrick - You're right, & most would agree, except the 2 techs who recommended I try that crazy idea. I know it's insane, but these 2 fellows know their stuff. Having said that, I won't name them because where I might get a "bless your heart" & a pat on the head, they'd be crucified. That piano has been fine. BUT, I only shared to see what response I'd get, not to recommend it on a Steinway. Thanks for adding wisdom. ;-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 24.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 17:47
    Mark

    I was thinking of that center pin zapper that was made by Francis Mehaffy (maybe).  It ran a current through the center pin which heated the bushing and eased it.  So it got me wondering if that might not work on a tuning pin.  Not sure how I'd deliver the current exactly.  I don't think heating up the string or the plate would be a problem, not likely they would heat up much, certainly the plate wouldn't.  The string might but I don't see that as an issue for the string or the bridge.  Thinking out loud.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 25.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 17:56
    David

    As Mark said, you have to complete the circuit. Just putting one end on the top of the pin won't do anything, It's not impossible, but you have hold on to the two ends and then turn on the electricity. That's after you've made sure one end is on the same pin as the other end. And the zapper was very low current because all the zapper had to do is heat up the felt. For the current to have enough energy to heat the block sufficiently to do any good, you will have to use a higher current. (Either volts or watts. I can never remember which does what).  Again, it's not impossible, but the probability of electrocuting yourself are pretty high.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 26.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 18:13
    You could try using 12 volts with a car battery. A dead short across the pin would heat it up pronto. You'd have to have a really good connection with large gauge cables and a good connection to the pin. The cable would get pretty hot too, I imagine, if you did a bunch of them. Hook up some jumper cables to a pin and see if it gets hot, then try pounding it into a piece of pinblock and zap it to see what happens. It might glaze the hole if it got hot enough, for better or worse.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

    Willem Blees:

    David:

    As Mark said, you have to complete the circuit. Just putting one end on the top of the pin won't do anything, It's not impossible, but you have hold on to the two ends and then turn on the electricity. That's after you've made sure one end is on the same pin as the other end. And the zapper was very low current because all the zapper had to do is heat up the felt. For the current to have enough energy to heat the block sufficiently to do any good, you will have to use a higher current. (Either volts or watts. I can never remember which does what). Again, it's not impossible, but the probability of electrocuting yourself are pretty high.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789



    Original Message


  • 27.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 21:07
    Paul, a word of caution.  It's actually a very dangerous thing being proposed. 

    It sounds plausible until the math is done. 

    P(Watts) = E(volts)x I (Amps)

    A dead short across a car battery at approximately 13.2 volts x anywhere from 400-700 amperes is going to produce power (Watts) of between 5000 to 9200.  

    This is far more wattage than an arc welder and would actually cause catastrophic damage and heat.  Part of the tuning pin might actually vaporize at this level of current.

    The Mehaffy version of this for heating centerpins was a very low wattage system which quite frequently was turned up too high by inexperienced techs.  

    Sounds good, but please don't!!  Not worth a trip to the ER. 


      







    Original Message


  • 28.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 23:38
    Hi Dale:
    Duly noted, thanks. Yes, it would be a LOT of amps and watts. The doorbell transformer used in the zapper circuit wouldn't be enough. A larger transformer would get real hot and likely burn up after a few pins. Anything capable of putting enough heat into a tuning pin by means of current is going to be kinda dangerous I would think. And difficult to do, getting an electrode into one of so many holes under the block.
    Maybe a large soldering iron with a hole big enough for a pin could be used. Just put it over the pin. Getting all that heat down to the other end would take a while.
    Likely what would happen is that the friction would be less while the pin was hot, drying out and shrinking the wood in the pinblock. Later, it might swell and get tight again. My guess.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




    Jun 14, 2020 9:07 PM
    Dale Fox


    Paul, a word of caution. It's actually a very dangerous thing being proposed.



    It sounds plausible until the math is done.


    P(Watts) = E(volts)x I (Amps)


    A dead short across a car battery at approximately 13.2 volts x anywhere from 400-700 amperes is going to produce power (Watts) of between 5000 to 9200.


    This is far more wattage than an arc welder and would actually cause catastrophic damage and heat. Part of the tuning pin might actually vaporize at this level of current.


    The Mehaffy version of this for heating centerpins was a very low wattage system which quite frequently was turned up too high by inexperienced techs.


    Sounds good, but please don't!! Not worth a trip to the ER.


    Original Message


  • 29.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2020 23:34
    Yes, that's what I imagined too. But with the zapper, the only metal in the neighborhood is the two ends of the center pin. With the tuning pin, it's in contact with, and potentially part of the circuit that includes, the string and the plate. What I don't know is whether the current will go in that direction, heating everything in its path due to resistance, or if it will, like lightning, take the shortest path to ground, i.e. the other end of the pin, leaving strings and plate unelectrified, and relatively cool as a cuke. If the string is conducting heat but not electricity, I doubt it would receive much, let alone the plate. But Wim is right about it's requiring considerably more current than the zapper. How much I have no idea. Over to you, Mr. Tesla!

    Mark Schecter
     | |   | | |   | |   | | | 




    Original Message


  • 30.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-15-2020 11:35
    What Joe Bisceglie told me was the chip tuners would first move the pin down slightly to judge tightness. Then if too tight, move it back up and back down but not all the way up to pitch or down more than 30 degrees or so of rotation. You do not want the wire to move around the hitch pin and you don't want to go above pitch, (but many of the factory guys do this when stringing, so a chip tuner may start from above pitch on some notes.).

    You don't want to go a fast as you can or you risk glazing the wood. Once you start doing this on pianos that need it, you will get a feel for it. It can turn into a 6 hour tuning properly done with a return tuning in a couple of weeks. I like quite tight tuning pins myself, I think they provide better stability over time once things get settled down. Tight treble pins can also cause the pitch to drop while tuning because the heat of turning the pin is enough to affect the pitch. You will experience this while tuning as unisons creeping sharp 10 minutes after you tuned them so it can be a real problem.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 31.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2020 02:38
    If the objective is to heat up the tuning pin, it seems to me that a heat gun would be preferable to a modified zapper.  You'd have to rig up some sort of shield/deflector akin to the one used to heat up hammer shanks to focus the hot air on the tuning pin, but it would offer the advantage of being much more controllable.  As the name implies, zappers are just too fast to offer much fine gradation.

    A certain amount of heat would blow out onto the plate itself, but the plate is a huge heat sink and will not heat up that much no matter how long to play the heat gun on it.  I once had the bright idea of the scorching off the finish on a plate which had been rebronzed at least a couple times already, just to get a fresh start on it, so to speak.  You can't buy decent paint strippers in L.A. anymore.   (I'm not complaining--I like clean air.)  With a heat gun I couldn't even get it hot enough to scorch my finger.  The tuning pin however is surrounded by wood, which is an effective insulator.

    It then becomes a question of measuring the temperature of the tuning pin so as not to overdo it.  I have used this technique to loosen 3" rusty wood screws that had locked piano legs in place.  It did the job but that didn't call for a lot of finess.  Perhaps in this situation one of those mechanic's laser thermometers would do the trick.  Failing that, a probe thermometer of the sort you stick into a roast, inserted into the bottom of the pin block to make contact with the bottom of the tuning pin might work.  I haven't tried actually any of this stuff, mind you, since it's been a while since I ran into a situation quite that dire. And if my wife saw me playing with her chef's grade thermometer I'd never hear the end of it.  

    I don't think that the heat alone would cure the problem, but it's possible that the heat in conjunction with sawing the pin back and forth might be worthwhile, if only to save some weat and tear on the shoulder joints.  What you want is to expand the metal in the pin, not burn the wood of the pinblock, somewhere in the range of 140 to 160 F I would guess.  Has anyone ever tried this?

    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 32.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2020 13:34
    I don't see a heat gun working very well without scorching the finish on the plate.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 33.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2020 12:25
    Well, thanks for the input.  I think I'll abandon the zapper idea (darn, was looking forward to a quick and easy solution) and go for the muscle method of working the pins.  Off to the weight bench to get in shape for it.  "I'll be back".

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 34.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-16-2020 14:54
    May the Force be with you...(i can recommend an excellent chiropractor should the force be a little weak that day)

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 35.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-16-2020 15:50
    As I recall, I took a break about every 12 minutes.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 36.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2020 13:38
    My concern is that I go through all that and then end up with snappy pins.  The other option was to just remove the pins and put in a shorter one after reaming to the proper dimension for whatever pin I would use.  But I can't really see a reasonable way to do that without taking a couple of days, especially on site.  Argh

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 37.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2020 15:08
    There you go. You will be finished in a day or less.
    John



    Original Message


  • 38.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-17-2020 15:16
    depending on how far away it is, allay your snappy pin fears by doing a couple of test pins, and then checking it the next day or week.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 39.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2020 15:39
    I'm wondering if backing the pin out half way, pounding it back in, then doing the rotational thing might be a little bit more efficient.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 40.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2020 12:30
    Well, that would require decoupling the strings.  If I'm going to do that it probably makes more sense to repin with the proper length pin and ream the block to accommodate the new size.  I want to avoid decoupling the strings if possible.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 41.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2020 15:05
    David,
    I would recommend the techniques described by Alan (post # ​8) and Wim (#12). When I did this on only selected too-tight pins (not a whole set), it does heat up the tuning pin and I wait a bit for things to cool down before evaluating the effect.
    There are three thoughts I had about the technique and the situation in general:
    • Do not pull the string too much above pitch. If you find your motions creeping the string up in tension, one hefty pull up might break the string. Yes, it happens. Then there is more work to do.
    • When completing this technique, check the coils on the tuning pins and make sure they have not dropped down. Leaving the coils spread out is just sloppy work.
    • You mention this is a "newly rebuilt Steinway D." I am assuming you are charging for your time and knowledge and the customer is incurring extra costs on an instrument they have presumably just paid a hefty sum to have "rebuilt." Why was the piano delivered and accepted with what I think we are all considering a flaw? The big question is what responsibility should the rebuilder have to set this right?
    I'll sit back now and hope to enjoy your thoughts on this.....

    Joel

    ------------------------------
    Joel Rappaport
    Rappaport's Piano Workshop
    Round Rock TX
    512-255-0440
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 42.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2020 15:47
    David, I understand your concern about "mission creep", the question is where you're going to draw the line. If I understand Jon's prescription you will be backing the pin 3/4's of a turn so you will have to reset the coils as it is. Removing the strings is one more increment and you would probably have some spacing strings to hammers in the treble. But if backing it off further and pounding it in (maybe even twice) saves half or more of the rotational exercise it may be worth it. Also the end result may be different, screwing and unscrewing a screw doesn't do much in terms of opening a threaded hole, the pounding in would break the threads in the wood to a certain extent. 


    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 43.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2020 16:34
    Why not just let the person who rebuilt it take care of it?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 44.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 06-20-2020 02:42

    ESSENTIAL REAMER INFO:   I think this is appropriate for two current threads so I'll post it to both. I've been meaning to send this in for a while but by the time I read the threads it is no longer timely.  I hope this is useful.  Referring to the photos -

    Pic #1 shows 3 chucking reamers and 1 hand reamer.  Chucking reamers have round shanks and are used in machine collets.  The 2 on the right are spiral and straight fluted chucking  reamers.   Hand reamers have square ends that fit in a tap wrench and are to be turned by hand.  On chucking reamers the the sharpened bevel at the"business end" is very short- maybe a millimeter.  If you put these in a drill motor and try to run them through a pinblock you're going to be sorry.  With hand rearmers the taper on the end is about 1/3 of the length of the flutes (if I remember right- maybe less).  This allows the reamer to enter the hole and straighten itself before it starts cutting. This adds a huge safety factor but the precision is still questionable at best for our purposes.   The reamer second from left is a hand reamer- notice the square end.  These are all fixed diameter tools so you have to buy an assortment which adds up quickly.  

    Pic #2  shows 2 "adjustable" reamers on the left.  The tool holds four blades which are separate pieces.  They can be removed and sharpened.  As the screw on the lower end is tightened the blades move along internal inclined slots, changing the cutting diameter.  The blades remains parallel with each other.  The reamers on the right are called expandable reamers or expansion reamers.  These are official names so don't mix them up with adjustable reamers.  As the screw on the end is tightened the integral blades expand outward like a balloon.  The center becomes the "fattest" and is where all the reaming is done while at the same time a long taper is created .  The advantage is that since the cutting portion is not on the end of the tool it can be oriented deep in the hole before you rotate it, thus reducing  the potential for taking a chunk out of the side of the pin hole.

    I seldom use reamers, but when I do I have gotten acceptable results with the expandable hand reamer.  I use a small drill motor which is stopped before the reamer enters the hole.  If the neck at the bottom of the hole is too small for the end of the reamer to pass through then I'll use a twist drill of sufficient diameter to open it up just enough for it to pass.  I don't want to be using the twist drill as a reamer.  Reamers are not designed to be used on wood.  The cutting angle is for creating "plastic flow" of steel in front of the cutter.  This doesn't happen with wood.  Also, the blades are not mini-chisels. We are really tearing up the wood fibers.  Perhaps, for tuning pins, this is a good thing.

    FYI-  "Twisted wire" or "spiral steel" brushes are not  necessarily gun brushes. Gun brushes are made of brass or plastic so as not to damage the gun bore.  When used in a pinblock the brass wires quickly lay down around the center axis changing its diameter.  I prefer to use a stainless steel spiral steel brush. Industrial supply stores sell them in all the diameters we need.   You won't find them at gun stores. 



    ------------------------------
    Glen Hart
    Grand Junction CO
    970-434-5558
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 45.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 07-09-2020 14:12
    Good luck. I worked on a console the pins were so tight, I couldn't even loosen them. They would actually take the tuning tip off the hammer.  I now carry a nasty tuning wrench the tip is solid, nothing screwed together for just such occasions.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 46.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Posted 07-09-2020 14:34
    Hmmm . . . I'd refer it back to whoever rebuilt it and tell them to get on with it.

    I hate the fashion that dictates nowadays that rebuilt instruments have to have impossibly tight tuning pins.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 47.  RE: Tight tuning pin dilemma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-09-2020 20:26

    Reminds me of an Asian grand with pins so tight that my friend broke one of them off trying to tune it.




    Original Message