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Centering capstan in key

  • 1.  Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 10:55
    Does anyone have a method or jig to center your index marking on the key so ask to locate the capstan hole?  

    It would be easy enough to make an indexing jig if all the keys were the same width, but they are not.

    Will Truitt

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 2.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 11:08
    I scribe a line across the keys for the capstans with them carefully clamped in place at the rest position. I then set the stack on the frame and move it left or right as needed to best center the whippens above the keyends. (Sometimes a little more whippen spacing is done to build higher uniformity at this time). Then use a pencil to mark under the whippen in the capstan groove. Then use an awl to mark the key ends and use a spur tip bit in a drill press to drill the holes.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 3.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 11:29
    Thanks, Ed.

    I scribe the line across the keys much as you do.  I am assuming that you have installed the hammers and done the lateral spacing to the strings.  From there you center the whippens to the knuckles.  Then you center mark under the capstan heel cloth, yes?

    Will

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 4.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 13:42

    After almost 45 years, I've just (hopefully) completed my first capstan line repositioning.  I learned a lot and made no (or was that too-numerous-to-count?) mistakes;  thoroughly ambivalent about the prospect of doing it again, but feeling much more confident: the first mistake for any such job.' 
    Jim's approach is very attractive but there are still a few of us who don't have access to that level of equipment.  Will's comment about working down from spaced hammers seems logical but, at least for me, fairly impractical.  All the hammer work would have to be done without the input from a functioning key.  I chose to rely on evidence from the pre-existing action, knowing that I might have to plug and redrill some number.  I've gotten exceedingly good at plugging and redrilling, but it was a painful process.  (not like 'voicing' ; more emotionally).  I used spacing from rep flange screws and reps aligned to keys and shanks.  
    Two things in connection with comments by Jim and Ed.
    Ed said:
    Then use an awl to mark the key ends and use a spur tip bit in a drill press to drill the holes
    I'm not clear as to what he means by marking key 'ends'.  
    I also use a spur tip screw machine length (similar I think to what Jim calls 'stub').  I got them from WL Fuller, originally for boring hammers.  The cool thing about what they can provide, if you ask, is for an extended center spur, which, with proper magnifying-wear or otherwise healthy young eyes, you can be precise in hitting your mark, to the .25mm.  These bits are essential if using one of the lesser drill presses Jim referenced (which is pretty much all the ones under  $1,000, and especially when drilling angled capstans.  I was able to reduce quill slop with targeted insertions (glued) of .001" or .0005" stainless shim stock.

    The other critical piece, that despite my best effort, sometimes escaped me, was ensuring the lateral perpendicularity.  Especially with older keys, there can be problems beyond simply lack of squareness with key bottom.  Many of my keys had some degree of twist that, while not unworkable, left the front of the key unsquare when clamped.   I used a level to true the fronts by shimming at the vise.  Inelligant but mostly effective.

    The other indispensable (for me) item that Jim mentions is the xy table.  For my small bench  top drill press, I was able to use the one I had gotten from MicroMark.  https://www.micromark.com/MicroLux-X-Y-Table-Attachment
    Yes, it's a toy, but it's worked thus far.

    So, do you tap holes?  If so, how?



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 5.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 14:11
    Regarding my question about tapping, I was not trying to be coy, as I came up with a method that seemed to work, but was curious to see if there's something better.  I was re-installing hex capstans, so that complicated it a bit.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 6.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Posted 09-11-2020 15:12
    I tap to start the capstan in...not all the way in, just  3 or 4 revolutions.  Cut off the head of the capstan you are using, and chock the threaded shank in a straight line hand power screw driver like the milwaukee power screw driver

    You need a small chuck with a 1/4" hex end, to fit the hex chuck. Drilling straight like this tool allows you to drill many piano type holes real easy, without having to compensate for the offset caused by a standard 90 deg driver/drill. Its reverse switch is really easy to switch forward and reverse, without switching hand positions. I also use this drill, slow speed to drill bridge pin holes.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 7.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Posted 09-11-2020 11:29
    The best way I've come up with is, I only mark the side to side location, across the key with a line. Then take the key, mount it in a machinst's vise, and, without marking the entry with anything, use a stub bit, and the Bridgeport's xy table to locate the hole and drill it without wandering. With a tight quill, machinist's vise and stub bit, if you don't like the start of the hole centering-wise,  you can move it a tad to find center. The trick is the key is held in a vise clamped to a table, stub bit, and tight quill.

    If you dont have an xy table for your drill, its a really good investment, as long as you have a tight quill. Many drill press quills have so much slop, it makes the tool useless, so the machinery is important. Using the technique I use, I can move the capstan small amounts without the bit wandering back to the original location, or somewhere else where you don't want it to go.

    Actually just an x axis slide is all you need  for this job, as long as the slide is tight .

    The trick in clamping a key whose sides are not guaranteed to be 90 deg to the bottom of the key, is for the vise to only clamp the key in the middle of the key. With double stick tape, apply a small 3/16" or so piece of wood so the vise jaws don't impose a screwy angle off of un-square sides.


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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 8.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 13:09
    Thanks, Jim.  I have been telling myself that I wanted an xy table anyway (many other good uses for it).  The nearby machine tool shop (Machinetoolshysters,com) had a used small xy table that wobbled like mad as  i turned the wheel.  $190.  He has no shame).  I will have to order one online.  As usual, you have thought out things all the way through and I will follow your example.  

    Will

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 9.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Posted 09-12-2020 07:17

    Super simple tool for this. Halfway between two parallel lines will always be the center, no matter how far apart the parallel lines are. Also, the center of a line running perpendicular to two parallel lines will be the same as the center of a line intersecting them at an angle. 


    They had a tool made up at Western University where I started learning the trade, and I made one of my own, but don't know where it is at the moment. It works off of the principle above. It's a flat piece of 3/4" wide steel, but one end is ground so that there are two tabs at each side that will go on either side of the key, and a point ground exactly centered between those two tabs. To use it, place it over the key and rotate it so the two tabs are touching the opposite sides of the key, and line the center point over the perpendicular line, then just tap gently and you'll have an indent for your brad point bit.

    I'll add a link to a Rockler made tool that also uses the principle, but is too large for our needs.


    A bonus tip for finding centers (and thirds and quarters) of boards without doing hard math, using this same principle: Put your tape measure on an angle when measuring. 


    example: dividing a 2x12 (11 1/4" wide) in fourths. Instead of dividing 11 1/4 by four and trying to find where 2.8125 would be on your tape, hold your tape on an angle so that one side of the board is at 0" and the other at 12" and mark every 3".  



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    Philip Stewart, RPT
    NJ Piano Service
    609-774-7571
    www.njpianoservice.com
    njpianoservice@gmail.com
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  • 10.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Posted 09-12-2020 07:19

    Not sure what happened to the link. 


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eZO9XD84C_g



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    Philip Stewart, RPT
    NJ Piano Service
    609-774-7571
    www.njpianoservice.com
    njpianoservice@gmail.com
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  • 11.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2020 15:20
    Phillip -
    this is ok as long as your'e targeting the exact center of the key.  there are times it doesn't quite work out that way.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 12.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2020 16:28
    Thanks to everyone who has chimed in thus far.  

    I am working on a set of Steinway O keys that remind me of an old cape in Connecticut (built in 1742) where nothing was plumb or square.  Are the sides of each key always parallel?  No.  Are they straight?  Some are.  Are they all the same width where the capstan will go?  Hardly, and they can vary by as much as .045".

    I have moved capstans many times, I am just trying to step up my game here.  I want more consistency in my work.  As shown above, there are many hobgoblins inserting themselves between us and a good result.  

    I will be ordering an XY table soon, as I have a new keyset to do in my next job.  And Jim's stub drill bits are a good idea.  Flex is the enemy of accuracy.  And I want to get a self-centering vise to attach to the XY table.  When you close the vise,  the key will be automatically centered.  With the fore-aft location already indexed, all you will have to do is position the drill on your mark and then drill.  I am going to get one that is only 2" in width.  Given the changeable irregularities of  old keys, I think the errors will be magnified less.  

    The other method that I have worked out is to measure the width of the key at the capstan mark on the key with a digital caliper, divide in half, subtract a few thousandths, and then set my digital tire gauge to that value.  Mark from the side of the key that is flattest.  It will be pretty close.  Mark it with a punch and drill.  

    The XY table with the self centering  vise will take out a couple of steps, be more accurate, and faster.  I will be into it for $225 to $250.  But these tools can have many other uses in our work.  

    -  Will

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 13.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2020 18:03
    This might be similar to Philip’s suggestion, there’s a description and pic of a simple centering jig in Nick Gravagne’s article in the September 2019 Journal.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 14.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Posted 09-13-2020 20:50
    Will, I think you might find the self-centering vise disappointing. Maybe a high end one might work, but the low end ones are foo-foo. You might ask Chris Brown about that, as he bought one a while ago, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't ever use it.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 15.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2020 14:13
    So Jim, you are basically eyeballing it with your xy table?  Thanks for the tip on the self-centering vise.  

    As for the drill bit, are you talking about a split tip stub length drill bit?

    - Will

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 16.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Posted 09-14-2020 15:24
    I spot the key with the stub bit, by eyeball,and adjust, all by eyeball. It works the nicest of any thing else I've tried. Not sure I have a 135 deg split point or not. The rigidity of the quill and machinist's vice is what controls the entry.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 17.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2020 15:55
    Got it.  thanks.  I will try it.  

    Will

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 18.  RE: Centering capstan in key

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2020 16:47
    Will,
    We start out as others have mentioned with a line scribed with a sharp awl horizontally across the set of keys.The indented line makes it easy for this tool which we have used in the factories in Europe to find the center of any key for the capstan.  I found this picture in the Jahn catalog from Germany and don't know who might carry it in our part of the world. You lower the tool onto the key, keeping it straight up-and-down. Twist the tool until the two legs find the sides of the key and help the center point find the scribed line. A slight downward pressure will make a starting indentation for your drill bit. It is not easy to tell from the photo but it is chrome-plated metal. It is very similar to what Philip Stewart described, above.
    It's called a Mitte-Andeuter which is translated as a "marker of the middle". Doesn't translate very elegantly, but it does the job.
    JoelTool to find center of key

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    Joel Rappaport
    Rappaport's Piano Workshop
    Round Rock TX
    512-255-0440
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