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Titebond glue for key bushings

  • 1.  Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-16-2021 22:31
    We've been running a test on glues for key pin bushings, as hide is a pain in the geshputz.   Yeah...yeah...we've used hide for years, but decided to run some tests as we contemplate a move away from hide. So, we ran a whole series of mortises on a piece of pine. Glued felt, with cauls, as per the usual technique, in the entire series of mortises, with Titebond Original. The test was to see what removal was like after a few months and years. We will test occasionally for the next few years, as there are plenty of test mortises on the board. This test was 4 months out from when we glued the felt in.

    Removal ease was excellent. A heated caul in the soldering iron, as usual, and the glue releases without leaving any goobers like, frankly, hide glue does. Left a clean mortise, and heat alone was sufficient, no water necessary.

    We also tried Roo Glue melamine glue, which we use on other felts since PVCE was discontinued. This glue is on another board of mortises. It releases at 140 deg. However, we did not like this one, as it left goobers, which are a pain to clean up, kind of like rubber cement goobers.  

    So, Titebond gets the poo-poo usually from techs in bushed key mortises. I'm seeing evidence which looks really nice to me. Not sure why the poo-poo, other than the usual reason, ie, because "that's the way its supposed to be". Has anyone out there actually experimented themselves with Titebond for this purpose? Over the long term?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 2.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2021 22:48
    I've never had to remove the keybushings I've put on, but I've been using titebond for 45 years. So much easier. In fact, I've never even owned a glue pot.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2021 23:34
    I have been a glue apostate for decades. I have used regular Titebond since 1980.I have re-bushed several sets a second time for long term clients. Just like you found, i find it easier to remove than hide.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 01:14
    I just ordered some PVC-E from Schaff. 

    Perhaps rumors of its demise were premature. 

    I believe some of the rumors are because they did not have the right data sheets for the EU, and therefore it is not available there.

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    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Member
    Posted 04-17-2021 06:59
    Hi Jim,

    I'm glad to hear of your results although I don't find hot hide a problem to use or undo.  We use the Spurlock method of hot water on felt wedges to soften the glue for removal.  I find it more of a pain to use the heated caul method, which I use on stubborn stuff!  To each his own.  However, I would like to hear some test results when rebushing with Titebond on old S&S keys that tend to have very punky/stringy wood rather than on new wood.  Maybe a scrap set left over from a brand new keyset manufacture?

    Deb

    --
    5 Tarr's Lane WEST
    Rockport, MA  01966
    978-546-8428



    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-17-2021 08:03
    Hi Deb,

    That is one of my questions as well. But we did do a 1920s S&S which had been really poorly re-bushed about 6 months ago. Mortises were not perfect, and somewhat beat up. It worked fine. I will continue to monitor this question as we proceed with the change to titebond.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 09:19
    Hi Jim,
    I have done a lot of key bushing work over the years.  I use hot hide glue and have never had a problem as long as the mortise has been pre-treated with a thinned swab of hot glue.  I don't use original Titebond because it always seemed too thin and the longer curing time would let the glue soak though the bushing felt.  I've often wondered what glue was used on the pianos that set up squeeks in the key bushings after a couple years of use.  Never had that happen with hide glue, so that's what I stick with.  Do you have any insight into that?  It's good to know original Titebond can be easily removed but what happens over a period of wear?

    I don't see old, punky keys a second time.  No insight there.

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    Stewart Freedman, RPT
    Freedman Piano Service
    Akron, OH
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 09:21

    I used to use PVC-E glue and now use Roo Glue with great results.  I do a ton of rebushing here at UofSC.

     

    Paul




    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-17-2021 14:20
    hi Stewart, 
    I have rebushed many sets of keys and have used the Titebond molding & trim  glue and have never seen a single problem with it. That glue has a thicker consistency and I have not ever seen it being soaked up by felt or cloth.
    I used to apply the glue to the mortises, then use the bushmaster tool but have switched to the Spurlock method which works great for the Titebond as well.
    Several years ago, I purchased the glue pot and hide glue, used it for a few sets but for me it was too messy.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-18-2021 06:19

    Petrus and List

    I'll chime in here since Titebond Molding glue has been mentioned. I too, used this glue until I experience a complete glue failure on 2 sets of concert grand bushings I had done ( back to back). Within a month, the glue continued to expand to the point of easing was exhausting. Then the bushings started falling out. Turns out that the Titebond Molding glue has a definite shelf life and once it goes beyond that point, it's completely useless. When I had posted this issue, Ron Nossaman was still with us and he chimed in on how to read the expiration date, which was imbedded in their number code. Since then, I've returned to hide glue, so I'm another one in the 10% category. The beauty of the hide glue is that there are no expiration issues to deal with, plus its ability to fill in the gaps for those old mortises, especially those old S&S keys where the wood is rather shotty.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Assist. Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    Website: tomservinsy.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     




    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 09:21

    Jim,

    Thank you for this post and thanks for sharing info.  I did the same experiment about 5 years ago.  At that time I did not know about  ROO glue so I couldn't include that.  I left the bushings in for two weeks and got pretty much the same results as you did.  I also really liked regular Elmers white glue.  Its probably not as strong as Titebond but I'm not sure that makes a difference in this application.  

    At the time I became a little bit obsessed with the issue and I was about to go to a convention.  (Remember those?)  While at the convention I decided I would ask every technician I interacted with what glue they used for key bushings.  I asked a lot of people during those 3 days, included some of our more "famous" colleagues.  What I found was that only about 10% were using hide glue.  

    David Weiss



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    David Weiss
    Charlottesville VA
    434-823-9733
    davidweisspiano@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-17-2021 09:53
    "What I found was that only about 10% were using hide glue"

    interesting...In this business, its pretty amazing how often our Emperor is sporting his new clothes.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 11:11
    The PVA glue many manufacturers use for key bushings is pure crap. That is the stuff that can squeak and takes much heat to undo.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-17-2021 11:22
    I removed a set of what appeared to be heat activated bushing cloth yesterday....complete pain in the butt. Hard to remove, some failed even with low use. The reason I was changing the bushings out, was that they were permeated with the white heat activated glue, hard and thin, zero friction and sloppy.. 

    So Ed, how is this stuff, which I will avoid, different than the Titebond Original? 
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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 11:45

    The reason I don't use Titebond isn't the removal issue, it's because it too easily soaks through the bushing cloth. 

    I use hide glue mainly for that reason, although it does come out easily as well without taking any wood with it. I do use cold hide glue. Haven't used a glue pot in many years  

    I don't like pvc-e either for bushings. That can be difficult to remove and leaves a rubbery residue. 



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-17-2021 16:29
    Anyone tried titebond hide glue for felts? I've  tried it only for soundboard shimming and other woodwork, it worked well. I found that it is sensible to humidity, in relation to crystallization. I think hot hide glue crystallizes better in ambient with relevant humidity, but I had to try cold hide glue on felts and  bushings.

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    Davide Marchi
    Pianist and restorer

    Italy
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2021 17:58
    I guess I'm part of the 10%. I use hot hide glue...always have. But hey, I still tune by ear and use 3x5 cards...so go figure. I'm also the highest priced tech around for many miles. No complaints. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-19-2021 09:50
    I’ve advanced way beyond your old-fashioned system, Peter. I use 4X6 cards.

    Bob Anderson, RPT
    Tucson, Az


    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-18-2021 00:49

    Titebond cold hide glue is my preferred product for key bushings. I also use it for key end felt, key frame felt and damper felt.  I also use it for gluing in the music desk glides on old Steinways.

    While I don't use hide glue to glue in soundboards I have to say, cleaning the old glue off the inner rim is pretty easy when that's what was used.   



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Posted 04-18-2021 05:52
      |   view attached
    My dog threatened me with great bodily harm if I ever gave up using hot hide glue. Besides, I love the smell of hot hide glue in the morning.......

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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
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    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Titebond glue for key bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-19-2021 07:13

    Ha Terry! We used to have a chapter member whose dog liked to "lick the spoon" whenever he had the glue pot going. As he always used old, rancid glue the dog was particularly happy.

     

    Sent from Mail for Windows 10

     




    Original Message