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What is the Snap

  • 1.  What is the Snap

    Posted 06-28-2020 01:28
    https://youtu.be/MewZVNmhJjE

    What is this snap coming from when tuning? I sense that it's from the agraffe and it happens multiple times from each pin (so it's not rust breaking because it wouldn't "break" multiple times per string). Also, in between snapping sounds I hear a very quite pinging, ticking, or clicking (tick tick tick tick tick tick really fast) sound while tuning. It also sounds like it is from the agraffe. What is all this noise about?

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    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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  • 2.  RE: What is the Snap

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2020 01:41
    The snap comes from the pin turning in the pin block. It's very common on pianos with tight tuning pins.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 06-28-2020 01:56
    Wim, maybe it was, but I feel that there's a different feel and sound coming from a snap from an agraffe and a snap from a tuning pin. The snap sound of a pin can be felt on the tuning lever and the sound is deeper. When I've heard the higher pitched snapping as in the video I don't feel it in the lever and it sounds harsher with lots of higher frequencies. Although pins and agraffes are really close to each other I do think that the sound is originating from the string sliding through the agraffe.

    The pins weren't tight in the piano I was tuning and the other thing that makes me think it was the agraffes was the tiny ticking sound I was hearing when tuning. Unless that tiny ticking sound is also from the tuning pin(?).

    If it is from the agraffe, why does it do that? I feel that it is the agraffe also since the string will be close to being in tune but one tiny movement of the pin and the string shoots to the "other" side of being out-of-tune.

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    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: What is the Snap

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2020 03:57
    In that case it could that there are notches on the string, and as they pass through the agraff, they will make a snappy sound. The notches on the string are caused when the piano has not been tuned for a long time. 

    One way to over come the notches is to reduce the tension on one side of the strings by about 1/2 turn of the tuning lever. Then slowly pull up the other side of the string. What you're doing is pulling the string around the hitch pin, but also moving the notch away from the agraff. 

    You want to be careful the there is not any rust or corrosion on the string at the tuning pin, the agraff, the bridges, or the hitch pin.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 06-28-2020 08:23
    Your video shows a new piano with an upper bearing bar before the tuning pin.
    You can test it:
    Select three strings that "tick."
    On one string put a tiny drop of ProLube at the bearing bar.
    On another, put a tiny drop of ProLube at the agraffe.
    On another, apply a light pass of ProLube along the bearing felt.
    Then see what happens when you move the tuning pin.

    By the way, is this causing any problems with stability, or is it just an unfamiliar "tick?"

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 06-28-2020 10:54
    It sounds like friction releasing at the counter bearing bar. Not so much the agraffe due to the lubricious properties of brass. Counter Bearing Lube (CBL) will help the strings render over the bearing points. ProLube (as Ed mentioned) will help but CBL is better.  If the sound were coming from the block's grip on the pin, that would be a pronounced cracking sound instead of the tick you're hearing. The pin's cracking sound would also have a major pitch change due to the amount of torsion applied to the pin before the pin moved in the block.  The tick sound (on slight pin movement) is the friction releasing at the bearing points.

    CBL is like power steering for your tuning hammer. It allows micro finessing and really shows up flaws in your pin setting technique (which was developed while tuning with the bearing's friction being higher than needed).

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 07-05-2020 05:49
    https://youtu.be/u0T_LM0-7O4

    Here is another video with just the clicking or squeaching sound. Must be from the (what is it) brass colored pressure bar?

    It's no problem for stability it's just something I don't come upon often and it makes tuning difficult with extraneous noises.

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    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: What is the Snap

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-07-2020 08:02
    The wire embeds itself in the counter bearing cloth/felt and the relentless pressure produces a mirror image of the microscopicalky imperfect surface of the wire in the cloth (effectively "locking" it into place). The older the wire the worse this becomes. The snap you hear and feel is coming from the wire releasing from this "lock" (the agraffe idea is an illusion), and repeated snapping is because of the excessive friction that has built up here over the years. 

    The solution, as Jon has correctly pointed out, is to lubricate the cloth area. I use his CBL which works better than anything I have tried previously. It doesn't hurt to also apply it judiciously at the agraffe (which I do). Typically after application you will get one snap (as the wire releases) and then smooth sailing after that. If a stubborn wire persists I just apply more right on that wire. Eventually it submits.

    Notice that this situation (snapping wire) never (or very rarely) happens on new or nearly new pianos. It takes time (and often non-tuning neglect) for the problem to manifest itself. Lubrication is the solution. 

    Now all that being said, there are snapping tuning pins (usually quite tight) but that is an entirely different issue. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 07-07-2020 08:12
    There is a counter bearing upper bar, so the felt between that and the agraffe is to just mute the string. I doubt there is much pressure. However, for pianos that do not have the upper c/b bar and only the expanse of felt, I devised "Counter Bearing Aliquots" which relieves the problem you describe.  It's in the archives.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 07-07-2020 08:20
      |   view attached
    I also install small punchings under the NSL to mute.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: What is the Snap

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-08-2020 02:56
    Brass isn't supposed to snap or hang up on the string, but older, corroded brass or brass of a different alloy might not behave properly.

    I often notice Steinways doing this more than other brands, perhaps Steinway used a different or proprietary alloy (look up brass on Wikipedia, there are many).

    I have had more trouble with broken agraffes on Steinways than other brands, this might be a factor.

    Someone could try a very judicious use of liquid graphite applied on the string on the speaking side of the agraffe.

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 07-08-2020 07:33
      |   view attached
    The problem with S&S agraffes was that they were over tightened and the thread did not go all the way to the base, creating stress on the shank. A photo posted by Ron Nossaman years ago illustrates this.

    In any system, the pressure and oxidation of the wire causes a buildup of excess friction. That is why lubrication is suggested. Graphite is not the best lubricant and should be limited to pedal pivot pins but even there, there are better lubricants available.

    I took over from a retired RPT who used graphite at the agraffes. It left a dark, dingy deposit and really didn't eliminate the problem. CBL did hands down.  As Peter notes, S&S tenor c/b felt is the culprit. When CBL isn't enough, Counter Bearing Aliquots are. I had one S (before CBL) which was sever in the tenor ratcheting. One day, after a few note attempts, I stopped and went home and made some aliquots (I had beed pondering the idea for a while). I installed them and the piano went from a wretched, dreadful tuning experience to one of the nicest pianos to tune. Otherwise, the piano would have required restringing.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: What is the Snap

    Posted 01-22-2022 08:25
    I'm sure that this has come up again recently and please forgive  my senility for not remembering where it was and who posted.

    However yesterday I came across such a piano with the strings ratcheting spectacularly.


    It's on an island, not on the mainland, so I don't have full tools with me, and where pianos have been neglected terribly to the point potentially of being scrapped if not got going in some way. Accordingly I'm not embarrassed at using thin machine oil rather than Protech for lubricating the agraffes and the felts. I hope that perhaps the oil might have spread a bit through the felt by the next visit.

    Is it just a matter of applying and being patient?


    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: What is the Snap

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2022 09:36
    In my experience, this ratcheting ping is related to the brass metallurgy. I've seen it in several new Chinese pianos among others, enough times to learn that lubrication (my preferred is Prolube, but I'm sure other proprietary products work also), will improve the situation enough to get through the tuning process with less nuisance. Also, once the string moves over the brass surface often enough, the ratcheting "tick-tick" subsides on its' own, although it can be rather stubborn.  Can't remember that I've ever encountered this on Japanese makers' instruments?

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    Brian Mott RPT
    Madison WI
    608-246-0506
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    Original Message