Pianotech

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Scott

My initial thought is that the customer might be used to a electronic keyboard where the sound stops immediately.  He is not used to the after ring of an acoustic piano.  With a piano as old as this one, the dampers felts are probably hard and will not dampen properly, no matter how well they are adjusted.

My suggestion is you explain the situation the best you can, and hope he understands.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Scott, be sure that the back lengths are well muffled. If stringing braid is old or missing or not doing its job, keybushing cloth strips will have more effect.

If you are getting ringing on one particular note, pluck the back lengths, bass and lower treble, to find any which match the note. Weave bushing cloth through them.

If the dampers are old and crusty, sometimes just rubbing them a little with your fingers can reduce the crunch noise.

I assume the damper springs are strong enough?

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Sometimes I have to point out that tuning is one thing and repair is separate.

I've found these kind of objections are most likely to come up if I ask the owner to play the piano before I've put it back together as an open vertical makes a lot more noise than one closed up. Once someone hears something it's hard to unhear it.

87 year old felt dampers not working well is not much of mystery. I think you have given more than enough of free time on it.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 13:06
From: Susan Kline
Subject: poor damping

Scott, be sure that the back lengths are well muffled. If stringing braid is old or missing or not doing its job, keybushing cloth strips will have more effect.

If you are getting ringing on one particular note, pluck the back lengths, bass and lower treble, to find any which match the note. Weave bushing cloth through them.

If the dampers are old and crusty, sometimes just rubbing them a little with your fingers can reduce the crunch noise.

I assume the damper springs are strong enough?

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Hi Scott,

Any friction problems in flanges or keybushings?

Other than that, It might be an idea to keep a new damper in your kit for future use.

Have the customer see and feel what new dampers are like in comparison to the old dampers in the piano. The job should sell itself.

Maybe he will see things in a different light... https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/about/comparisonWebbVsHubble.html

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
Past President
Piano Technicians Guild
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: ipp@ptg.org
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 16:33
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: poor damping

Sometimes I have to point out that tuning is one thing and repair is separate.

I've found these kind of objections are most likely to come up if I ask the owner to play the piano before I've put it back together as an open vertical makes a lot more noise than one closed up. Once someone hears something it's hard to unhear it.

87 year old felt dampers not working well is not much of mystery. I think you have given more than enough of free time on it.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 13:06
From: Susan Kline
Subject: poor damping

Scott, be sure that the back lengths are well muffled. If stringing braid is old or missing or not doing its job, keybushing cloth strips will have more effect.

If you are getting ringing on one particular note, pluck the back lengths, bass and lower treble, to find any which match the note. Weave bushing cloth through them.

If the dampers are old and crusty, sometimes just rubbing them a little with your fingers can reduce the crunch noise.

I assume the damper springs are strong enough?

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message------

Sometimes I have to point out that tuning is one thing and repair is separate.

I've found these kind of objections are most likely to come up if I ask the owner to play the piano before I've put it back together as an open vertical makes a lot more noise than one closed up. Once someone hears something it's hard to unhear it.

87 year old felt dampers not working well is not much of mystery. I think you have given more than enough of free time on it.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

I'll second the comments about damped strings vs. digital reproduction, and what is and is not included in a tuning. 

One of the reasons grand dampers work better than upright dampers is: Mass. Often grand dampers have lead weights to resist movement. I find uprights from the era you are looking at rely too much on the spring, and not enough on inertia. There have been past discussions about adding weight to the dampers, with lead tape (used on golf clubs) or fishing leads crimped onto the damper wire. I have seen it demonstrated, and it can make a massive (pun not intended, but taken advantage of) difference.

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
PNWRVP
Olympia WA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
the ringing?

You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
it made the piano sound better...




Original Message------

I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

Really?
How would you go about doing this?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: poor damping

Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
the ringing?

You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
it made the piano sound better...




Original Message------

I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

Technically, yes you could. Many of the uprights I see had the damper rail already drilled. You would just need to order the dampers and install. Others you would need to do more extensive work. But yes, it is possible. 

More importantly, why would you though? I believe those notes are left undampened so they can ring synthetically as the lower notes are played. Muting these notes would make the tone more dull I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of why those notes don't have dampers. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(805) 315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: poor damping

Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
the ringing?

You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
it made the piano sound better...




Original Message------

I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

Hi, Benjamin,

Do you have any pictures of such a retrofit? If so, seeing them would
be most helpful in understanding how this was accomplished.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards.

Horace

On 1/1/2020 2:20 PM, Benjamin Sanchez via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
>
> Technically, yes you could. Many of the uprights I see had the damper rail already drilled. You would just need to order the dampers and install. Others you would need to do more extensive work. But yes, it is possible.
>
>
>
> More importantly, why would you though? I believe those notes are left undampened so they can ring synthetically as the lower notes are played. Muting these notes would make the tone more dull I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of why those notes don't have dampers.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
> Piano Technician / Artisan
> (805) 315-8050
> www.professional-piano-services.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
> From: Henry Mooney
> Subject: poor damping
>
> Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
> the ringing?
>
> You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
> it made the piano sound better...
>
>
>
>
> Original Message------
>
> I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
> Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.
>
> ------------------------------
> Mark Dierauf
> Concord NH
> 603-225-4652
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Reply to Sender : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=67f78c5a-90e2-4051-89c8-67c0522d1a7d&MID=712590&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
> Reply to Discussion : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=712590&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
>


Original Message------

Technically, yes you could. Many of the uprights I see had the damper rail already drilled. You would just need to order the dampers and install. Others you would need to do more extensive work. But yes, it is possible. 

More importantly, why would you though? I believe those notes are left undampened so they can ring synthetically as the lower notes are played. Muting these notes would make the tone more dull I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of why those notes don't have dampers. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(805) 315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Hi Horace and all,

No, I have not seen this retrofit to an upright. On quite a few consoles I’ve seen (Kimballs?) the damper flange rail is drilled all the way to C8. The wippens sometimes have the spoons installed in the high treble, but most of the time not.

In theory, one could install damper spoons in the wippens that do not have them, but some dampers, and screw the dampers into the empty screw holes. Of course you’d have to cut the dampers down to size so the hammers wouldn’t block.

In theory this is technically possible. I want to emphasize again that I’ve never seen this in person.

Sincerely,

Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(805) 315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com


Original Message------

Hi, Benjamin,

Do you have any pictures of such a retrofit? If so, seeing them would
be most helpful in understanding how this was accomplished.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards.

Horace

On 1/1/2020 2:20 PM, Benjamin Sanchez via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
>
> Technically, yes you could. Many of the uprights I see had the damper rail already drilled. You would just need to order the dampers and install. Others you would need to do more extensive work. But yes, it is possible.
>
>
>
> More importantly, why would you though? I believe those notes are left undampened so they can ring synthetically as the lower notes are played. Muting these notes would make the tone more dull I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of why those notes don't have dampers.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
> Piano Technician / Artisan
> (805) 315-8050
> www.professional-piano-services.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
> From: Henry Mooney
> Subject: poor damping
>
> Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
> the ringing?
>
> You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
> it made the piano sound better...
>
>
>
>
> Original Message------
>
> I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
> Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.
>
> ------------------------------
> Mark Dierauf
> Concord NH
> 603-225-4652
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Reply to Sender : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=67f78c5a-90e2-4051-89c8-67c0522d1a7d&MID=712590&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
> Reply to Discussion : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=712590&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
>

As far as reducing the ringing of undamped treble wires, I suppose one could apply a 4 or 5mm strip of tape across the strings or thread a length of yarn through the unisons near the terminus. It wouldn't affect the attack too much and the strings don't ring that long on their own anyway.
I don't see the point but I think that would do it. Adding dampers would create more problems than it solved. I'm not sure if the lack of travel on foreshortened damper levers could be resolved.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2020 20:24
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: poor damping

Hi Horace and all,

No, I have not seen this retrofit to an upright. On quite a few consoles I've seen (Kimballs?) the damper flange rail is drilled all the way to C8. The wippens sometimes have the spoons installed in the high treble, but most of the time not.

In theory, one could install damper spoons in the wippens that do not have them, but some dampers, and screw the dampers into the empty screw holes. Of course you'd have to cut the dampers down to size so the hammers wouldn't block.

In theory this is technically possible. I want to emphasize again that I've never seen this in person.

Sincerely,

Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(805) 315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com


Original Message------

Hi, Benjamin,

Do you have any pictures of such a retrofit? If so, seeing them would
be most helpful in understanding how this was accomplished.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards.

Horace

On 1/1/2020 2:20 PM, Benjamin Sanchez via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
>
> Technically, yes you could. Many of the uprights I see had the damper rail already drilled. You would just need to order the dampers and install. Others you would need to do more extensive work. But yes, it is possible.
>
>
>
> More importantly, why would you though? I believe those notes are left undampened so they can ring synthetically as the lower notes are played. Muting these notes would make the tone more dull I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of why those notes don't have dampers.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
> Piano Technician / Artisan
> (805) 315-8050
> www.professional-piano-services.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
> From: Henry Mooney
> Subject: poor damping
>
> Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
> the ringing?
>
> You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
> it made the piano sound better...
>
>
>
>
> Original Message------
>
> I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
> Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.
>
> ------------------------------
> Mark Dierauf
> Concord NH
> 603-225-4652
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Reply to Sender : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=67f78c5a-90e2-4051-89c8-67c0522d1a7d&MID=712590&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
> Reply to Discussion : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=712590&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=7575456456&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
>

Henry and Benjamin-
To complete the "retrofit" of vertical dampers, you would also need to add spoons to the wippens and install an extended damper lift rod to lift dampers from the pedal.
Be my guest!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2020 17:20
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: poor damping

Technically, yes you could. Many of the uprights I see had the damper rail already drilled. You would just need to order the dampers and install. Others you would need to do more extensive work. But yes, it is possible. 

More importantly, why would you though? I believe those notes are left undampened so they can ring synthetically as the lower notes are played. Muting these notes would make the tone more dull I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of why those notes don't have dampers. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(805) 315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: poor damping

Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
the ringing?

You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
it made the piano sound better...




Original Message------

I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

The experiment is simple; just mute off the treble section and see if it sounds better.
I suspect that the open treble strings might contribute to the power and brilliance of the low treble, hence its almost universal end of dampers at 67 to 71.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2020 00:57
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: poor damping

Has anyone ever tried actually damping the 'bell tones' in order to stop
the ringing?

You could install dampers for all the higher notes if the client thought
it made the piano sound better...




Original Message------

I often find that these older verticals will ring noticeably more after tuning, and if the customer hasn't ever heard the piano at pitch and in tune before the effect is heightened. You can them that the now consonant, undamped upper strings are doing their thing, as designed, and although you can probably make significant improvements through replacement and regulation it can never be entirely eliminated.
Also, reducing lost motion on verticals causes the dampers to lift earlier, so always watch this when raising capstans.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

Use steam, needles, brass brush or electric toothbrush to soften and lift the old dampers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

There is a reason why dampers do not go all the way to the end of the scale in both uprights and verticals. The short string lengths and high frequencies of these strings require them to be free from dampers plus there is a certain amount of sympathetic vibration  from other strings as they are struck by the hammers.   The answer to the problem on this particular piano may never be found. Crusty hard damper felt may be one of the factors but the spring tension on the dampers may be weak . Have you pushed on the strings to see if the dampers follow the strings ? Another suggestion is to weave some string cloth on the strings between the hitch pins and rear bridge pins in the bass end. As others suggested customer may be used to an electronic instrument and is a novice pianist who got the piano free. It is what it is. Chances are if you propose new damper felts with no guarantee it will solve the issue the customer will live with it.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-29-2019 08:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: poor damping

Use steam, needles, brass brush or electric toothbrush to soften and lift the old dampers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

meant to say grands and verticals

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2020 12:07
From: James Kelly
Subject: poor damping

There is a reason why dampers do not go all the way to the end of the scale in both uprights and verticals. The short string lengths and high frequencies of these strings require them to be free from dampers plus there is a certain amount of sympathetic vibration  from other strings as they are struck by the hammers.   The answer to the problem on this particular piano may never be found. Crusty hard damper felt may be one of the factors but the spring tension on the dampers may be weak . Have you pushed on the strings to see if the dampers follow the strings ? Another suggestion is to weave some string cloth on the strings between the hitch pins and rear bridge pins in the bass end. As others suggested customer may be used to an electronic instrument and is a novice pianist who got the piano free. It is what it is. Chances are if you propose new damper felts with no guarantee it will solve the issue the customer will live with it.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-29-2019 08:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: poor damping

Use steam, needles, brass brush or electric toothbrush to soften and lift the old dampers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2019 12:31
From: Scott Cole
Subject: poor damping

Hi all,
I've read all the archives about ringing dampers, but just want to see if anyone has experience with this particular piano.

Piano: 1933 Sargent (made by Monarch).
Pedal: lost motion correct
Dampers: each damper checked--all follow strings, and none lift prior to 1/3 hammer blow distance. Muted off entire bass section with special tool (my sleeve)--still ringing badly. Or normally...
Nothing else changed with regulation or dampers.

Situation: tuned the piano, and took out lost motion. No other work done, then the customer complained about the ringing. I didn't specifically listen for amount of ringing before I worked on the piano, although I always check note-by-note to make sure dampers/keys are functioning. I guess with this age of piano my expectations for damping effectiveness aren't that high.

So my initial thought is that the customer, a novice that just got the piano for free, has only taken notice of the damping issue because the piano has been tuned and he's actually spent money on it, but the piano hasn't really changed. Kind of like the customers who just got their piano tuned after 20 years (only because a relative pointed out the piano was out of tune) and is now hyper-sensitive to the tuning.

Any thoughts? Not sure how else to help the customer. Doubtful that he will go for new dampers, and it's even possible this piano brand never had good damping.

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Just as there are banjo players who make their own banjos which differ
from any other banjo you can buy in a store... including banjos that have
NO frets... a musician is an artist and has a certain sound that he
wants.

I know for example that a very tall upright is going to have more ringing
than a short upright.

I also know that the music you are playing may require more precise or
less precise damping.

Debussy could be played on a piano with practically no dampers at all.
But a twentieth century piece with very rapid staccato passages in the
upper range would require precise damping all the way up to c7 or higher.

Some classical pieces (possibly Beethoven) will have very sudden changes
in dynamic. Now, if Beethoven wants a second of TOTAL silence, after a
loudly struck chord in the 6th or 7th octave range, that is exactly what
he wants!

Books have been written about what Beethoven, in particular, really meant
by his dynamic markings, and the current consensus is that he meant
exactly what he asked for.

For example, the first movement of his 'Moonlight' sonata where his
(German language) instructions basically say to play the entire movement
with the pedal held down all the way through.

I also know that major major pianists, like Andras Schiff or Alfred
Brendel pay such close attention to these details that there is simply no
way such a person would accept any 'ringing' that was not a 'ringing'
that they WANTED.

I am not at that level myself but I listen to a lot of that period on
keyboard, and my rather tall Yamaha P2 rings in the upper two octaves to
the point that it would drive one of those guys crazy.

Okay, no one at that level plays an upright... but that's irrelevant.
Most of them have played uprights and would do so if called upon.

So if some teenager who is hoping to be the next Horowitz tells you he
wishes you would put dampers on the higher strings of the upright he is
currently learning on, who is to say he is wrong?

Not an argument: just some thoughts.

Hank Mooney


Original Message------

meant to say grands and verticals

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------