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1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

  • 1.  1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-15-2020 14:56
    This is the action from a 1949 Steinway D, though the keyframe and maybe the whole action originate with another piano. As you can see, the keys are chock-full of lead! How does it feel when you play? It feels light. I've been told the action is too light! For me this seems to lay to rest any idea that leading up the keys contributes significantly to inetia. (And those are the extra large 21 gram leads you're looking at here)

    Five years ago I restrung the piano and installed new hammers and shanks. I had always meant to do some touchweight analysis but everyone was happy with the piano, even the visiting pianist who said it was a bit too light. This being covid times, I'm finally getting around to it. Balance weight is all over the map and not especially low like I had expected.
    I thought I would be strategically removing some lead and bringing the BW up into a normal range but some notes are actually way on the high side. I checked a few of those keys and they already have quite a lot of lead!

    Friction is low, though more consistent. Any thoughts?


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    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Posted 05-15-2020 15:16
    Notice they tried to avoid leading the front of the key. Having lead as far back as it is, means more mass but less inertia. I believe this is how Steinway was leading the accelerated actions back then, trying to keep the lead in the half of the key closest to the balance rail. If the leading pattern was moved to the front of the key, a significant number of lead weights could be eliminated. That would result in less mass in the key, but higher inertia...hardly an improvement.

    Leave it alone would be my take. If most folks like it, what is the point in making it adhere to some theorist's notion of what a pretty chart should look like? 



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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-15-2020 15:46
    Indeed, Jim...

    IMG_20200515_154101133.jpg






  • 4.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-15-2020 15:49
    Oh, you said Accelerated, not Permafree. It's also says accelerated to the right.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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  • 5.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-15-2020 15:51
    Anyway, you can see why I think the action is younger than the piano.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Posted 05-15-2020 15:19
    If you want to do the least amount of work, reducing the FW (removing lead) to attain approximately 40g BW. With a scale remove the lead that will give that BW. Since you have the BW already, create a new spreadsheet for the Hypothetical BW. The formula would be Current BW minus Desired BW. The result will be the deviation needed to achieve the desired BW.  The extremes are higher than 40 and would require the addition of lead but since they are rarely played, they can be left alone. A move of 2 to 3 grams is negligible unless one of the inboard leads are that amount.

    edit:
    1g FW = 1 g BW.   If your BW is 32 and you'd like 40:  32 - 40 = -8.
    This indicates that you will need to remove 8g FW to target a 40g BW.
    Likewise, if your BW is 48 and you want 40:  48 - 40 = 8; so you'd add 8 g to the FW.

    Have you graduated the SW. If the extreme hammers are too heavy, that would cause the elevated SW.

    The original hammers may have been heavier thru the middle, requiring that amount of FW. Changing to a lighter set without addressing the FW would cause the center to have a lower BW.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-15-2020 19:44
    It's hard to know if the lead is excessive without knowing the front weight.  Since the leads are located mostly toward the balance rail then it's possible to have this many leads and not exceed front weights that would indicate high levels of inertia.  Recall that inertia is mostly based on the relationship between the action ratio and the hammer mass.   The FW along with the BW gives a good indication of that relationship.  To get a better sense, having the FW data along with the BW on some sample notes would allow one to perform a simple analysis.  

    Otherwise Jon Page's advice is good.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 09:58
    Okay, here are front weight and balance weight on some sample notes:

    C4  FW 42.4g   BW 41g
    C16 FW 44.2g   BW 35.5g
    F#22 FW 39.4g   BW 34g
    C28 FW 33.9g   BW 37g
    C40 FW 27.4g   BW 41g
    C52 FW 22.1g    BW39.5g
    F#58 FW 24.6g   BW 37g
    C64 FW 19.1g   BW 41g
    C76 FW 15.9g   BW 38g





  • 9.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 11:09
    Recall that inertia is mostly based on the relationship between the action ratio and the hammer mass. The FW along with the BW gives a good indication of that relationship.

    I need to understand this better. Can someone point me in the right direction?
    I have a sense that a higher action ratio means higher inertia and definitely a heavier hammer means more inertia, but what is this relationship between them that is so important? And how do FW and BW tell us something about this relationship?

    Send me to a physics textbook if you must.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 12:47
    For explaining the contribution of the component parts to inertia and the dynamic performance of the piano action this article is the best single article I have found http://pianobytes.com/ActionAnalysisinertiaa.htm.

    The recent series of articles by Nick Gravagne in the PTJ should be helpful and his program might be helpful as well if you don't have your own spreadsheet.  John Hartman wrote several articles on inertia in the piano action in the PTJ some years back as well. 

    In terms of why the FW and BW give an indication, this relates to David Stanwood's FW maximum ideas.  While this doesn't directly address inertia (it's an indirect approach using component relationships) it is an indication that the relationship between the action ratio and the strike weight is not optimal which in turn requires an excessive amount of lead to balance the action at a reasonable balance weight.  While the FW itself, the amount of lead and its location, is not a major factor in the action inertia, it does suggests that the relationship between action ratio and strike weight (or hammer mass) is not optimal and tells you that the inertia will be, in this case, too high.

    In your action the data is somewhat varied, probably owning to a somewhat inconsistent strikeweight curve, but generally it is on the high side.  That means that there is a relatively high FW required to achieve a mostly "highish" balance weight.  It suggests that the relationship is not optimal.  I generally like to see the FW around 85% of maximum with a BW between 36 and 42g.  My personal target is 38 grams BW.  If I have a higher BW then I'd prefer a somewhat lower FW.  Below is a table of FW maximums as outlined by David Stanwood.  While this is not a number written in stone it can be used to help determine if that relationship is poor.  BTW the FW can be too light as well which would indicate that there is not enough inertia, the action may feel "fly way" or the pianist will not be able to feel the mass of the hammer well enough to be able to adequately control the throw.  

    It also tells you that the amount of lead is not so important without knowing the location.  While there are quite a few leads in these keys, that they are located closer to the fulcrum shows you how many leads can be used without exceeding maximums if they are located closer to the balance rail.  

    Curiously, you reported that the complaint was that the action felt too light.  That I only attribute to an issue of personal taste with the pianist.  I would not call the action "light" and the inertia would be, relatively speaking, on the higher side.  But in these numbers there are some notes that are light, 34 BW at F#22 for example.  I think what is apparent is that the action is quite uneven, if these numbers are an indication.  There's certainly nothing inherently wrong with a 90% or even 100% FW max number but it does indicate higher levels of inertia.  That may or may not be desirable.    

    What you need to determine is how to proceed to optimize this action for this player.  Depending on the scope of the work you will undertake that will depend.  For the minimum amount of work to get a good result I would:

    1.  Plot the strikeweights, create a trendline (if you know how to use excel you can do this easily--this would probably be a 2nd degree polynomial)  and create a smooth curve, as it appears you have some outliers.  Then adjust the strikeweights to match your curve.  
    2.  Determine the desired BW which may well be on the high side (maybe 42 is what the pianist wants), and then either calculate the FW specs which  you can do if you know how to manipulate the Stanwood formula which would be FW = (SWR x SW) - BW + (WW x KR)  where
    FW = Front weight
    SWR = Strike weight Ratio aka Action Ratio
    SW = Strike weight
    BW = Balance Weight
    WW = Wippen Weight
    KR = Key ratio.

    I would l guess your SWR is probably somewhere around 6 but you can figure that out by measurement or plugging in samples to the above formula.  If so then a simplified formula using 6 as the SWR and 9 for the term (WW x KR) gives you: FW = (6 x SW) - BW + 9.  If you use BW = 42 then you can further simplify to FW = (6 x SW) - 33.  If note #1 strikeweight is 12 then the front weight would be 39g.  That's under maximums and suggests that with a higher BW, if that's what the player wants, this arrangement could work.  

    If you don't wish to calculate the FWs then just do a weigh off after you smooth the SWs and adjust the leads accordingly.  FW to BW relationhiop is an inverse relationship 1:1.  For removal of lead, take it from the front lead first even if it means you are just cutting away some of the lead (rather than removing the lead, plugging and redrilling a new position or inserting a smaller lead.  If the leading pattern location transitions from note to note in a consistent way then I would probably do that.  If it is very inconsistent (Steinway is usually pretty consistent in the pattern) then you may want to make the pattern more uniform.  

    Of course if they want to have you rebuild the action then you can do that and consider changing the action ratio.  I would at least go to a 17 mm knuckle hanging if this one isn't (if it's original it will be 16 mm probably).  That would allow you to achieve a higher BW, or static starting point, but lower the inertia somewhat in the process as well as being able to remove some lead.  You'll have to calculate all that out as to what is optimal.  

    % FW Max Note
    100.00%
    41.3 1
    41.1 2
    40.8 3
    40.6 4
    40.3 5
    40.1 6
    39.8 7
    39.5 8
    39.3 9
    39.0 10
    38.8 11
    38.5 12
    38.3 13
    38.0 14
    37.8 15
    37.5 16
    37.2 17
    37.0 18
    36.7 19
    36.4 20
    36.1 21
    35.8 22
    35.5 23
    35.2 24
    34.9 25
    34.6 26
    34.3 27
    34.0 28
    33.7 29
    33.3 30
    33.0 31
    32.7 32
    32.4 33
    32.1 34
    31.7 35
    31.4 36
    31.0 37
    30.7 38
    30.4 39
    30.0 40
    29.6 41
    29.3 42
    28.9 43
    28.5 44
    28.1 45
    27.7 46
    27.3 47
    26.9 48
    26.4 49
    26.0 50
    25.6 51
    25.1 52
    24.7 53
    24.2 54
    23.8 55
    23.3 56
    22.8 57
    22.3 58
    21.8 59
    21.3 60
    20.8 61
    20.2 62
    19.7 63
    19.1 64
    18.6 65
    18.0 66
    17.4 67
    16.8 68
    16.2 69
    15.5 70
    14.9 71
    14.3 72
    13.6 73
    13.0 74
    12.3 75
    11.6 76
    11.0 77
    10.3 78
    9.6 79
    9.0 80
    8.3 81
    7.6 82
    7.0 83
    6.3 84
    5.6 85
    5.0 86
    4.3 87
    3.7 88



    ​​​​

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 14:21
    Thank you much David!
    That gives me plenty to chew on. I actually replaced hammers and shanks 5 years ago with 17mm WNG shanks. I did not take strike weight measurements then. Now seems like the time. Since friction seemed low I checked a few hammer center pins and they all seem to be down to about 1 gram. In the past, dealing with felt bushings, I've gotten noticeable tonal improvement by pinning hammer flanges tighter. I haven't tried this with WNG parts but i think I will try it and take SW measurements while they are off the rail.

    The odd thing is that this piano really does feel light. Before I start changing things I'm going to play it a bit more and try to get a feel for it's present state, whether it's hard to play soft or loud. The pianist who said it was too light was visiting from Spain so I don't have to worry much about him. I just want to optimize it as best I can.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 15:00
    Correction: I just looked at the shanks and the knuckles are in the 16mm position (WNG). (Why would I have done that 5 years ago?)

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 16:15

    I don't have enough experience with the wng parts to comment on what is normal friction.  I aim for 6-7 swings using Renner shanks.  I assume the wippens are a little lighter which allows you to remove a bit of lead but the wippens won't contribute anything to inertia.

    it's certainly a reason to do a compete survey of SW, UW and DW with the purpose of smoothing the SWs and seeing what the friction readings are F = (DW-UW)/2. Your samples are pretty varied. If nothing else you can then create a uniform BW at whatever you decide to target and address the low (or high) friction areas. The current setup doesn't seem to have a problem with low inertia. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Posted 05-18-2020 18:22
    I use WNG shanks (type I) exclusively. I pin at 4-6gr measured at 20mm from the center, and put the 6mm in the treble...for tonal reasons.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2020 22:49
    Jim, when you get a new set of wng flanges do you usually have to do some repinning to get them to that 4 to 6 grams?





  • 16.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Posted 05-19-2020 08:51
    Depends on the set. Recently they've been around 4-6g or stronger. I keep over sized and undersized pins in stock, and we use hot air to reduce crazy tight bushings. Checking pinning and adjusting pinning goes pretty quickly once you get the hang of it.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-19-2020 10:33
    Do you use a heat gun for that hot air?





  • 18.  RE: 1949 Steinway D with Lots O' Lead

    Posted 05-19-2020 13:10
    yes with a heat shield to direct the flow. A little heat goes a long way, so go very conservatively until you get the hang of it. If you go too far, just pin up a size. You can't tell the friction you have until the part cools, so we train some compressed air on the bushing after hot air, to see what the cooled part friction looks like.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------