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Steinway value

  • 1.  Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2021 18:33
    Hello all,
    I have a customer with a Steinway B (ca. 1890) that he needs a value for insurance purposes; not a claim, just a valuation for the policy.  It was restrung about 40 years ago, and had action work (new hammers, original wippens) about 20 years ago.  It also has plastic keytops from a long time ago.  It tunes up nicely and is playing ok.  I have absolutely no idea what a piano like this is worth.  I was hoping maybe some of you who work on a lot of Steinways, rebuilding and such, might have some idea of a value figure.
    Also, I don't do official appraisals, but is it okay just to give him a professional opinion of value for insurance replacement value?

    He also has an English Bentside spinet built in 1978 (Thomas Hitchcock replica) and a French double manual harpsichord (Taskin 1769 replica) built in 1977.  He wants values for these as well, but I have absolutely no experience with these types of instruments.

    Thanks!

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    Laura Wright, RPT
    Ivory Keys Piano Service
    Durango CO
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2021 19:06

    Laura.  

    May I suggest you ask Leo Holder to do an official appraisal of this piano. He has an ad in the classified section of the Journal.  He will work with you, and give instructions what you need to do. The customer will need to pay for this. 


    Wim 



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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 09:56
    Laura,

    A few days ago, a client had a piano appraised by Leo Holder. Appraisal by a Certified Piano Appraiser was required by a moving company to determine how much extra insurance the client needs to purchase for the piano to be covered while being transported. Holder did this in conjunction with the technician that had serviced this piano until recently. The client reports that Holder was good to work with.

    For what it's worth, this client already had another local technician do an appraisal, before she found out that a Certified Appraiser was required. This UNcertified appraisal of her 1928 Steinway model B that had been rebuilt 26 years ago came in at $60k, an amount that, by all other reckonings, is way out of line. That technician asked questions such as what the client paid for the piano in the first place. I was baffled by the relevance of such a question, since it could have been $1, or $100k. Personally, I don't see what bearing that would have on the piano's value today.

    The Certified Appraisal for this piano came in at $43k. A major piano retailer pegged the value at $25k, and said that if it were optimized (rebuild the action again, new keys and back action, neither of which the piano received in its first rebuild), the value would be in the low $40ks. An unofficial appraisal by a Certified Steinway Appraiser (I didn't know there was such a thing!) is its value as rebuilding stock, since none of the components used in the rebuild were Genuine Steinway Parts. (It now has a Gravagne soundboard, Bolduc pin block, and Renner action parts. The work was done by Richard Davenport, RPT.)

    The musical value of this piano is high. It has been used and thoroughly enjoyed by a professional pianist with a DMA in Keyboard Collaborative Arts from the University of Southern California. She is sorry to have to part with it, but is relocating and downsizing. (Taking its place will be a high-end upright, the search for which I have mentioned in another thread.)

    So, for all of the time and money spent on appraisal, we have confidently determined that the monetary value of this instrument is somewhere between a few thousand dollars and the mid five figures.

    Sheesh!

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 4.  RE: Steinway value

    Member
    Posted 05-28-2021 19:44
    Unless you want to open yourself up to legal problems it is better to refer a customer to a person who has the professional credentials to do piano appraisals. They know the market and value of instruments based on their experience and knowledge , understanding of the instruments construction and rarity as well as buy/sell prices. I use Crofton Piano in Maryland, Ridgely Fischer . I am sure Leo Holder is highly qualified as well  . You may have to assist the appraiser in answering certain questions, taking pictures etc. You should charge for your time as well

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
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  • 5.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2021 22:21
    Generally speaking an insurance appraisal does not require a licensed appraiser. If you simply ask If they will accept your professional opinion they will answer yes or no. Also, if "replacement value" is specified simply contact the nearest SS dealer and ask for the current retail price on as nearly identical a unit as they can come up with. That is your value. We generally recommend replacement value for anything that is still in current manufacture. A model B should be in the vicinity of $100k. If a mahogany, walnut, or rosewood case it will be higher accordingly. 

    If the owner is wanting to donate the instrument and get a tax deduction, you will absolutely require the licensed appraiser. This is where the law requires it and it is very specific and all forms need to be filled out to the letter, and all rules must be followed exactly. They have a fee, and you add your fee(s) on top of that. You will need to inspect the piano thoroughly and describe it in writing, etc. Then you will have to inspect it again after delivery to the institution receiving it, etc, etc. You should charge accordingly. 

    Determining "street value" for a piano no longer in production is not a precise science, however you should be prepared to document how and why you came up with the figure. 

    No complete answers here but hopefully a little help.

    Pwg


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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 6.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2021 22:56

    Peter. 

    while it is not necessary to get an "official" appraisal for insurance purposes, the insurance company holds all the cards. Most are requiring this kind of documentation, and if you don't give them what they want, they will deny the claim, even if the claim comes in years later.  



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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 7.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 10:09
    Greetings,
       I am not sure about what the law requires.  And I don't really know where the term "Certified Piano Appraiser" comes from.  Who is doing the certification of such individuals?  If a competent technician writes an appraisal based on what the market in that area is doing, and can quote documented prices paid, I think it would be difficult to hold them liable for anything.  I wrote appraisals over many years for  damaged pianos that were insured, and many pianos donated to the university, and there was never a problem with the IRS or insurance companies. The validity of an appraisal will ultimately be decided in a court, if there is a question about it and I don't know if "Certified" means anything.  
    Regards,   


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    Ed Foote RPT
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  • 8.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 10:30
    Ed,

    My understanding is that the donation of a piano to a non-profit that the donor values at $5k or more requires evaluation by a Certified Piano Appraiser. It is the Internal Revenue Service stipulating this. Don't know about the certification process itself.

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 9.  RE: Steinway value

    Member
    Posted 05-29-2021 10:54
    I have seen and heard of ridiculous values put on pianos such as a Bechstein that was "rebuilt" here. It was more like a refinish job . The letter of value was written by someone on the West Coast who put it at $80 k or something in that range. Owner was convinced that was she should get. She paid about $25 k for the work she had done and I am not even sure she could get that,.

    Insurance companies want to settle and try to get out of paying expensive claims. I often worked on damaged pianos referred to me by an insurance adjuster and gave thorough and fair estimates for repairs. Many involved high gloss polyester repair which was time consuming, rewarding and profitable. I never had an issue until I declined to do a white high gloss Yamaha owned by an MD. White is tough to repair and the damage was on the lid. Even though the doc had 100% insurance there was refusal to pay for a hi-end, quality on site repair by an experienced finish expert. Instead they farmed the job out and the entire lid was ruined by the low bidder. They tried to have me convince the owner it was the best it could be. Fortunately I had before and after pictures and of course I did not participate in insurance fraud.

    I think there is some merit to the term certified and it is mentioned on the web site of the appraiser I use. He wrote an official estimate of value that was acceptable to the IRS and met their standard of proof. That came in handy when a donors CPA needed it to prepare the donors tax donation claim for a Baldwin Grand given to the school district. In recent years the IRS has cracked down on donation deductions which in many cases are exaggerated. 

    I think it is worth referring appraisal work to people that do it and are current on what documents will stand up. At any given point in time a piano is worth what a willing buyer and seller can agree on. As we all know sellers have an idea they can get $25 k for the Steinway that has been sitting for decades in their relatives un air conditioned house/barn/shed. They saw the prices on ebay and Craigs list.

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
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  • 10.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 10:56

    The IRS language is "qualified appraiser" not "certified" and you are qualified if your education, experience, or expertise in, in this case, pianos qualifies you. 

    https://www.appraisalinstitute.org/IRSAddsQualifiedAppraisertoEstateTaxRules/

    And then there's the specific requirements of the appraisal itself

    https://www.marcumllp.com/insights/new-irs-regulations-what-constitutes-a-qualified-appraisal




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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 11.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 14:24
    IMO, all of this confirms that if an instrument is still in production (or the manufacturer still exists) it is wise to use the current REPLACEMENT value. This way there is no quibbling about it's validity. 

    Street value is anybody's opinion, but weighted in terms of what same or similar instruments have recently SOLD for (not advertised for).  This is where the "qualified" appraiser earns his pesos (and he is held responsible by the IRS for accuracy so it is in his best interests to be current with the market). 

    Many people (including techs) do not realize that things have changed as far as appraisals go. It has become much more complicated (purely due to fraud).  And the cost of acquiring an appraisal is now significantly higher as a result. 

    Wim,  you are probably right. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 12.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 17:25

    The most important part of an official appraisal is the "legalize" language. There are certain words and phrases that will pas muster with insurance companies and the IRS, that if you don't use them they will automatically reject the claim. 

    That is what Leo will do for you. It's not about how much you know about piano, although he is a full time RPT. It's that he "speaks" their language. 

    wim



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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 13.  RE: Steinway value

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2021 19:14
    I recently had Leo do a donation appraisal.  It went very smoothly. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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