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Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

  • 1.  Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2019 11:04
    I started a thread in the "Fine Aural Tuning" community and want to invite you all over there to check it out, especially those of you who teach or mentor students. I think it's time to compile a list of teachers and start talking to one another. There are 5 areas of concern that I bring up, so take a look and let me know what you think.  Here's the first paragraph of the post:

    I have been tutoring students at the annual convention for the past few years. I have a room and a piano and the home office coordinates the tutoring. I had a couple open time slots this year, so I thought it might be interesting to see if anyone attending the convention would be interested in getting together and talking about how we all go about teaching aural tuning. This is of particular interest to me because I feel some pressure from the growing numbers of ETD users who say,"The results are what count, not the method." As we all know, ETD tunings are quite good, scoring consistently in the high 90s on our tuning exam. But I wanted find out if I was alone in wanting to stand up for the need to promote, uphold, and, yes, teach aural tuning skills. It seems to me that these skills are under attack.

    Hope to see all you people with an interest in teaching and learning aural tuning joining up on the Fine Aural Tuning community.

    Richard West


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    Richard West
    Oro Valley AZ
    520-395-0916
    440richard@gmail.com
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  • 2.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2019 11:15
    Richard.  

    I appreciate your efforts and you got a lot of good ideas from the member who came to your forum last week.   But instead of creating a separate page on my PTG about tuning tutoring, perhaps you could share all your ideas with the new education committee, once it's up and running. That committee will oversee all aspects of learning, including tuning and technical tutoring.  


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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2019 11:35
    I appreciate your thoughts, Wim. I would expect the education committee to pay attention to what might come out of teachers of tuning talking about what they do. My concern is that tuning instruction is at a crossroads. If we don't deal with the issues and challenges of learning to tune aurally, it's going to die or become irrelevant. I'd hate to see that happen. It needs to be addressed now. 

    Having said that, I understand how difficult it will be for any committee or group to make real progress. You know as well as I that education has been a high priority forever, and yet very few sustained programs exist in PTG, especially for new and inexperienced members and especially at the local level. I don't care who does something, me or the education committee or the home office or God himself, but we need to know how to teach aural tuning efficiently enough that a person can be accomplished enough to pass muster with 6 months of training in a correspondence or home schooling environment and without overtaxing a volunteer mentor/teacher. 

    Richard West








  • 4.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2019 12:07
    Richard. 

    I don't think its a lack of effort. I think it's a lack of information.  There are some books on aural tuning, but they are out dated.   

    What we need is a comprehensive tuning book using modern language and techniques. And it needs to be on line.   Do you want to give it a try?

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 5.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2019 17:55

    Hello Folks,

    The majority of my time these days is teaching aural piano tuning. I have a distance learning school that works very well. Over the years, I've learned quite a bit about teaching aural tuning. My students have an instruction manual and access to an online video library. The written exams are submitted via email. All aural tuning exercises are submitted via YouTube or another platform. I respond to all correspondence, usually within 24 hours. I believe it is essential that my students receive feedback on their work as quickly as possible. 

    One advantage of this system is that each student can see and hear their own work. With my comments in hand, they can review each assignment. Sometimes, my feedback comes in the form of a video. Also, there are phone consultations. Having the opportunity to chat about what's going on is very helpful. I'm excited about some of the new ideas I have for improving what is already a very workable system. 

    The main issue students have is understanding interval relationships. Therefore, I place a lot of emphasis on how the intervals used in tuning work together, as opposed to teaching various temperament sequences. 

    I also see this same issue with those who take the tuning exam. Aural tuning is not easy. It takes commitment. I ask my students to take the PTG tuning exam all aurally. I want them to pass in all categories in the 90's. That doesn't always happen. There's this thing called nerves. But I'm proud of them no matter how things turn out. 

    Richard is correct. The Guild needs people who can teach aural tuning. But keep in mind, just because you can tune a piano aurally, doesn't necessarily mean you can teach aural tuning. Isn't it the same with those who play the piano? Some who can play can't teach. Some who can teach don't play. Some can do both. As an organization, we need to pull together. If there is a will, there is a way. 

    When it comes to professional piano tuning, those with the attitude that it's all about the 'results' and not about the method' is missing out. For some of these folks, (certainly not all) they don't know what they don't know. High-level aural tuning skills contribute to regulation and voicing skills. There are things you can do as an aural tuner that you cannot do with a machine. I'm not against ETDs. They certainly have there place. I just know how important aural tuning skills are. 



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    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
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  • 6.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2019 21:49
    I wonder if more of the "results only matter" tuners ever think about the time they may need to explain why a specific pianos intonation sounds the way it does? Modern ETD's have great utility, but the idea that no one will bother to learn how to lay out the bearings from 1-88 by ear alone will mean at some point in the future no one will be able to make a new ETD from scratch. 

    Of course maybe some adversarial neural network can do the task, but still someone will have to define the statistical parameters of the data set. (In tuners speak, define the beat tolerances and feedback loops.).

    NEVER GIVE ROBOTS RIGHTS!

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2019 10:15
    Hi all,

    I never learned to use an ETD, and 35 years in, I don't think it's going to happen.  However, encountering some excellent, accurate, stable tunings achieved by a colleagues using one who does not have aural tuning skills, I changed my mind about the necessity of learning to tune aurally (though I've always thought it makes you listen more carefully and trains the ear for things like voicing).  Then my colleague, Amy Zilk, changed my mid back again with her observation that we're always being asked:  "Is this piano in tune?"

     I don't know how a person without aural tuning skills could answer that question quickly, before getting out their device and playing every note.  I can tell in under a minute, and am asked this so often that I think it remains a powerful reason to learn aural tuning.

    Warm greetings,
    Linda Scott, RPT

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    Linda Scott, RPT
    Portland, OR
    503-231-9732
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  • 8.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2019 11:12
    Rick, You have been a stalwart support of aural tuning; I appreciate that. As I hear from you and others who are teaching, I feel like I need to ask a very basic question. Am I wrongly concerned about the teaching aspect? Maybe the first step is to compile a list of who is actually teaching out there and have each teacher provide some information about what approach they take. I've always thought that PTG needs to address the problem head on with some sort of teaching program. Perhaps PTG could turn the task over to people like you. Perhaps that's actually what we're doing. But is it enough? Is it important that teachers know about each other and can compare notes? 

    Richard West








  • 9.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2019 11:49
    Richard and Rick. 

    There are different methods of teaching anything, whether it's tuning, regulating, or tying shoes.  There are many teachers teaching the same thing, but in their own way.  What we need to develop is a set curriculum.  All the people who wants to serve on a committee to teach tuning need to get together and agree on how to teach all the aspects and in what order.  

    This is not so they can follow a set course of instruction, but so that the students learning tuning can be assured that no matter where to go, or who is teaching it, the same thing will be taught in the same order.   


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 10.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2019 12:35
    I'm not so sure that everyone teaching the same thing the same way is the optimal approach, Wim. Yes, it would standardize how we do things as an organization, but is the McDonalds-ization of tuning instruction really our goal?

    I attended Dan Levitan's class at the convention on aural tuning of the midrange, which was geared specifically towards facilitating ETD users approaching the aural part of the RPT tuning test. None of the information imparted was new to me. I was there to see how someone I consider a master instructor of aural tuning presents the material to a group of ETD-oriented tuners. Learned a lot that will help make me a better instructor of aural tuning. I would urge all others in the filed to take in Dan's approach. Much to recommend it!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 11.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2019 12:52
    Alan

    having a curriculum doesn't necessarily mean only one approach to tuning is taught.  The curriculum could include several different approaches and even temperaments. It could even include a section on historical tunings.   A curriculum just means the class is taught the same way every time it's taught.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 12.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Posted 07-17-2019 22:27
    I have great respect for those who can tune entirely purely aurally. Particularly in the bass aural tuning is really important and people have to know what they're listening for and the musical effect created. For these reasons learning aural tuning is to be encouraged, although I maintain that with the exactitude available from one or two ETDs, but not all, a greater stability can be achieved over a long period. 

    But what about the top two octaves and the top octave especially? Tinnitus is taking its toll and I'd be hard pushed to get a proper tuning up there without an ETD.

    An experienced friend warned me that tuning would make my ears worse and I'm thinking of starting to use ear defenders in the future.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 13.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Member
    Posted 07-18-2019 11:44
    I probably was perceived to be one one those that says it's only the results that matter. I only believe that for the test. As long as you don't cheat, how you get the right answer should not be prescribed by the testing officials. The testing officials then can become too involved in the education process. This can affect how they judge the tests. The testing officials should only be concerned with whether you produce a competent tuning in a timely fashion. The test was devised before the ETD was accepted. I know it's difficult to abandon a test that people worked so hard to make so perfect. Change is the only constant in the universe. Everything has to evolve and so should the test and the requirements for RPT. Instead of re-testing every so many years, Why not make ongoing education a requirement? My girl friend is a massage Therapist and has to do so many hours a year for her license. Aren't we interested in providing the best technicians for the public to call? One test and BOOM, you are qualified for life? 
    I had wanted to make the convention this year but there was just too much stuff happening in my life at the moment. I would have gladly taken the aural instruction. 
    I do feel aural tuning skills make you a better tuner. I run my 4ths and 5ths and 3rds and 10ths. I use the ratio of the 4th to the 5th to see if I like the octave spread. I run the contiguous 3rds. Basically becoming familiar with the sound of the intervals when they are right helps speed up the testing of your own tuning in the long run.
    And I just play the piano. I settle it in and see if I like the overall. When I don't like it, I tune to what I think sounds the best and get the RCT to adjust to that. With experience, now I can do that before I finish the unisons and have the whole thing tuned out. Trusting the ETD 100% is not good.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Posted 07-19-2019 10:37

    The Education Committee would like to hear as many opinions and approaches as possible. Rick butler and I are members of that committee.

    My personal opinion, arrived at with great difficulty and angst, is that we are already in a new era of tuning, and I hope to live to see how it turns out.
    I think of some of the milestones or borders people have past in past times, some very recent. I, for one, once said I would never have the time to bother with computers. Later, in the mode of some very great writers, I said I'd use the computer for emails, but never for creative writing, for that only pen and paper would do. Now I think and create on the computer with an ease that would require several hundred notebooks and a librarian.

    There must have been a transition time for carpenters' levels ("What'sa matter with you. Can't your eye see straight?)

    This doesn't mean we forget how to write, and don't stop to take a look at the door frame before driving the last nails or screws. (I'm building a small storage building, and have not driven a single nail, only torx bit construction screws. if something goes wrong, you reverse the drill, back out the screw and re-use it!).
    In much of the 19th century, tuners tuned to the woodwind instruments in the ensemble. Then scientific pitch standards became the norm...sorta, i.e. tuning forks. Today?

    Here is a link to a report from a piano technician, PTG member, asking one heck-of-a question:

    https://finetuningco.com/blog/international-survey-on-etd-use-for-concert-piano-tuning

    Personally, I don't want aural tuning to "die out," but I think it may largely take on a different form from what we have known. To keep aural tuning (may I try the term "aural discernment?") active in PTG, it will have to take on a form useful, practical and enjoyable to our members in their daily work. If we want people to learn to tune an aural midrange, we need to show them why it is a valuable skill.

    (Some of my ideas about this are being published in my Journal series, one of the most effective ones in September. My dream plan is to make hearing so easy that people will chuckle at the thought that aural tuning was once considered difficult.)

     



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 15.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 12:16

    I agree with Ed that we are already in a new era of tuning, and I too hope to live to see how it turns out. 

    I found Jordan Porter's articles very interesting. His comment that "ETDs are invaluable tools when placed in the proper hands," speaks to the issue raised in this thread. 

    He points out how 78% of concert hall tuners use ETDs in their work. I'm more than familiar with concert halls and tuning. I've earned the greater part of my living working in one particular concert venue. Therefore, I know for a fact how useful it is to be proficient with an ETD. They come in pretty handy. 

    The crucial point we need to focus on is the one about ETDs being placed in the proper hands. Jordan said that "Many of the respondents stated they tuned strictly aurally for years before implementing an ETD." (italics mine)

    That is exactly my experience! I don't know what I would have done in countless situations if I wasn't as proficient as an aural tuner as I was with and ETD. When you're working on a concert hall stage, and you only have a short time to work, an ETD could get in the way. Not only do you need to have the aural acuity that Ed is talking about, but you must have the ability to aurally tune a piano.

    So, I'm with Ed about aural acuity. But I'm also very big on learning basic aural tuning skills. For that, we still need folks to teach aural tuning!



    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 12:40
    Rick,

    I'm in complete agreement with your post. I'm not trying to diminish ETD use. That is the new wave. But diminished use of aural tuning is not good for the profession. It's the bedrock of what we do. Hence the need for more and better ways of teaching. It's not just preserving an older method; It's advocating a skill that has just as much relevance as it has ever had. And it's not just old timers who believe in that. Neither method should be denigrated. Both should be encouraged equally. It's just that one is easier to learn than the other. I'll let you guess which is the easier one.

    Richard
     






  • 17.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 12:50
    I'm in total agreement with what Richard is aiming to do, but we have to remember that not all members want to learn aural techniques. There are many members who are totally satisfied with just turning on their ETD and let the lights to the talking. 

    That doesn't mean we should offer classes on tuning, and have the teachers ready and able to teach aural tuning. But don't expect the classes to be full. Those who are using an ETD with satisfied customer won't see the need to learn aural skills. They will find out themselves when they loose customers who really care, that maybe there is something to this aural tuning thing.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 18.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 13:06
    Hi, Wim,

    I'm not sure PTG has done a good job is advocating for aural tuning and searching for ways to address a critical need, the teaching of aural tuning. Here's input from that meeting at the convention, from 10 or 15 people. They have such good points. 

    Richard

    The Importance of Aural Tuning in Modern Times

    from a hastily called, open meeting at the Tucson PTG convention, San Ignacio room, Friday, July 12, 2019

     

    Aural tuning keeps me in touch with the real world, a tactile connection that counters the screen filled world of computers, phones, etc.

    Tuning becomes my own artwork.

    I have confidence that I can work without an ETD.

    I'm more than an expert in my job; I'm a professional with a career.

    Maybe only 5% of the people I tune for hear the difference, but there's a good chance that those few people are the very ones whose opinion matters to the other 95% that don't hear a difference. Word of mouth endorsement makes a difference.

    Competence in aural tuning creates a storehouse of professional knowledge. Knowing the vocabulary and language of aural tuning improves my status as a profession, even if I don't use it every day.

    The more knowledge I have, the better and more varied my business will be. I'll be better at selling myself and my services.

    Aural tuning of keyboards has a tradition of 300 years or more.

    Aural tuning enhances voicing skills. In fact high level voicing skills may not be achievable without good tuning skills.

    Customers may wonder whether a tuner can actually hear what the are doing.

    Being able to tune intervals aurally, improves my ability to be able to  tune unisons.

    I can tune when the ETD fails,

    ETD's can have problems with poorly scaled pianos, especially at the bass/tenor break.

    If you have no clue about how a piano should sound, you  can't get short pianos to be their best.

    If something happens in the middle of a concert, you may be in trouble. If you have to touch up, but the orchestra ran late and time is limited, can you easily do a touchup?  A quick aural check my be better.

    Some professional pianists (George Winston, for example) are able to find tuning problems and expect you to be able to fix them.

    Sometimes complaints about "tuning" actually about tone. How do you know the difference?

    There are career issues. Many prestigious colleges and universities expect technicians to be able to tune aurally.

    If you're using your ETD throughout the piano, going back to be sure that nothing has shifted is more easily done aurally.

    Pride! Boosted ego!

    The whole thing is an aural event.

    Steinway has only aural tuners.







  • 19.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 13:38
    Richard. 

    All the comments are right on and I have no arguments with them.  All I'm saying is that we need to look at teaching aural techniques as an option for members, not a requirement.  I'm afraid that when we do start offering the aural classes that we will take an "have to" attitude.  

    I don't foresee doing away with some sort of aural requirement on the tuning exam, so there will always be some Members who will take enough of the aural classes to pass that. But I'm afraid that the aural tuning techniques that have served most members so well on the past will become electives rather than required material.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 20.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 16:59
    Briefly, it seems that this is as much a cultural issue as it is a technical one. Aural tuning is traditionally at the core of our ethos. So I wonder if the difficulties in teaching lie more in transmitting these internal values. No matter how well the subject is taught, one will only advance by emersion and practice. Another effect of digital influence is our relationship to time (and space). Will students be willing to take an extra 10 or 15 minutes per piano to practice laying in a temperament and tuning some octaves? In a day and age where we get frustrated when an app takes more than a second to load, perhaps not. If they don't practice, the problem doesn't lay with the teachers or their methods.
    If someone learns to tune aurally well enough to pass the exam and then drops it, they probably won't have internalized the process to the point of gaining the true value of aural/interval tuning, those being intuitive skills that inform every aspect of our craft. Even if they employ some interval checks to their ETD tunings (probably with open unisons), that won't cultivate the skills and insight of an accomplished aural tuner.
    I know that took me years of work before I began to get a holistic grasp of tuning and the integrated system that makes a piano function, and sing. The loss of aural tuning as an integral part of our culture won't be solved simply by getting people to the point where they can pass the tuning exam, once. That is really as much symbolic as it is effective. I'm pointing this out as a problem to be solved, what we have now has kept the issue on the table and that is a lot considering the efficacy of ETD's on a purely practical level.
    Not so brief. Sorry.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2019 18:01
    Steven said:  Another effect of digital influence is our relationship to time (and space).

    Richard replies: I had a brief conversation with Dan Levitan and he brought up something related to what you said in your post. When we talk about intervals we talk about wide and narrow, which is a physical "space." But we aren't really dealing with a physical space when we tune. We aren't taking a screwdriver and wedging keys right or left to make the distance between two keys wider. We're dealing with a sort of metaphysical width. Dan didn't give it that label, but it seems to somewhat fit.

    Let's say we define a particular interval as the spacial difference between the numbers 5 and 10. To make the space wider we either have to move the top number up, or the bottom number down. But that conceptualization is neither completely spacial nor completely mathematical. So right off the bat tuning involves a rather weird way of talking about things. Add to that the problems we have in making intervals work in that line of thinking with actually accomplishing that by physical forces, and we can begin to grasp why tuning is slippery to learn, especially at the beginning. Unisons are much easier because there's no weird space; one string is simply sharp or flat to another. Spaces don't play into unisons as much

    I also had a conversation with David Anderson and he conceptualized tuning much the same. Relax, take care of your muscles. Then don't over think things. Don't be so cerebral. Tuning is simple and fun. If we can get people to plug into David's clear joy in tuning, we might help ourselves out as we discover how to teach this weird science (or art, or craft, or.......).

    I've had some interesting conversations lately.

    Richard







  • 22.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2019 12:14
    I am serving alongside Ed on the Education Committee and I, too, have had a great deal of "angst" lately about this and a few other recent trends in PTG. While I have embraced technology I have not abandoned the skills and knowledge that is the basis for that technology.  I use my aural skills every day. I still believe that we need to understand the core elements on which the digital technology is based. Do we just want to promote technicians who push a button and go without ever having studied or even tried to master the basics? We are trending that way right now.  

    Since ETDs are allowed on the tuning exam I always have to ask why more Members are not upgrading to RPT, like this person Ed cited who has an elegant and very professional looking blog.  At first I thought he must be a non-member of PTG but he is an "Associate " (better change that!) He has been tuning for many years....why isn't he an RPT? I have asked this of many Members and they sometimes are honest and say they tried and failed. Many more have admitted that they have not tried because they don't need to in order to sell themselves as professional piano technicians and make a good living. And, sadly, this is true also of those who have little or no skills at all!

    So when we talk about Aural v. ETDs, core competency skills, and education, in general I think at the heart of it we need to determine is if Members are even interested in taking exams at all anymore. Is RPT status still something desirable? I'm beginning to believe that it no longer is no matter how we change the exams. This concerns me greatly. 

    ~ jeannie 

    Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    206-842-3721





  • 23.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2019 12:35
    The Education Committee needs to differentiate between teaching aural skills as an art form in order to become a better piano tuner, and teaching aural skills to just to pass the exam.  

    As I said before, which Jeannie pointed out, there are member Members who are content just turning on the machine and follow the bouncing lights.  

    The Education Committee needs to concentrate on teaching tuning skills to those who REALY want to learn that skill.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2019 13:22
    I could not agree more with what Jeannie has said - which is why I think the Guild has a marketing problem:  the acronyms "PTG" and "RPT" are not more widely known today than they were when I joined, 35 years ago.  If those terms had status and significance in the marketplace, it would be an important motivation for associates to strive for RPT status.

    PTG has not spent or done enough to perpetuate and ensure the acquisition of professional standards, by making "RPT" and "PTG" mean something to the musical public.  We need some 21st- century marketing.  I don't know how to do it - that's not my expertise - and at 66, I don't have that much longer in the game, but I do think the public deserves basic standards for piano service, and am concerned about the future of the Guild.

    Linda Scott





  • 25.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2019 14:43
    Perhaps we shot ourselves in the foot (feet?) in the late 80's and early 90's when we revamped the tuning exam, changed the designation from Craftsman to Technician, and "modernized" our logo. When we dropped the tuning fork logo we inadvertently dropped a link to the aural tradition. It seemed to be an effort to get up to date but I think it diminished the brand. Pianos are in fact products of 19th century technology. Acoustic musical instruments are among the few things that have survived more or less unchanged into the 21st century. Even light bulbs now have bluetooth technology embedded in them and doorbells take your picture. There will always be something anachronistic about our craft and we should embrace that sensibility.

    Maybe we should add a second designation, keep the RPT and revive the Registered Craftsman for those who pass the tuning exam aurally. Raise the standards of both to the standard we have for examiners or lower the tolerances in the scoring, (from .5 cents to .25?). Rather than asserting that aural tuning delivers better objective results, which is arguable, assert that high aural skills are indicative of a higher level of understanding and craftsmanship, as Wim says, tuning as an art. Because there is a level of musicianship involved, we are not mere technicians any more than graduates of music schools are. Perhaps the RPC would require a higher level of skill with regard to tone building as well. This wouldn't be a short term solution but it might get us back on track. 

    And bring back the tuning fork.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-21-2019 13:25
    Steven,
    Actually, the current ptg logo does have a tuning fork. In fact, it has three tuning forks across the top which are also part of a modernistic keyboard of seven (almost) keys. 
    ~ jeannie 

    Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    206-842-3721





  • 27.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2019 15:27

     

           The camera was invented but some portraits are still painted. The PTG is similar to a painters guild increasingly dominated by photographers. Nothing against photography but it is not painting.




  • 28.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-21-2019 11:27
    It appears that this conversation has gone far beyond the technical parameters of Pianotech and I am partially to blame for that. Any further discussion about PTG categories and testing, etc. should be moved to PTG-L. There had been a flurry of posts to which I was responding and I overlooked the source of this one. 
    My apologies to all. 
    ~ jeannie 

    Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    206-842-3721





  • 29.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-21-2019 12:03
    I hope that those with ideas about improving the teaching of aural tuning will continue to express their ideas, without getting too political, that is.

    Richard West





  • 30.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Posted 07-21-2019 13:00
    "Successful design process starts and ends with the end user in mind," i.e. "What does the user want or need?"
    To successfully teach new aural tuners, we will need to show them positive reasons for having aural skills.
    So far, I have not met anyone who tells me they regret having learned aural tuning, and those of us who have learned some skills seem to be always trying to get better, so there must be something attractive about it, though we are clearly past the era when it was the only good way to tune a piano.
    We need to consider if our ways of teaching have made learning harder than it needs to be. Tuning theory is complex and highly intellectual, but what we really do when we tune is rooted in the less intellectual parts of our brains and bodies. If we can reach there easily and more directly, we may find that tuning is not so hard as we make it seem.
    Consider this:

    https://www.npr.org/2018/06/12/619109741/clicker-training-for-dogs-is-adapted-to-help-surgeons-learn-quickly
    and this

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4773331/



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-21-2019 13:14
    Ed,

    The clicker method may be the way to go. I don't know. And I'm not sure how to beta test it. Can we hire these guys to work with us to develop clicker tuning instruction?

    The rewards of aural tuning are not apparent in the beginning, I think. Whether we use a clicker, or just positive reinforcement, there have to be rewards and the tasks small. If we could come up with a method that consistently gets the job done in 6 months or fewer, we'd really have something.

    Richard








  • 32.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Posted 07-21-2019 13:21
    I've asked an ETD maker to make a small change in the display that may help with this, and am planning to test a.s.a.p.
    Getting two learners to work together may be a good way as well.
    Details, details.....

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Wanted! Teachers of Aural Tuning

    Posted 07-21-2019 13:21
    In an age where certainly in the UK piano tuners are becoming few and further between, and as electronic keyboards take the place of real instruments such that no-one in their right mind would set out to be a piano tuner as a career, it's important not to put anyone off.

    But it's a matter of where they come from.

    I started tuning instruments upon learning the harp at around the age of 11, and then went to organs, and learned the historic temperament ideas. In those days there was no ETD, and so whilst not tuning ET I knew what I was listening for. Moving to the piano was daunting from these instruments, so I used electronic methods to begin with as a physicist, and wrote a programme for a Sinclair Spectrum computer to output all the frequencies, jumping up to 881Hz and progressing from there to stretch the octave, and using a dual beam oscilloscope. Those days are two decades ago. Since then in maturity I've come to be hearing more and knowing what I'm listening to, and choosing what to hear and what to listen to, but watching the raw waveforms on the oscilloscope gave a perspective about the origins of piano sound.

    Going full circle I'm now advocating piano tuning more in the style of organ tuning, and for that for tuners more used to standard piano tuning, an ETD is rather helpful - although one needs a strict methodology on how to use it. That can only come from knowing what one wants the machine to listen for. So aural training of people not having come through long experience is really rather helpful, even if one's goal is to tune the piano as an organ. I can hear shudders of horror about this interloper suggesting something non-standard achieved in a non-standard way, but there are advantages in what my systems achieve. On a recent test on a Bosendorfer 285VC the sound became
    - sweeter
    - 6dB louder
    - more interesting and engaging for musicians trying it
    and continued tuning of a similar size Kawai over three years has led to its soundboard maturing in the nature of a violin or cello frequently played, and becoming continuously sweeter.

    So training in aural tuning may well be very usefully a means to an end, and an important one, but not necessarily an end in itself.

    After tuning the Bosendorfer, for a joke in the same showroom I tuned the resident Jazz pianist's favourite hotel-foyer piano, a Yamaha C2. Being short of time I unashamedly banged through it using a ETD in one hour 5 minutes, a record for me. We then got the jazz pianist to try it upon his return. His playing became slower, more meaningful, less cursory, more feeling, more interesting and he then started to resurrect some of his classical repertoire. In following days, visitors to the showroom preferred the humble C2 over the bigger and more expensive models conventionally tuned, asking why the C2 was a better piano. And the showroom owner had to explain that it was the tuning, not the piano. But that tuning was only achieved by aural knowledge of what the ETD was doing. And there are ETDs and ETDs and not all are sufficiently controllable to achieve what my ears want them to do. Blind use of ETDs cannot be as effective as use of such instruments with the context of aural understanding.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594