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Delignit

  • 1.  Delignit

    Posted 12-24-2018 10:05
    Does anyone know if Delignit is available to us anywhere these days?



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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 2.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2018 11:10





  • 3.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-24-2018 11:46
    Nick,

    Just ordered one on the website.  I'll let you know if they call wednesday and say,  "oops, we forgot to take that off the website".

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2018 14:29
    Jim -
    Did you remember to order it WITH the Decal?  Otherwise, it's not really Delignit.
    Is this for block-capping?

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-24-2018 15:09
    I see Steinway's nasty behavior has weaseled it way into the fine recesses of your brain...f..k'em.  Anyway I have had a decal designed and made by Decals Unlimited for my own  rebuilds. "Jim Ialeggio Pianos",  because every time I delivered a piano my customer wanted to know why my name wasn't on the piano. I have now granted Decals Unlimited exclusive license to sell me my own decal.

    Delignit for a Delignit capped Hybrid block. I like the feel of them.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 01:02
    Falconwood ... which I understand to be from the same company but a superior product is certainly still available. It's all I've used for decades. 

    Re: Vanda King.  She doesn't stock anything... just drop ships from Schaff and other suppliers she has accounts. She's not a technician, either. Also, based in Canada. 


    Keith Akins, RPT
    Piano Technologist
    715/775-0022 Mon-Sat 9a-9p
    Find me on LinkedIn





  • 7.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-25-2018 03:58
    Jim,
    Weren't you making nossaman hybrids for awhile? 





  • 8.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-25-2018 09:00
    Yeah, I was making Nossaman style blocks for my own rebuilds. But back in those days, I would buy the 10mm stock from Ron, who had purchased a run of it from Delignit, made to his specs, I believe. His stock ran thin, and then he had a fire in his shop. So one must buy thicker delignit or falconwood, bandsaw and plane to get the 10 or 9mm.

    Keith, do you know precisely what the difference is between Delignit and Falconwood?  I hear its like rock, but have not used it to really know if that's correct or not.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-25-2018 09:53
    Falconwood or as someone once called it, Compreg (suitable for transoms); has many more layers. It seems the glue to wood ration is almost 50/50.
    Snap, crackle, pop.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 10:32
    As I understand it, they are two of (maybe) 15 grades of densified (veneered) beech products, with Falconwood being significantly harder. I think it was originally introduced by Cliff Geers in the late 1970s, who was accustomed to working with Baldwin's densified laminate pinblock product Amberlight (I think that's the name I remember) and who needed an independent source. Willis Snyder soon followed in this choice. (These were among my heroes from 40 years ago, and not to forget Steve Jellen.)

    https://www.delignit.de/en/about-us.html?ma=Delignit®-high-tech-for-all-situations

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 20:42
     I have referred to the Baldwin 41-ply pinblock as "compreg" because the original process was developed by Baldwin for use as engine mount material in Navy mine-sweepers. It was tougher than bronze, aluminum, etc., and was obviously non-magnetic. After the war ended the process was modified and piano pinblocks were the result. It was a lousy material for piano pinblocks but Baldwin loved it -- it did, after all, pass the "boil test." 

    Falconwood is a similar product. It shares all of the bad features of that made by Baldwin and doesn't contribute anything in exchange. 

    ddf




    ------
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 12.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 20:48
    I used Falconwood blocks a lot in the 80's. Stopped when Tony no longer sold it. At the time I was told the block material had so much glue holding the layers together that in a sense, it was the glue holding the pins.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 13.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 10:23
    Jim, Falconwood is now available, in custom thicknesses, from Tim Dixon RPT at Great Lakes Piano. http://www.greatlakespianocompany.com/ I sampled it a couple of years ago in a Nossaman-style pinblock, and found it workable, but measurably higher torque than Delignit.  If Delignit is no longer available, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to Falconwood.  I'd probably experiment with a slight reduction in thickness from the Nossaman 9mm.

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    Michael Spalding RPT
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943
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  • 14.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 13:19
    Jim, I do know something about Falconwood because I was actually approached by Tony Geers about taking over his supply business when he was ready to retire from piano work (and, I think, spend more time racing Corvettes). Anyway, here's a brief description. 

    Delignit is simply wood -- in this case European beech, which fulfills the function in Europe that maple does for us here. Falconwood is compressed European beech. It is 20% denser than plain wood. As a result, there are 20% more wood molecules in a given surface area.  

    What that means is that the tuning pin hole in a Falconwood pinblock can be larger diameter because there is 20% higher friction for any given pressure. This, in turn, reduces stress on the wood. Thus, in Falconwood, a hole that's .010" undersize to a 2/0 pin will wind up with 125 inch/lbs of torque after stringing compared to the necessity of a hole .025" undersize (or more) for solid maple "hexagrip" style blocks. 

    Also, while there are many quality blocks available, it Falconwood does have a record of no documented failures in its history of use in pianos. And, as with other pinblock made with thin laminations, it is more stable. 

    Hope this helps...
    Merry Christmas!


    Keith Akins, RPT
    Piano Technologist
    715/775-0022 Mon-Sat 9a-9p
    Find me on LinkedIn





  • 15.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 13:40
    Where did the "Falcon" in Falconwood come from?  (My mind works in weird ways sometimes).

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 16.  RE: Delignit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2018 14:35

    Kieth sai

    Delignit is simply wood -- in this case European beech, which fulfills the function in Europe that maple does for us here. Falconwood is compressed European beech. It is 20% denser than plain wood. As a result, there are 20% more wood molecules in a given surface area.

    So, to understand: Delignit and Falconwood are both made of European Beech, but Falconwood is compressed. 
    -How is this compression achieved?
    -Are veneers different thicknesses? 
    -Number of veneer layers in each? (given same total thickness block)
    -How many alternate grain directions?
    -Type of glue?
    -With 20% compression, are wood fibers (as such) destroyed?  
    -Ratio of glue to 'wood'?
    -Difference in torque characteristics of compressed/uncompressed beech and glue?

    What that means is that the tuning pin hole in a Falconwood pinblock can be larger diameter because there is 20% higher friction for any given pressure. This, in turn, reduces stress on the wood. Thus, in Falconwood, a hole that's .010" undersize to a 2/0 pin will wind up with 125 inch/lbs of torque after stringing compared to the necessity of a hole .025" undersize (or more) for solid maple "hexagrip" style blocks. 

    Not sure I'm understanding.  If Falconwood friction is inherently higher, wouldn't you be leaning toward a larger hole there?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-26-2018 18:51
    Hi David. I'm not an expert on Falconwood, but I am knowledgeable with wood in general. So, being that no one else has offered any more info, I'll at least offer my thoughts.

    Delignit is simply wood -- in this case European beech, which fulfills the function in Europe that maple does for us here. Falconwood is compressed European beech.

    I really doubt that the wood is actually compressed - as you suggest, that would tend to destroy the wood I should think.

    It is 20% denser than plain wood.

    I think that is misleading. The final product may well be 20% more dense than beech, but the final product is both wood and adhesive. Many of the adhesives commonly used are fairly dense - much more dense than the wood. I wouldn't be surprised if the adhesive plus the beech in a chunk of Falconwood is 20% more dense than beech.

    As a result, there are 20% more wood molecules in a given surface area.

    I strongly suspect that is crazy talk. But I'm certainly open to learning something new......

    So, to understand: Delignit and Falconwood are both made of European Beech, but Falconwood is compressed.
    -How is this compression achieved?

    I suspect compression is achieved by means of common methods - mechanical (clamps) or vacuum bagging (atmospheric pressure) or even some sort of pneumatic device. But I should think we are talking using compression to press the laminations together during glue-up - they are not actually compressing the wood itself into a smaller volume.

    -Are veneers different thicknesses?
    -Number of veneer layers in each? (given same total thickness block)
    -How many alternate grain directions?
    -Type of glue?
    -Ratio of glue to 'wood'?
    -Difference in torque characteristics of compressed/uncompressed beech and glue?

    All interesting questions - I'd like to know also.

    -With 20% compression, are wood fibers (as such) destroyed?

    As mentioned above, I doubt wood fibers are actually compressed into a smaller volume.

    What that means is that the tuning pin hole in a Falconwood pinblock can be larger diameter because there is 20% higher friction for any given pressure. This, in turn, reduces stress on the wood. Thus, in Falconwood, a hole that's .010" undersize to a 2/0 pin will wind up with 125 inch/lbs of torque after stringing compared to the necessity of a hole .025" undersize (or more) for solid maple "hexagrip" style blocks. 

    Not sure I'm understanding.  If Falconwood friction is inherently higher, wouldn't you be leaning toward a larger hole there?

    I think that is what they are saying - to get the same tuning pin torque, the Falconwood needs a larger hole (0.010" undersize to a 2/0 pin) compared to a Steinway-style block (that might need a 0.025" undersize hole). I don't know why they conclude that the larger hole would cause reduced stress on the wood though. Seems to me that if you have 125 inch-lbs. of torque in either type of block, you're going to have a very similar stresses on the wood. Or maybe they just mean that there is less wood and more adhesive - maybe that's how they figure less stress on wood - less wood!

    But regardless, doesn't Schaff stock and sell Delignit? I buy a few blocks every now and then to cap multi-lam blocks with - seems it was Schaff that I ordered my Delignit from. Did they stop selling it?

    FWIW, I'd be willing to sell 8mm thick Delignit (or whatever thickness) or Delignit-capped multi-lam blocks to anyone. I have a nice bandsaw that resaws Delignit easily. I also have a very nice 20" planer with the helical cutters that cuts a very smooth surface.










    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
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  • 18.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-28-2018 17:15
    Terry's right on Schaff carrying Delignit. They had stopped a couple of years ago, and I didn't check their site before asking my original question...just ordered some.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Delignit

    Posted 12-28-2018 20:43
    The drill bits for drill Falconwood are .271" for a .281" tuning pin. For Delignit, I have used .257" and occasionally a .261" for the high treble.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------