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Palm Nailer

  • 1.  Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2020 09:55
    25-30 years ago, when palm nailers were first mentioned on PianoTech, I didn't buy the expensive one mentioned, but instead got the "affordable" one from Harbor Break. It blew out its seals after several stringings, and I went back to manual with the 2# hammer.

    At this point (with 72-y-o hands/wrists), I need a palm nailer. What does everyone use? I'm a one-man shop doing ~2-3 stringings/year.

    TIA,

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-18-2020 15:03
    I  use the Bostich palm nailer.  Unfortunately the specific tuning pin nose is no longer available.  maybe we can get someone to make a run of them...like maybe Dana Mazagglia???

    i made a soft iron slug that sits in the nose, but at least once a pin field the slug gets away and mars the finish somewhere.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2020 06:58
    On Jun 18, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Jim Ialeggio via Piano Technicians Guild <Mail@ConnectedCommunity.org> wrote:
    I use the Bostich palm nailer.

    Is that the PN100 or PN50 model? (Most brand names have a $40 one and a $90.) I'd pick the more expensive one this time. I'm assuming that because what we do is not driving nails into softwood, but rather using steel rod to convince laminated rock maple that whatever the hole size was before (.250", .261"), it now is .281, that the palm nailer has to be pretty rugged. I looked at user reviews, in particular, the 1-stars to find out what the most common shortcoming/failure was, it was the seals (o-rings or gaskets). The "back-talk" from rock maple having an over-sized pin beaten into it, must be a big stress on the pneumatic chambers that the piston is based on.

    Unfortunately the specific tuning pin nose is no longer available. maybe we can get someone to make a run of them...like maybe Dana Mazagglia???

    As I remember, my "MasterFasteners" model (made in Taiwan - how long has it been since Harbor Frick sourced that country) handled tuning pins right out of the box. Maybe I was holding the pin upright at the mouth of the hole with my LH… I even fashioned a depth stop which brought the pins to a very uniform height.

    At any rate, how complicated would that nose have to be? Just round stock with a hole turned in on a lathe, deep enough to bottom maybe 1/8" above the tang.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-19-2020 04:37

    I too, bought a palm nailer about 30 years ago.  I modified one of the nail drivers to fit a tuning pin and used it on several pianos.  My driving head worked fine but I was not happy with the feel and control of the tool.  Most objectionable was the recoil into my hand and when the psi was high enough to drive at a reasonable speed there was no fine control while approaching the final pin height.  I then purchased an air hammer and there was no turning back.  I bought an extra pointed punch driver (not sure of the real name) and modified it for tuning pins .  See photos.   The first time I used it, it jumped off the pin and put a nice divot in the plate so I increased the depth of the drilled hole from 1/8" to 1/4".  It has never jumped off a pin since and I've done many dozens of pianos.  You can put the tool solidly on the pin and then pull the trigger whereas the palm nailer was either on or off. I couldn't live with the way it turned on the second it made contact with the pin.   I'd be interested if anybody out there has really ever been satisfied with their palm nailer.  My personal opinion is that the use of the palm nailer is borderline bogus.  Maybe I just got the wrong one, even though it was an expensive brand or maybe there was a flaw in my procedure.  rsvp



    ------------------------------
    Glen Hart
    Grand Junction CO
    970-434-5558
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2020 07:09
    Thanks, Glen. I greatly appreciate your observation about the recoil of the air hammer vs. the palm nailer; it's my primary concern. And witness Jim's difficulty with a nose made specifically for tuning pins, you probably have a ready market.

    BTW, what's the brand and model. As the dean of piano technicians in Boston, the late Frank Hansen used to, "I spent alot of money on it, because I only wanted to buy one.)

    As far as a gauge for final tuning pin height, the driver's shaft doesn't look any fatter than the tuning pin punch I use. I attached an upright hammer shank to the side of the punch with a pair of pipe clamps (after having a welder drop me a bead out of which I could file a a square, positive stop for the top end of the shank). Make the last blow a gentle "love tap", and the plate doesn't get marred and the top end of the shank doesn't get mashed.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-19-2020 08:12
    Glen...you have such cool ideas!  What is the make of the air hammer?  My son had a cheap harbor freight one, and it was useless.

    I have the Bostich PN100. Here is a picture of the slug I insert in the nose so I don't beat up the top of the pin. If I put the slug in the nose before hooking up the air, it can shoot the slug across the shop. So the palm nailer works, but it is somewhat exuberant, shall we say.  When using it, I have good control over the tool, if I sit on my shop barstool (high chair), and brace my forearms on the stretcher, two handed. I tap to final height with a drift and hammer...old school.



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-19-2020 08:18
    Glen, on a separate note, though I have good case finish protection and can install a board on a newly finished case without damage, I always have trouble setting up the stretcher for protection. What have you got there protecting the stretcher in the video

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2020 09:29
    a few minutes ago, Jim went:
    "Glen, on a separate note, though I have good case finish protection and can install a board on a newly finished case without damage, I always have trouble setting up the stretcher for protection. What have you got there protecting the stretcher in the video"

    Glen will probably come up with something elegant, but here's my quick'n'dirty: if the bellyrail felt is not in place yet, bend some thick cardbord starting at the level of the block in between the plate flange and stretcher, then up over and down the stretcher. This I hold in place with ivory key clamps (Schaff #251). This only needs to be wide enough for the section you're working on (not the entire stretcher).
    ​

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2020 13:34
    I bought a Senco palm nailer back in the day, and it has served me well (although I do not do a lot of restringing).

    Sounds like I need to try out the air hammer, as per Glen's post.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-20-2020 01:24
    The tool is an Ingersoll Rand; model 121. I think they're about $100.00+- for the kit.  I've never had any problems. The other tool is an impact coil lifter. I've had the main body forever and gone through several ends over the years. I think they're still available from the supply houses.  It seems I have fallen in and out of love with it over the years. As for the stretcher protector/sliding trays I think the photos are better than any explanation I could give. I also made a board that protects the top and front of the keybed so it can be used  as a work/assembly surface.

    ------------------------------
    Glen Hart
    Grand Junction CO
    970-434-5558
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-20-2020 07:56
      |   view attached
    I discovered I already had an air hammer, in a collection of Chinese air tools bought the same time as my compressor, and intended for use after running air outlets around my shop. Never got to it, and there the tools are, after 20 years brand new.

    So it looks like all I have to do is to have my machine shop cut this hammer tool off right at the taper and lathe turn a hole in that end ~5/16" did. x 14" deep.

    Yes? No?

    I also bought the Mehaffey impact coil lifter but found that with too much force, it would dent the wire at the underside of the coil, leading to a break in the wire. Moderation in all things, I guess. But my stringing technique is to form the coil on two companion pins, drive both of them to final height, and do my finished coil dressing before they get obstructed by further pins. Completely done, pair by pair.

    Glenn, love the "tool deck", especially the back action rotater.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-20-2020 18:43
    You've got it - That's exactly it.  I shortened the length as much as I could so I didn't have to kink my wrists so much when I held the tool.  The length is 3-3/4"  and I've never had a problem touching a plate strut.  For those who don't want the expense of a machinist you could cut it to length with a hacksaw, clean and square the cut on a belt sander, carefully mark the center and drill it out.  The steel is hard so start with a new blade and sharp twist drill.  Drilling a pilot hole  that is the  size of the web of the second twist drill will prevent the web from skating across the surface and reduce swearing.  Use cutting oil. The hole in the end doesn't have to be exactly in the center. Holding it solidly while drilling would be the biggest problem for most techs.  Having a cross feed table on your drill press would be nice for positioning and to hold the vise. I assume everyone raced right out and bought one after viewing my post in "moving knuckles" last week.  yeah right. lsmft  

    ps. these air hammers and chisels are sold for pennies at pawn shops and a good used one is infinitely better than Harbor Freight

    ------------------------------
    Glen Hart
    Grand Junction CO
    970-434-5558
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-20-2020 19:42
    actually...I bought one. It would be nice not to ding the plate every time at least once. I would have thought one would heat the end of the tool up to soften the steel somewhat, before drilling...no?




    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-20-2020 22:44
    That would be ideal but you would have to heat to bright red (otherwise it won't soften) and cool slowly (the slower the better), then after annealing and machining, you would have to reheat to bright red,(otherwise it won't harden) then quench, clean off the scale (so you can see the next color), heat between  straw and blue depending on the steel and quench again in oil or water or air depending on if the steel is O1, W1, or A2 respectively which tempers the steel and takes out the brittleness from the second quench from red.  If you don't harden the steel it will mushroom in use and if you don't temper, it will shatter. Remember, this is a hammer. This is what I go through with the tip of every Hart Damper Tool (available from Schaff and Pianotek (sorry, I just had to say it)) except I buy the steel soft.  If you know someone with a carbide twist drill then it's easy. In one of the pics it shows me drilling with a lathe.  I did it with a high-speed steel bit and without annealing. But I also have a very nice drill 'bit" sharpener.    So in answer to your question: yes, you're right,  but...   - You could just leave it soft and it would probably be fine but just not last as long.  If you end up with it too hard is could be dangerous.  On another note, I forgot to mention in the previous post that the 118 degree point of the drill leaves a conical shape in the bottom of the hole so it doesn't flatten the end of the tuning pin.



    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 06-21-2020 08:14
    In the pic I posted above, the slug I use is soft steel.  It does mushroom, but not appreciably at the pin contact. It mushrooms at the palm nailer anvil contact, which I then un-mushroom once a piano...but the pin contact itself, seems to be relatively stable, in its hardware store soft state.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2020 10:34


  • 17.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2020 10:39
    Glen went:
    "You could just leave it soft and it would probably be fine but just not last as long.  If you end up with it too hard is could be dangerous."

    Thanks for the recipe for hardening the punch. It's actually not file-hard, even down to the business end tip. So it would appear that the initial softening won't be necessary. I tried out this tip on the side of my medium-size vice/anvil, dimpling the latter but not flattening the former. This may be a sign that the current toughness (even though not file- hard) may be workable. At the least I'd get a few stringings done with it before the deformation would tell me hardening was in order.

    Jim went:
            "If I put the slug in the nose before hooking up the air, it can shoot the slug across the shop."

    That's the thing I love about the air hammer: its punch is captive.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2020 10:25
    So, me being stuck in the 19th century I made an interesting discovery. If I use a 2 lb sledge hammer (on the ASSUMPTION that the more mass the better), it destroys my arm for two weeks or more after the job (mostly I think from lifting it up).  

    So I started thinking (always dangerous)...what if I reduce the weight? Would that slow me down because I have to hit it more times?  Then I remembered decades ago watching a stronger in the Sohmer factory (who was lightning fast and good) using a medium sized ball peen hammer and getting the pins to nearly finished height in two strokes consistently. So I decided to try it with my own (1 lb.?) ball peen hammer.

    Result:  No pain, faster work, less fatigue, less errors, more control. In short it's a win win all the way around.  I was totally blown away at the difference.  (Yes, I still tune all aurally and do a darn good job too). 

    Just my .02

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 08-11-2020 20:13
    Just a followup on this thread...

    Thanks to Glen Hart for his pneumatic chisel idea to replace the palm nailer.  I have used a palm nailer since I started this work, but never particularly liked it...I always managed to damage the plate at least once (usually more than once...ahem). At the end of the day, when I was tired, is when the tool would get away from me.  So I gave Glen's idea a shot..and I am sold!  Way more controllable...way more.

     
    Drilling the hard steel took some work. At first I used a bunch of older bits I didn't mind burning, to work into the 1/4" deep 21/64" recess in the sawed off chisel. But that wasn't getting me there, so I ordered a carbide bit to finish the recess. If I were to do it again, I would probably buy a 5/16 carbide ball ended endmill to make the cut, as the 118 deg angle drill bit cutting edge was too steep. It kept contacting the tuning pin heads in a way that damaged the bluing. It took a bit of doing to get it so it was not damaging the pin heads. I ended up spinning several 2/0 pins into the recess, with valve grinding grit to match the recess business end with the shape of the pin head. It still barkled the pins a little, so I put some leather in the recess. To my surprise after a couple of pins wore away leather at the contact point, enough stays in the recess such that there is no damage at all to the pin head...even better than my palm nailer setup in this regard.

    By the way, I have no idea what "barkled" means. It was a typo, but I couldn't figure out what I had meant to type...so I decided to we needed a new word to describe scraping bluing off of tuning pin heads...barkled it is!

    Thanks Glen!

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Palm Nailer

    Posted 08-14-2020 03:26
    You're more than welcome Jim and thank you for the follow-up.  Your comments reminded me of something I left out of my description when I made the tool. That is, after drilling out the recess I rounded the bottom of the hole with a carbide burr.  However, I think your idea of using a ball end mill is better.

    ------------------------------
    Glen Hart
    Grand Junction CO
    970-250-9596
    ------------------------------

    Original Message