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discolored, plunky strings

  • 1.  discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 10:54
      |   view attached
    Hello All,

    I've experienced this before but have never seen it this bad. The winding on these 2 strings (C#2; see photo) are discolored all the way down. The neighboring strings are not. They are incredibly "plunky", as if the damper isn't lifting all the way, except it is. It's on a Kimball spinet & the piano student isn't using this key, so the owner wants to leave it for now, but she asked me what caused it & I have no idea unless these strings aren't original. These people weren't the original owners so that's possible. They aren't universal strings. Anyone else ever experience this? Anyone know what's happening? There are some lower strings with a more typical, spotty discoloration, but it is minimal & they sound normal. TIA!

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
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  • 2.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 10:58
    PS: On the slim chance the discoloration was a coincidence, I did check the bridge & bridge pins. They seem fine.

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 11:29
    TIA = Thanks in Advance? (Learning jargon here )

    "PTG - Expand your horizon - Share the vision:
    Providing Quality Service for the World's Pianos

    Good, Better, Best. Never let it rest, 'til the good is better and the better is best."

    To schedule an appointment online click here http://bit.ly/2ErRaav

    George W.R.(Bill) Davis, RPT, SERVP
    The Piano Place GA
    2315 Rocky Mountain Rd NE
    Marietta GA 30066
    (770) 778-6881

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 4.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 11:57
    Maggie,

    I have observed similar, both the discoloration and/or just the dead sound. Though I cannot recall details at this time I also have no explanation. I do remember a Yamaha vertical that had a terrible problem this way. Several notes in a row totally dead and nothing could revive them.

    It seems to me though that I remember reading a new piano brochure many years ago and it stated that it's bass strings were "copper plated" (which I thought was odd). Yes, it was a low end piano of which make I don't recall.

    Sorry for being helpless.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 5.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Posted 03-18-2019 14:17
    It looks to me like the strings with the bad sound are wrapped with a different material - iron instead of copper. The tubby sound is consistent with iron wound strings as they age. Replacement is the only real improvement option.  (You can try twisting them but don't expect consistency in tonal improvement, if there is any).

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    Jurgen Goering
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  • 6.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 18:46
    Maggie, I've run into this on a lot of entry level American pianos of a certain age. Differentiation in color of the copper in different sections of the bass. The brighter, copper colored strings have some life left in them and and darker browner strings just give a dull thud. While the darker strings are still copper colored if you peek under the dampers, I've found that the corrosion is actually the red, rust color of ferrous metal. I never empirically proved it but I've taken that as a sign that the windings are plated. The variations occur as the diameter of the winding wire changes. 
    As Jurgen suggests, nothing can really be done with those strings. I don't think it's cost effective if several notes are shot as has been my experience, 1/2 or more, and if you were to just replace those they would then be much more brilliant than the one's you decide to keep. 
    There is a growing class of these starter instruments whose repairs are far beyond their value partially because much newer pianos with higher quality materials are being sold used for such low prices. I see 10-15 year old pianos being sold for less than the cost of replacing a set of bass strings all the time. These older instruments weren't so great to begin with and are past their life span.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 7.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 21:07
    Steven - I know what you're talking about & I didn't inspect thoroughly enough to know for sure, but these 2 were dark 100% of the length, including under the dampers. I tried "polishing" a little with a rag to see if it had any effect. It didn't, but I didn't try that hard so the verdict is still out. Thanks!

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2019 10:46
    Meant to respond to Bill. Yes: TIA = Thanks In Advance.

    Sorry about that; my young students train me as much as I train them & I forget how old I am. Haha! ;-)

    Thanks! :-)

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2019 11:57
    Thought it might. At my age TIA has a totally different meaning = Trans Ischemic Attack. AKA stroke. ������

    "PTG - Expand your horizon - Share the vision:
    Providing Quality Service for the World's Pianos

    Good, Better, Best. Never let it rest, 'til the good is better and the better is best."

    To schedule an appointment online click here http://bit.ly/2ErRaav

    George W.R.(Bill) Davis, RPT, SERVP
    The Piano Place GA
    2315 Rocky Mountain Rd NE
    Marietta GA 30066
    (770) 778-6881

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 10.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 18:54
    You could try and boil them. Remove from the piano. Then grab the coil end with pliers and whip it around in the air for a few minutes. Then replace in the piano. That will restore a little life in them. 

    I'm not making this up. One guy in my chapter has done this on multiple occasions with varying success.

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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  • 11.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Posted 03-18-2019 19:50
    These strings would have been mass-produced, i.e. a string maker would have made, say, 500 strings #1, then 500 strings #2, and so on. They would have been bundled all together. So, if a batch of string #X was made of different or chemically contaminated ​​​copper winding, or if a batch of completed #Y's were contaminated in some way, they become "odd men out" in lots of pianos. If the two strings have copper winding of the dame original diameter copper, and the neighbors not, then there may have been a large roll of irregular or contaminated copper in the string factory. Corrosion will prevent free movement of the coils on the vibrating string, thus dull sound.​

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 12.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 21:25
    Hi Ed! That makes sense. These strings have the same size winding as their neighbors, but are obviously different in quality. Perhaps they even ran out of copper! Haha! Thanks for the info!

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 21:04
    Benjamin - I did think a joke was coming after that first sentence! I suppose if we have nothing to lose we may as well. For the moment, we're leaving them alone, but I appreciate everyone's input because I'll be returning to this piano eventually & would like to have as many options as possible. Thanks!

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Member
    Posted 03-18-2019 23:33
    If it was dark under the hammer and/or damper felt I would vote they are iron wound I replaced all the bass strings on a Chas M Stieff semi concert grand that had all iron wrapping and mostly tubby, dull strings. no amount of twisting, tying knots, forcefully striking the keys, applying hot sauce did anything . New bass strings from Arledge gave the piano life. I would just get two new bass strings made and be done with it.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 15.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2019 23:52
    Hi Maggie, 50 years ago when I was learning the trade we were told to remove them from the hitch pin and strike them with a wooden stick while holding it suspended from the tuning pin.  I tried it on a few but decided the work wasn't worth the effort if the process produced no results.  I saw the same tendency towards a waste of time on twisting them.  ON top of all this you chance breaking the string when it's brought back up to pitch.  They're old and sometimes brittle. 

    If I'm going to deal with a defective non-singing string, I'm going to replace it but then I don't work on pianos that are 2 and 3 hours from here anymore.  Your results may vary.

    Lower priced pianos most likely have every cost cutting option in them.  A spool of plated iron wire or lower cost alloy is entirely possible.  It was ordered for the production run and when it was used up they found another spool from somewhere and made the next batch of strings.  Who ever could supply the spool at the lowest cost got the order.



    Lar


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    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
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  • 16.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2019 20:11
    A variation on this theme is to immerse the strings in a mixture of Muriatic Acid and water.  The mix I use for cleaning brass parts is about a shot glass of acid to a gallon of water.  The strings will change color in the mix.  Once they are clean rinse them thoroughly in clean water and use a blow drier to dry them before re-installing.  Given that you only have two strings this is a cost effective measure.  An entire set will be cost prohibitive as the return on investment is consumed by the labor. Muriatic Acid is sold for pool cleaning and brick masons use it to clean up excess mortar so it is readily available.  You can substitute drain cleaner that has a high acid content.  Wearing rubber gloves is a good idea unless you want dish pan hands and the fumes can rust metal in the area so outside is a good option as well.  It does work!

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    Norman Cantrell
    Piano Clinic
    Lawton OK
    580-355-5003
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  • 17.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2019 22:24
    IF you're going to try this...ammonia should work also:

    Get a length of 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" PVC drain pipe and glue a cap on one end. Fill the tube with your libation and put the strings in for 15 - 30 min. Dump it out into a container (reusable), work the strings (half knot...you know), then repeat.  Then rinse real good, dry, etc. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2019 10:44
    Thanks! I'm not sure which is more scary: ammonia or water! Haha!

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: discolored, plunky strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2019 11:01
    Just now saw this post. Wow. Everyone has been very helpful. Thanks!

    I'm wondering: IF these windings are copper, of which I am currently skeptical, is it just a matter of cleaning them? Because vinegar + salt does an amazing job of cleaning copper. My aunt used to clean the copper bottom of her pots & pans that way. Fast & easy. Salt might be a bad idea around steel, though. I don't know. Any thoughts on that?

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------