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K25 muting

  • 1.  K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 08:07
    I have inventory of 32 fairly new Steinway model K52 uprights. It is getting tiring tryin to mute the
    first treble section by conventional means. There is very little clearance between the top of the damper
    and the hammer to insert mutes. The hammers will not clear the narrowest of temperament strips.
    I typically don't strip this area, but the rubber mutes do not stay in place and threading something 
    through the handle loops creates more work moving them and slows me down, besides the fact
    that they don't really do an adequate job of silencing the strings. 

    Has anyone landed on a good solution for this? As a rule these pianos get tuned 3 - 4 times a year
    to that's upwards of 100 piano tunings that frustrate me. 

    Any input would be appreciated. 

    Thanks!

    Dave

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    Dave Conte

    University of Tennessee
    Knoxville TN
    817-307-5656
    Owner: Rocky Top Piano
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  • 2.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 08:28
    Dave,

    I generally use a Papps mute these days up in that region, and all the way to the top.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: K25 muting

    Posted 09-22-2021 08:39
    I have the long handled mutes from P-tek and cut the wedges to be about 8 mm wide. This gives clearance between the damper felt and hammer. With the long handles, inserting between the shanks, above the hammer rest rail, eliminates mutes being knocked to the bottom.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 09:32

    Thanks, Peter. 

    Yes, I should have included in my post that I tried the Papps mute, but found it
    was no more secure than other stick mutes and did not damp very well. But I have
    one and am open to suggestions about how to better use it. Can you tell me if
    you have a similar problem and if not, what your trick is?

    I was thinking of cutting down a temp strip to stitch in there. But I was also hoping
    someone else had come up with a more fool-proof (Dave-proof?) method. 


    --



    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 09:03
    I usually use a thin (1/4" width) strip of spring rail felt to mute that section, though on rare occasions a  piano won't even have enough clearance for that. In that case I pull the dampers back with one hand and push the strip farther down the strings below the dampers. I push it down with my little 6" ruler but something the size of a credit card would work even better. This second procedure is actually the method I was taught to use on all verticals. That was under the tutelage of Danny Boone at Baylor in 1987.

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    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 09:41
    Dave

    Have you tried going stripless? Use only rubber mutes in the treble section, not only in the upper middle section, but also the entire top treble. 

    I don't even own a temperament strip any more, and do the whole piano using mutes. I'm not trying to talk you out of using a strip, but in your case, starting at about C5, use two 2" long rubber mutes on handles. Put one in the right side on top of the damper, but you can also pull the damper out and put the mute behind the damper. Do the same thing for the left side.  Tune the middle string, pull out the right damper and move it to C#5. Tune the right string to the middle string on C5. Then move the left rubber mute to C#5, and tune the left string of C5. repeat. 

    When I get to the top section, I use a split rubber mute. Some people like the pabst mute, and they are fine. My prefference is a split rubber mute. Again, if there isn't enough room between the hammer and the damper, you can put the mute behind the damper. 

    After a while you'll realize that using two rubber mutes for the whole treble section save you time, and in my opinion, results in a more stable piano. It will also hone your skills tuning unisons. I use a 4" rubbermute for the bass section.  On a grand I use two felt mutes, except for the high treble, where I use the 4" rubber mute.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: K25 muting

    Posted 09-22-2021 13:01
    For the last few months, maybe a year or so, I've been tuning the upper section with one mute. I sliced a rubber mute in half so it's 5 mm wide & 7 cm long. Long, thin and attached to a wire handle. I mute off the two right strings and tune the left one, then put the mute to the right so I'm tuning the left & middle string, then put the mute in the next note up and tune all three strings together. For the most part, this has worked very well for me, especially in situations like you describe. I think the same thing could be done with the Papp's mute also. 

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    PianoMeter, TuneLab & OnlyPure user
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 13:05

    I've been doing this for years!  I do use a temperament strip for just the middle of the piano. Rubber mutes as you do all the way up and down. I don't see the logic of muting up everything like a tuning exam.

    It's faster and I think, more stable.

    Paul




    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: K25 muting

    Posted 09-22-2021 20:02
    The following idea from Mitch Kiel,  RPT, appeared in the April 2003 Piano Technicians Journal.  I use mutes that are 1/4 inch thick, and put an offset bend in the handle to make things easier to manipulate.  I've not used these in a K-52, as far as I can remember, but they are my go-to choice in tuning the treble of vertical pianos.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 20:43
    Thank you all for your input. 

    The crux of the problem with the K52 is that the hammer
    spacing is such that they barely strike the left string of 
    each unison. The harder you strike, the less it sounds
    so setting the strings is nearly impossible. 

    They were purchased new in about 2013 so they are still
    pretty new and I can't justify filing the hammers yet, but there
    is enough compacting from the strings that spacing more
    centered over the strings will cause tonal problems.
    This exists with pretty much all the 32 K52s in inventory, so 
    it would be a daunting task anyway. About half of them are
    in practice rooms and the others are in teaching studios.

    I just need some way to mute the outside strings in the mid 
    treble where the dampers are so close to the hammers so I can just
    tune the middle string of each unison like in the temperament. 

    In a perfect world, I could simply just start with the left string,
    but therein lies the problem. We are talking about a University
    and of course nothing is perfect. 

    Thanks!

    Dave





    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2021 21:08
    Dave.

    Here are two ideas that might help. They require some work on your part but it might worth a try.

    First, you will need to align the hammers to the strings. Sometimes there is enough room in the flange screw hole to move the flange and hammer over enough to make the hammer hit all three strings in gut middle. Don’t forget that upright hammers don’t have to favor the right side as they do on grands. If there is. It there is not enough room in the screw hole you’ll need to add travel paper to the right side of the flange to move the hammer over. Unfortunately you’ll have to do that on the whole section.

    The other option, and I’ve done this only twice before, is to lower the damper heads. There is a little leeway to let you do that without effecting the dampening. It’s not ideal, but worth a shot.

    Wim.

    Sent from my iPhone


    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 00:39
    I haven't tried this on a K52 but on bird cages I would tip the action back and insert the strip under the hammers, in this case it would be under the dampers. Not sure if there's enough clearance but if there is one could tune the middle strings, then pull every other stitch, etc. or tune the middle strings and tune the outer ones with a rubber mute. The long handled P-Tek mutes Jon mentions are the best I've found for problematic set ups.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 13:59
    I think your Papp’s mute is a way to go (though I like Wim’s Pabst mute, which I never remove, only in desperation, would I remove it, haha!)
    You can mute off the two outer strings if you enter from the side of the neighboring hammers and pull back the damper to insert. It does a fine job of muting the shorter treble strings.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC


    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 08:49
    I also only strip mute the center section, I do the top section with a Papps mute and the bass section with a rubber mute.
    You can make the Papps mute work on those Steinway models. Play around with the placement, sometimes you have to angle the Papps mute below the dampers.
    The Papps mute is an excellent tool, there a lot of situations where you can mute strings that would be difficult with other techniques. For example small spinets or birdcage pianos.
    David Weiss

    Sent from my iPad


    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 09:26
    Likewise, my use of the Papps mute is routine in verticals (I used to strip mute all the way but quit that about 20 or so years ago).

    First of all I thinned down the tips of the device for greater ease of entry without moving the wire much.

    Secondly, I generally use it from above the hammers rather than through the shanks (repeat generally). I mute the middle and right string by inserting just the left leg of the mute as close to the damper as possible. I keep it at just the angle necessary to do the job, often propping it off of upper hammers to keep it in place (true, it's not a FULL muting of the strings but I have learned to ignore that little "tink" sound as I tune the left string). Occaisionally I need to sneak it down the side of the damper slightly when hammer clearance is tight. 

    Then, finally I mute the right string as designed between that and the next unison wire. 

    Only if absolutely necessary will I go through the shanks and damper wires. That requires more and greater hand and arm movements that I tend to avoid by going from the top. Usually by the time I am at the top half octave there is not enough room above to continue as described at which point I may simply switch to the opposite angle, or go through the shanks. 

    Thinning the tips of the device is important I find, and easily enables this process. You do have to train yourself to not care about the "less than perfect" muting and just zero in on what you're listening to. 

    This method also lends itself to quickly testing all three strings on unisons that are already quite close and finding the "one only" that needs to be moved, or the one that is right on and need only to tune the other two. Simply touching it to the string(s) is quick, rather than needing to "insert" a mute.

    Very few pianos that this does not work on. I just did a 10 year old K-52 this week and it presented no problems. 

    HTH

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 09:47

    Thanks for all the replies. 

    I just noticed the heading of this topic is K25, which of course should be K52. 
    Pardon me for being Lysdexic. 

    Just to clarify the point of this discussion was originally that the left string unison
    is almost missed by the hammers and on a hard blow is inaudible, so I need a 
    way to tune only the middle string while muting the outside unisons for the mid treble 
    section. Knowing how to mute the left string is quite academic for me. There are
    32 of these pianos which are less than a decade old. Filing the hammers at this
    time is not justifiable; however the hammers have enough compaction from the
    strings that spacing them properly will create tonal problems. I have 93 other 
    pianos which need tuning and service 3x per year so I can't spend extra time
    unnecessarily on these K52s. 

    I just need to find a way to only hear the middle string of the notes in this section
    so I won't have to be frustrated and spend so much time with just the mid treble notes
    and still get stable tunings here. 

    Thanks for any additional input. 

    Dave
    --



    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 15:30
    Hi Dave,
    Your last email re-stated that your goal is to be able to isolate the middle string. The easiest way to do that is with two Papps mutes One of them enters from the right of the string you are tuning , and the other enters from the left of the string you are tuning One blocks the right string and the other blocks the left string. The middle string is now isolated
    David
    David Weiss Piano Service
    434-823-9733 davidweisspiano@gmail.com www,davidweisspiano.com

    Sent from my iPhone


    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 11:32

    I have always used a Papps mute in practically all uprights in the treble section where it is awkward to insert a strip.  On many pianos, there isn't enough space between the hammers and dampers, so I carefully insert it at a large angle so it goes into the strings below the dampers.  It takes a fair bit of practice to be able to find the strings since you can't see them.  Sometimes the Papps mute doesn't fit in one direction so you have to try the other direction, that is, towards the bass instead of towards the treble.  Sometimes you have to insert it two hammers away from the note you're working on instead of the adjacent one.  Of course it's a matter of personal preference and using a technique you already know, but this has worked for me.  Sometimes I try using rubber mutes instead when the Papps mute doesn't work easily, but I almost always go back to the Papps.  In the 15 years I've been tuning, I've had to use rubber mutes on only a handful of pianos.  Of course, it is very easy to use in the notes without dampers.

     

    When the Papps mute is damping strings below the dampers, it works very well as it is near the middle of the string.




    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: K25 muting

    Posted 09-23-2021 12:25
    When monsieur Papps invented this in the 1880's they were designed primarily for birdcage uprights , I remember these pianos with hmmm little affection starting out in piano work in the early 1980's .
    http://mshepherdpiano.com/antique-piano-tools/mutes/
    www.snowpianos.com

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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: K25 muting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2021 15:53
    So when I did strip mute up there I used a strip of thick name board felt (or medium will do). Roll up the end enough to hold itself in between the first two unisons then quickly insert above the dampers. Then a piece of sheet metal wide enough to push them down behind and below the dampers and you're ready to roll.  (I used an old universal bass string gauge thing as my pusher...not ideal but it worked). Since you have so many of the same why not make a sheet that precisely fits in there and do it all in one whack!

    Then of course you keep a length hanging out somewhere so you can pull it out note by note. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message