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Cast Counterbearing Treatment

  • 1.  Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 09:37
    I have a 1925 Gerhard Heintzman with the cast-into-the-plate equivalent of half-round counterbearings with a radius in the range of about 3/8".


    These are found in all sections of the scale.  Original arrangement was cloth glued in place over top, and over time pretty much every string wore through the cloth.  I'm looking for a way to reduce future friction problems as I get ready to restring.

    The invasive solution would be to grind out the existing structures and replace them with acetal copolymer.  I don't think I'm ready to try that, though I had a good experience using the copolymer on my last restring.  Is there something lubricious that I could use under the cloth, or in place of the cloth, that might reduce friction issues a few years down the road?

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 11:59
    One option is, that you don't have to remove the whole thing, just bring it to a much smaller radius...that wide contact area is a killer for rendering. 

    Another option is to use  a self adhesive slick strip under the felt. As you mention, the wire will grind through the felt quickly, if not immediately, and bear on the UMHW material. I've done this on plate configurations with crazy high termination angles, like 45 deg, which the could not be ground and corrected. It works pretty well.

    Just make sure you have some friction there, because the UMHW and co-polymers can be a too low friction, if not configured well...which is a different kind of pain to tune. Keep the termination angle elevated, as in 20-25deg, or keep the contact surface wide (1" or more), or add some dense felt after the UMHW...some way to make sure there is some friction. Some of my co-polymer terminations are too low friction. Friction in the "just right" is such a pleasure to tune.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 11:59
    slick strip

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 12:39
    Thanks, Jim, for your quick reply.  I may not be able to achieve either a high enough termination angle or a wide enough contact area, so the high density felt looks like the way to go.  Is there a benefit of having the UHMW strip under the felt, or is the felt alone sufficient?

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 13:35
    No...let me clarify.  Slick strip under thin bushing cloth at the termination. Then, not at the counterbearing termination, but behind it on the tuning pin side, thick dense felt that is somewhat compressed (ie higher relative to the string than you would normally do, to create some extra friction). Only 3/4" or so width to the dense felt. So to be clear, no dense felt on the cast iron termination, but behind it. 

    The UMHW under the bushing cloth with be the primary low friction contact. 

    Is that an open face pinblock?


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 14:14
    I wonder if molybdenum Disulfide plastic strips would work. Its an extremely slick plastic. They use in industrial applications.



    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 15:44
    Thanks Jim.  That makes sense. 

    Jeffrey, thanks for your suggestion.


    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-24-2020 16:34
    What is the termination angle. Take it like this, cutting the gauge out of a manila folder.  Note this angle is less than 20 deg shown on the card...(I just grabbed it quick). Make a bunch of angle gauges with an included angle of 12, 15, 20, 25, 30 degs...very instructive...


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-25-2020 14:25
    Looks like I'm in good shape.  The termination angle is awfully close to 25 degrees.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-25-2020 17:19
    you should be okay with just the UMHW under the bushing cloth on the counterbearing. I wouldn't add the dense felt between counterbearing and tuning pins

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-25-2020 18:47
    LOL.. didn't see the post about the UHMW plastic above.  That is Molybdenum disulfide plastic.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-25-2020 19:38
    oh...too bad. I'd really like to find a similar material, in terms of density. but with a less slippery surface...not sure that means lower or higher coefficient of friction...I think higher, meaning more friction than co-polymer.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-26-2020 00:32
    I ended up glueing some high density plastic sheeting, about half an inch wide, along the top of the counter bearing surface. I heated it first, and shaped it somewhat to the contour of the surface.  Over that I installed my cloth, glued only along the edges where there is no string contact. The plastic sheeting was cut from what we know up here as a krazy karpet snow slider. Feel free to roll your eyes :-).

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-26-2020 08:20
    hey...whatever works.  Did you have to tackle some poor kid to remove their snow slider from them?  I can just see it...kamikaze piano technicians stalking the kiddy sliding hills wresting sleds from the poor tykes.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 02-26-2020 09:40
    I first purchased a couple of these to use for lining the rim of a grand piano when lifting and installing plates.  I've used a piece as well for a mat when using a cutting wheel.  Handy stuff to have on hand.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Cast Counterbearing Treatment

    Posted 10-29-2020 13:05
    Here's an update.

    The photos show the understring cloth covering the snow slider material.  The jury is still out as to whether I have too little friction in the system.  I've tuned a handful of times since thus far, and the rendering is compliant, but I wish the purity of the unisons lasted a little longer.  We'll see how things settle down in the medium term.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------