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Can't get action out

  • 1.  Can't get action out

    Member
    Posted 12-05-2019 18:54
    I went to a friend and coworkers house today to tune a 1989 Weber baby grand piano that he just got from one of his neighbors. The first thing I noticed is that the regulation is completely and horribly bad. Many keys were blocking. Adjust the letoff a bit helped but now they bobble like mad. I wanted to pull the action out and do a complete regulation on the bench but guess what?  I can't get the action out!  The first thing was that in the center section some of the drop screws were backed out so far they were digging into the pinblock as I was pulling it out. With the help of my friend we were able to push the stack down enough to slide it partially out. Then I noticed that the hammers in the entire bass section were to high to get the action out. They are actually rubbing very tightly  against the pinblock, and a couple were actually starting to twist a little. Any more force and we'd have had some broken hammers.
    In 15 years of piano work I have never come across this. I don't even know how they got the action INTO the piano! It looks like someone has done work on this action as the bushings and papers look relatively new, and the stack under the balance rail looks rather excessive to me.  I have no way of getting any history on this piano though.
    Any suggestion how I can get the action out?

    ------------------------------
    John Giglio
    Watauga TX
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-05-2019 19:18
    Do a search on PTG for Expanded Brackets.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 19:58
    Hi John,

    Here is a direct link to 161 posts regarding "expanding action brackets": https://my.ptg.org/search?executeSearch=true&SearchTerm=%22expanding+action+brackets%22&rf=%5EObjectType%3AEgroupMessage%5E

    You will see "Weber" in the 4th post.

    The photos from that post are here: https://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/expanding-action-brackets-attachm?CommunityKey=06a50b7b-c49f-4c2a-b32b-ef78b4ed51cc&tab=librarydocuments&MessageKey=a19d2320-483f-43ed-8959-c0d8890fdc33

    Paul.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Brown, RPT
    Past President
    Piano Technicians Guild
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Email: ipp@ptg.org
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 20:06
    Hi John:
    I saw that you posted this on another discussion group. Basically, the metal brackets that hold the action stack together have changed dimension over time. The action fit fine at the factory, and now the action brackets have expanded so it no longer fits. If you examine the brackets, you'll likely find cracks. To remove the action you'll need to break the brackets or saw them out and replace them. Young Chang has manufactured the piano for Weber, and shared the same fate as other YC pianos with the same bracket problem. There have been numerous posts in this regard, as has been mentioned. I've done this job many times, and no need to rehash the same information which is in the archives.
    Good luck.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




  • 5.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 20:33
    By the way John; I looked your web site. Did you know you are no longer an Associate Member!

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 22:15
    Probably dreaded expanding brackets. See if adjusting the glides can get you a fraction of an inch.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Can't get action out

    Member
    Posted 12-05-2019 22:28
    There has been much written about this subject however if someone has tried regulating or made adjustments the fix gets very complicated. You will probably have to destroy the brackets with the action in the cavity in order to get it out. The three that I have fixed all had various degrees of action bracket failure. The first was a Wurlitzer , second was a Young Chang that required me to break the brackets to free the action. The last was a Weber that had almost invisible cracks in the bracket but someone tried to regulate it . At least two dozen hammers were blocking the strings . You can get new brackets from Young Chang for about $50 - you need to give them the model and serial number. The time to put in the new brackets and regulate etc is not under warranty so the customer needs to pay .

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 00:46
    Hi John,

    Pal Sound handles Young Chang's domestic issues like this now. You can get action brackets from them for $30. 

    Email Vincent at Pal Sound
    service@palsound.com

    I've done this on 2 Webers in the last year. 

    I was able to cheat mine out by reducing the glides. Hammers still scraped against pinblock pretty good but no damage in the end. 

    The brackets just about fell fell apart in my hands once I had them out so you can prob break them easily as others have mentioned. 

    Best,
    Daniel

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Achten
    Chattanooga TN
    423-760-2458
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 00:48
    Oops here is the correct email:

    service@pal-sound.com

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Achten
    Chattanooga TN
    423-760-2458
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 05:39
    I just finished a Weber action this week with new brackets. The man to get new brackets is:
    Vincent Choi and his email is:
    service@pal-sound.com

    Be prepared for lots of action work! These brackets work but they are a little different from the original, and a little, is a lot.

    Rob

    Robert Edwardsen
    Registered Piano Technician
    PO Box 334
    Pittsford NY 14534
    585-586-1360
    edwardsenpianoservice.com
    eedward2@rochester.rr.com




  • 11.  RE: Can't get action out

    Member
    Posted 12-06-2019 16:41
    This is what is so awesome about the PTG. Thank you for all the advice, I had no idea this was an issue with the Weber/Young Chang painos. I guess we really can learn something new every day.  Susan Kline, I did adjust the glides all the way in, that helped to get the center section under, no more adjustment left though for the hammers.

    ------------------------------
    John Giglio
    Watauga TX
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 18:52
    Sounds like that piano is really far advanced in the process. The ones I've met have been only partway along, so the action could still be removed, though with some difficulty.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-06-2019 20:25
    When the brackets are this far gone, you can probably just grab and twist with a pair of pliers, and the bracket will crumble.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2019 21:12
    Here are some photos I took of the old brackets and one new bracket this year. 

    Notice the old silver bracket in one photo is larger than the new gold bracket. It expanded! Crazy. 

    Also notice the small cracks and some parts were broken completely through. 

    With the new brackets in I was able to regulate it and it plays great. Just have to set action spread first!!

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Achten
    Chattanooga TN
    423-760-2458
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2019 00:56
      |   view attached
    The last one I did had a couple of additional glitches to contend with. The bracket screws along the front/middle had bent under the pressure and had to be replaced, those screws go in at an angle on the middle brackets and the angle of the new brackets was different than the originals so the pilot holes in the keyframe needed to be plugged and redrilled which was kind of a seat-of-your-pants process.
    Btw, there are two different spread distances depending on the year, at least for the YC's. Not sure how this relates to Webers.
    From Young Chang:

        4. Action spread should be set to112.5mm. 
    (Models newer than 1992=113.5. Let-off buttons are at 90-degree angle to hammer rail) Measure spread from center pin of wippen flange to center pin of                        hammer flange.  
     

    Actually I guess I'll attach the whole sheet. Note that this is dated 2003 and the warrantee information is out of date.




    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 16.  RE: Can't get action out

    Member
    Posted 08-03-2020 13:13
    I realized I never updated this. After receiving new action brackets and breaking th old ones and bringing the action to my bench, I started to install the new brackets. I found that the front screws would not start. I pulled the new brackets back out and found the front holes of the center 2 brackets lined up with the screws in the key bed! I had to reposition these screws, fill the holes and countersinks of the the old holes. and drill new screw holes. Installation went well after that but I found someone must have tried some regulation previously because the hammer line was awful ! You can see in the pic (I have already adjusted the bass section).  The client was very happy with the result, as was I.

    ------------------------------
    John Giglio
    Watauga TX
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-03-2020 16:55
    It's pretty typical for grands with this problem to have been regulated per the expanded brackets at least once, if for no other reason than as a stop-gap. In the first assessment, if you suspect the brackets, it's worth looking at the capstans, let off and drop screws to see if they're turned further than would be expected or if they are uneven, so you can take that into account in your estimate. I usually expect that there will be extra work in regulation on these. At least if you know they are way off you can go ahead and turn them back down all at once to ballpark them before doing fine adjustment.
    Haven't run into the problem of the bracket screws running into keybed screws. Murphy's Law I guess. Fits in well with this whole bracket fiasco.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 14:35
    Your Weber/Young Chang action brackets Grew (as in they got taller). A problem from the 1980's and 90's. Call Young Chang to find out what to do. I have done replacing of brackets 5 or 6 times. 4-5 hours. Depending. It always takes longer! But it's still way cheaper than buying another used piano. To get action out, you could grind down bottom of pinblock (worst idea!), or lower drop screws if you can, or unscrew front bracket screws and tilt action brackets. Or...?? Whatever you do, you will have to do a top to bottom regulation, because all the tuners before you tried to fix it with re-regulating...Until you got there and started scratching your head...Good luck!
    Bill Klein (650) 678-9680





  • 19.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-10-2019 12:34
    Use a stout screwdriver and hammer to break the already-fragile, chemically-compromised action brackets. They should crumble. Pull the action and install new brackets (from PAL Sound).

    You will need longer screws for the new brackets, as they have thicker feet.

    ------------------------------
    Greg Graham, RPT
    Brodheadsville, PA
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-10-2019 13:42
    Bring appropriate drill bits. Be prepared to make new screw holes. You sometimes need to, other times not. Trying to consult my very vague memory, I think I had to do new holes for the front screws of the two middle brackets once, other times the replacements were compatible with what was there.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Can't get action out

    Member
    Posted 12-10-2019 15:16
    Susan is exactly right - you may need to drill some holes and maybe even need to chisel off some wood at the fronts of the end bracket keyframe. The last Young Chang I did the brackets where an exact match except I think I had to purchase longer screws (screws are not included with the brackets. I was able to remove the two middle brackets and secure them with new screws without taking the top action off. Same thing with the end brackets. You still need to check the action spread. Regulation wise I was lucky that someone only played with letoff. I was able to adjust letoff in the piano so the job went fairly quickly .

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-11-2019 05:51
    Okay, you made me dig out my action - action videos. Check out the second video when I completely break through the bracket and the hammer rail pops downward - pretty cool. Oops - looks like the first video listed is actually the second video - you'll figure it out....

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-11-2019 08:30
    To insure the top action rails stay in the same location, replace the end brackets first.
    <edit> While leaving the center brackets still attached. Once the end brackets are in place, relace the center brackets.
    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------


  • 24.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-11-2019 08:48
    Whippen rail screw holes might need to be ( a ground them out with a dremel tool ) expanded in order to line up with the new brackets’ threaded screw holes.

    Rob

    Robert Edwardsen
    Registered Piano Technician
    PO Box 334
    Pittsford NY 14534
    585-586-1360
    edwardsenpianoservice.com
    eedward2@rochester.rr.com




  • 25.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-11-2019 09:08
    OK, so here's the deal: This is not a mind-free automatic screw things in, take the check and run operation.
    This is a good lesson in all the alignments that must be optimal for the action to function.
    The key frame must be bedded.  Observe alignment of hammers to strings, knuckles to rep levers, jack to knuckle core, wippens to capstans, hammer tails to back checks.  
    Don't assume things were done that carefully in the factory, and who knows what was changed to cope with the expanding brackets?
    If 12 hammers are perfectly aligned to the strings and 76 are off to the treble side, is there something you can do to shift the rail to bring 76 in alignment? Then what happens to the rep lever/knuckle alignment? Etc.!
    If you don't know how to think of all these at once, this job will teach you!
    Very satisfying to optimize basic action functions.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-11-2019 09:36
    Yes, a fun mechanical aptitude test that you get paid for.   

    Robert Edwardsen
    Registered Piano Technician
    PO Box 334
    Pittsford NY 14534
    585-586-1360






  • 27.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 15:20
    Has anyone encountered this on an old (early 1900's?) Kranich & Bach?   Couldn't pull the action on one the other day.   Was baffled, as I'd never encountered this before.

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-12-2019 16:09
    Did you try taking out the too long screws holding the lyre? Really Timothy, more information would have helped.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 18:37

    Sorry.  Symptoms seemed so close to "growing action brackets" that I neglected to provide more info:  Action actually pulled out about half-way, at which point the center of the action (i.e. -- the HAMMER FLANGE SCREWS!) came into contact with the pinblock.   As we attempted to force it further, the screws out toward the perimeter also came into contact with the pinblock.   I've never seen hammer flange screws contacting the pinblock before.   I would think the drop screws would contact first, but then I'm not sure if I've encountered a Kranich and Bach grand before -- s/n 35970    (1900-1910???).  

    Dampers were way out of adjustment, but due to time constraints and the action issue we decided to tackle the issues after the new year. 



    ------------------------------
    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 18:55
    Has the piano been "turned on the pedal lyre?" This could damage the keybed.
    Or is the pinblock delaminating? Did someone drive the pins without supporting the pinblock?
    Or is some bit of trash under the keyframe?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 20:07
    Hello Ed.  Could you clarify your phrase "turned on the pedal lyre"?  I am unfamiliar with this language.   Are you referring to the possibility that some novice failed to remove the pedal lyre prior to removing the legs?    If so, this may be a possibility; as the piano was moved not long ago.   Plus, with the dampers all hanging, this could explain that condition as well.   No pinblock delamination noted.  Did not "feel" like trash under the keyframe (I've encountered this before).  Pins did not appear to have been driven.  I will investigate the possibility of a damaged keybed when I return to the piano --- but --- should that be the case  --- any suggestion for a possible remedy in that case?

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-13-2019 11:44
    "Turning on the pedal lyre" is the potentially destructive method of tilting the piano by removing the bass leg, then using the pedal lyre as a prop to rotate the piano onto its side. The lyre and keybed aren't designed for this stress, and may eventually be damaged. Some years ago I was attempting to regulate a piano for a dealer who used this method, and I found that the keybed had been split and pushed up by the pedal lyre.
    Since the K & B was recently moved and has damper problems, I would examine the keybed and pedal lyre, also looking for the possibility that wrong screws or bolts were used to attach the pedal lyre or front legs.
    Damaged keybed or pedal lyre will need repair.
    Wrongly placed leg and lyre screws/bolts need to go in the right places, carefully supporting the piano when bolts are removed!

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Can't get action out

    Member
    Posted 12-13-2019 09:02
    I do not think action bracket cracking/crumbling/expanding was just limited to the Young Chang and other pianos made by them. There is a range of serial numbers that where part of the replacement program but some brackets are outside the range. I have a customer with a J&C Fischer from the early 1900's that has brackets with cracks in several places the metal used looks like pot metal. I bought replacements I believe from Schaff that matched exactly . Action brackets where not always made of metal. i worked on an old Chickering & Sons quarter grand that had laminated wood brackets that where stable as anything. I would imagine that a good 3-D printer could be used to produce some good brackets but a skilled woodworker also could as long as the master brackets are not a pile of crumbs.

    Regarding getting an action out - too long lyre screws , trapwork bracket screws and leg screws are the culprit. Only a small amount of thread will snag a key frame of course a long thread can be into the frame. Movers can and do mix up screws and bolts and put the typically longer tail leg bolts into front legs. Ask me how I know...

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-13-2019 14:37
    Before WNG introduced you heir action duplication service I use to make brackets from 10mm thick aluminum sheet(local scrap yards always have plenty) on bend saw. Only trick - use plenty of lubrication.

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 35.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-13-2019 09:46
    Timothy,
    You might have a Kranich & Bach that has their nightmare action, it has springs fastened to the keybed that hold down
    the front rail. As you pull the action out you can only go so far until the balance rail hits the springs, then you have to lift up on the keyframe to get over the springs. The keyframe is very flimsy and will flex enough to get over the springs.
    Going back in is not a problem.
    Good luck,
    John





  • 36.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 16:22
    The only way to pull an old Koranic & Bach action is on two: Ready everyone? Let's do it on two. Okay, ONE, TWO - PULL!

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-12-2019 17:04
    Run a sounding board steel between the keyframe and the key bed and see if you encounter any screws popping through the keybed. 

    Rob

    Robert Edwardsen
    Registered Piano Technician
    PO Box 334
    Pittsford NY 14534
    585-586-1360






  • 38.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 17:56
    Raise glide bolts

    Alexander Brusilovsky





  • 39.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-13-2019 18:28
    Most every Kranich &Bach grand I've worked on, the key frame is secured by one (or is it three?) screw(s) going up through the keybed.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 17:55
    Not original too long leg screws?

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 41.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-12-2019 18:15
    Growing action brackets

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 42.  RE: Can't get action out

    Posted 12-14-2019 14:38

    Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!  I'll have plenty of "ammunition" when I return to the piano after the new year.  I'll be surprised if it's a lyre bolt, as I believe this model used a wedging arrangement similar to the old Steinway method; but I will check to be sure.  Since the dampers were all hanging, I have a suspicion that the keybed may have been damaged; but I'm hoping that is not the case.  At any rate, I'll try to remember to post the results once I've determined the issue.  

    And again --- many thanks for all the help!



    ------------------------------
    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-15-2019 18:56
    This has already been suggested by Ed, but the first thing I thought of was the leg bolts.  I once had this exact same problem, terrible regulation, couldn't pull action, etc., and it turned out that the original leg bolts had been lost and replaced with too long ones that were pushing the action into crazy positions.  Not a difficult fix, but it took me a while to diagnose it!

    ------------------------------
    Laura Wright, RPT
    Ivory Keys Piano Service
    Durango CO
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Can't get action out

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-03-2020 20:34
    Hi Timothy.  Bear in mind the damper action is supported by pot metal brackets on some of these older grands.  Moving the piano by using the lyre as a pivot may have flexed the keybed, stressing these brackets causing them to break.  Uh, I don't think they make replacements for them.  When I was installing PianoDisc players the slot I cut for the solenoids lined up with the bracket screws.  Sometime I just let the skill saw blade cut right through the bracket.  Later during the installation I made a special supplimentry bracket to provide the eliminated support.  As for reconstructing the possibly broken brackets, ..... 3D printing comes to mind. 

    I'm curious as to what you find next year.  Please submit your findings if you get a chance.

    Lar


    ------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    503-310-6965
    Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.
    ------------------------------