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Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

  • 1.  Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-28-2019 14:20
    My Dear Belly-heads,

    Need manufacturer for some replacement fire hose 1-1/2" diameter.  One of my hoses just died. It didn't blow out an end, but the hose itself cracked and started leaking.  Any thoughts on something that holds up over time...manufacturer and model info would be helpful.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-28-2019 16:28

    Hi Jim. Try Amazon.

    NO! NOT THAT ONE!!!  Amazon Hose & Rubber Company https://www.amazonhose.com/products/fire-hose-nozzles-and-adapters/  

    I bought my hose from them some years ago. They've got just about every type of hose under the sun. The hose I use is referred to as "mill hose".



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-28-2019 16:31
    <NO! NOT THAT ONE!!! 

    a good chuckle was had by all

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2019 17:38
    Last batch I got came from a local fire station. They were required to replace this hose every so often even if it still looked good. I picked up two fifty-foot lengths. It was free (to a good home).

    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 5.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2019 17:44
    My dog loves his 20' of fire hose.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-28-2019 20:16
    I purchased mine 15 years ago and they are still like new.  Although, i have put holes in a couple because of my sloppy "Gravagne style" indexing method ( i definitely have to come up with something better).

    My thought on hoses is that they are cheap as compared to the length of service they will perform. So i prefer to have mine made at the local hose company. I think the fittings and leak proof seals are the important part.  Only a few dollars to have the hose replaced, but the fittings were pricey. 
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Knoxville, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-28-2019 20:47
    what is the "Gravagne" indexing style...marking the board with bridge pins sticking out of the rib notches, and locating the rib with a pin or .084 dowel ?



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-28-2019 22:26
    Yes. 
    I suppose what I have been doing lately is just trying to make the whole soundboard making process more efficient and eliminate potential errors. Retooling, rebuilding jigs, questioning techniques, etc.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Knoxville, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-29-2019 06:05
    Hey Jim - can you elaborate?

    "...marking the board with bridge pins sticking out of the rib notches, and locating the rib with a pin or .084 dowel?"

    Pins sticking out of rib notches? What is that for? Locating a rib with a pin or dowel? What are you doing there?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-29-2019 08:11
    Don't think I have a pic...

    -cut the notches where I want them
    -fit the sized ribs into their respective notches and leave them there
    -with a Foredome tool, drill .086 holes through rib ends (in the notch)
    -place a no.7 pin pointy side up in that drilled hole, so its projecting a little above the top surface of the rib
    -place the trimmed and fit board into the belly, over the ribs and pins you just installed
    -press the board down along the perimeter, so that the pins leave a locator mark on the underside of the board
    -with the board upside down, drill a .086 hole partially through the board with foredom tool at high speed, so it doesn't wander with the spruce's grain lines 
    -when gluing the ribs on, place the rib, which has .086 holes drilled through each end, over the locator holes you just drilled in the board's underside, and insert .084 dowels (Pianotek has them, they are medical applicators), through rib end into board's locator holes
    -snip off excess length of the dowel with side cutting pliers
    -apply hose to the rib to glue

    What do you do Terry?


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-29-2019 17:05
    Jim asked: "What do you do Terry?"

    Apparently just the opposite! I am typically working from a drawing, so I locate the ribs in their new array on the panel per my drawing, and then glue them onto the panel. After my soundboard is completely ribbed, I then install the board into the case and mark the rim for the new notches. I mark the new rib locations by marking the rim with a pencil for the approximate location and then apply an organic-based modeling compound (known in some circles as Play-Doh) to the rim, reinstall the soundboard and press the (painting-tape-covered) rib ends into the modeling compound. When I remove the soundboard the exact rib locations are clearly marked in the modeling compound. See pics. I find my method to be fast, accurate and easy.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-29-2019 18:28
    Interesting!  Is it possible for the Playdoh to exude any grease or glue challenging substance on the rim?

    That pinblock hs the appearance of a Bechstein...no?


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 09:33
    Jim I. asked: "Is it possible for the Playdoh to exude any grease or glue challenging substance on the rim?"

    I don't think so. It is water based. It dries very quickly and you can easily sand off any residue. However, those pictures are from the first time I tried it many years ago. I've had your same concern, so when I do it now I apply some painter's tape to the rim first, and then put my modeling compound on top of that. That way I don't have any concern about residue.

    That pinblock hs the appearance of a Bechstein...no?

    Good guess, but the rail-road tie sized belly rail should have steered your guess away from a Bechstein! It is an 1890s 6'4" Knabe. Rim, belly rail, bracing - simply massive. See pics:

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 10:05
    I have been trying to come up with a way to do what you are doing there...kinda neat. One just has to be ready to wrestle the Playdoh away from a recalcitrant 3 year old...and they can be fearsome critters...not to be trifled with.  Does the Playdoh ever pull away from the rim when you remove the panel? That would be a pain.

    I have been wanting to rib the panel with dimensioned, but un-tapered ribs. Then go back with my scalloping tool later and taper. I think your system might allow this.   Glue raw un-tapered ribs, taper, then do the Playdoh trick.





    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 10:38
    Jim I. wrote: "Does the Playdoh ever pull away from the rim when you remove the panel?"

    No, it never really has. I suspect that is because I have put masking tape on the rim and painter's tape on the ribs. The painter's tape has a waxy feel to it - I suspect the Play-Doh simply sticks better to the masking tape than the painter's tape. 

    "I have been wanting to rib the panel with dimensioned, but un-tapered ribs. Then go back with my scalloping tool later and taper. I think your system might allow this.   Glue raw un-tapered ribs, taper, then do the Playdoh trick."

    Yes, I suppose it would. But to what advantage? Seems to me tapering the ribs prior to gluing to panel is a good bit better - if only because then you can round corners, etc. much easier with rib in hand (or on router table) rather than rib glued to panel. What advantage would the untapered rib give you?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 11:30
    My system is slow going. With my system, first, after designing the rib layout, you make a notch cutting template out of 1/8" ply, cut the notches in the template, rout the notches using the template,


    insert the pins (which is actually slow going as you have to match the depth of drill to the pin lengths with reasonable precision), fit the ribs in the notches, make the pin impressions in the board, drill the board. Then the real pain, is making mini cauls to cover the locator dowels during glue-up to make sure you get good pressure at the ends and avoid puncturing the hose with the dowels.

    That's a lot of steps. I think just installing raw ribs would speed things up, as the scalloping process goes pretty quickly after glue-up. On the other hand, I love having the rib notching template, because I do all my design and layout on that template, including bridge location relative to ribs, can refer to it throughout the process, and have those templates to refer to when designing future boards. I find this record of what actually did previously is invaluable in thinking through subsequent designs.  I don't know...might be 6 of one half-dozen of another, gain efficiency, but lose very detailed access to previous as-built information.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 12:51
    Jim I. wrote: "Then the real pain, is making mini cauls to cover the locator dowels during glue-up to make sure you get good pressure at the ends and avoid puncturing the hose with the dowels."

    Are you making mini cauls to place over the tapered ends of the ribs so that the hose presses down adequately on the ends of the ribs during gluing to the panel? If so, I do that same thing. However, when I taper my ribs, I rough-cut the taper on the bandsaw and then finish the taper on the router (with a jig I have for making the proper taper). But I simply save the rough-cutouts from the rib tapers and use those to fit in between the rib ends and the hose. If you look at the picture I posted in my response to Chris - look at the treble-most press - if you look closely you can see that the rib is square right out to the end - that's the little cut-out that I placed in there. I find that all they need to be is close - they don't need to be perfect. Also trim the cut-outs to be a little bit more narrow than the rib so that I can clean up the glue squeeze-out easily.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2019 20:48
    I do the same thing, save the rough cuts off the rib ends to insert between the rib and the fire hose to insure clamping at the rib ends and protect the hose from pin punctures. 


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-29-2019 06:24
    What type of fittings are you using Chris?  "...the fittings were pricey."

    I post about this for the curious crowd. One can also make fittings from inexpensive components commonly available at hardware stores. I made mine with PVC ends and inexpensive brass valves. The system works quite well.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-29-2019 23:40
    When I had my hoses made originally, i of course went by their recommendations. So mine are cast iron fittings that are professionally sealed with metal bands instead of c-clamps. After thinking about it, they must be 20 years old now and they still work and look new, so i guess it was worth the extra cost i paid.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Knoxville, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2019 08:03
    Jim,

    have you checked woth with your local fire protection company (the kind that installs sprinklers, hose sets, recharged fire extinguishers, etc.)? They often have high quality leftovers that they just throw away (like we throw away things from the shop) that are too short for them to use but can be just right for us. They can often give you an idea of longevity and quality of the material if you find the right person to talk to. 

    Allan

    ------------------------------
    Allan Gilreath, RPT
    Registered Piano Technician & President
    Allan Gilreath & Associates, Inc
    Calhoun, GA
    706-602-7667
    allan@allangilreath.com - www.allangilreath.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 09:24
    Alan...this is where my question was coming from, as my original hose came from a firefighter's supply house. Its failure surprised me, coming from a source for firefighting professionals. I did buy a Goodyear hose from the same supply house which is Goodyear Spiroflex  Blue PVC mill hose. When I bought it...uhh...I guess 12 yrs ago or so, I thought it might not be as good as the woven mill hoses, but it seems to be okay 12 yrs out. Maybe actually 12 yrs is an acceptable working life, as that would see me through to 77.



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2019 10:53
    thumbnail image

    I think my fitting style is a lot like Terry's. These are the aluminum presses that I use.

    As far as marking rib to panel I just layout the ribs in the notches, make sure they are carefully centered if the notches are wider than the rib, tape them to the rim to make sure they don't move, lay the panel down and clamp it in place with a few clamps and then crawl underneath and scribe some pencil lines along the ribs in a few places, toward the ends of the ribs is best. The ones I can't reach as well I just scribe a line on one side.

    Then remove the panel, flip it over. Lay the ribs in place and complete the lines as needed. That also gives me a clear target for glue application. I then clamp the ends and drill a small hole for a #9 or #10 bridge pin through the end of the rib and into the panel which I use to secure the rib in place when inflating the pneumatic press and prevent the rib from skating.

    Sorry no pictures.

    I got the firehose from a surplus supply store selling fire fighting equipment.  These have lasted since I made them, can't recall when but awhile ago.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 11:02
    David - I love your presses. They must weigh about 1/10 of what my yellow pine presses weigh! So much easier to handle and store. How much flex do you get in the aluminum square tube on a three-foot span?

    I do the same thing you do with the bridge pins to hold the rib in place while in the press. The first time I tried to glue ribs on a panel I did not do that and sent one or two ribs flying across my shop! Disaster can spark innovation!

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2019 11:41
    thumbnail image

    My longest press is about 4 feet and the aluminum beam flexes sightly but not enough to matter.  I set my compressor to about 60 psi.  PIctured is the press in action. My shop is small so I set up a temporary structure for pressing and then take it down, very easy.  Note the plugs at the non-valve end of the hose.  Originally I just secured them with hose clamps until one shot out the end, fortunately I was not standing in the line of fire.  After that I epoxied them in. Were I to do this again I would have cut the top piece longer so it extends farther past the holding pin.  Didn't quite think that through carefully.  Better to have a bit more margin.  These are inflated BTW so you can get a sense of the flex.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Fire hose for pnuematic rib presses

    Posted 03-30-2019 12:43
    David L. wrote: "My longest press is about 4 feet and the aluminum beam flexes sightly but not enough to matter." 

    As long as it flexes less than the hose expands, you're good. What size are your aluminum rectangle pipes? Looks like maybe 2" X 4" X 1/8"? Are you using 2-inch hose or 1-1/2"?

    "Were I to do this again I would have cut the top piece longer so it extends farther past the holding pin."

    Ooooooo. I do see that. Just don't hover over it?

    Every time I glue ribs onto a panel I think that maybe I should bite the bullet and make a set of aluminum presses. Mine work great, so I haven't - but they sure are heavy and don't collapse much at all for storage. I only use three of them when doing a board. By the time I glue on the third rib, the first one has been clamped plenty long, so I just move that first press over to the next rib. Maybe I will do it. Every time I see a picture of yours I get motivated!

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------