CAUT

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message------

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Ed,

One of my mantras in my action center class is that the doggone cloth bushed action center is one of the more difficult parts of pianos to manufacture well.  Many manufacturers get it wrong, and it is made worse because it's rather easy to make errors that cause them to be working fine when the piano is shipped, but with regular use the centers begin to freeze up.

It's best to ream and repin, and investigate things closely as you work.  Most common cause in newish pianos like this is instability in the bushing cloth.  One cause I found (at a previous employer and a few others) is that the bushings can be twisted or scrunched up in the part when the pin is fitted and made functional, but with use and temperature / humidity cycling the bushing sort of unwinds in the part and binds on the pin.

After it has tightened, reaming, burnishing and new pins generally solve this problem permanently because the bushing has settled into a more stable state, and the burnishing especially helps finish the process.

It can also be thin glue soaked through the cloth, burrs from improper pin cutting snagging the cloth, or wood flanges twisting or bowing in and binding on the birds-eye.  etc. etc. etc. etc.

------------------------------
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America Corporation
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2019 18:33
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Ed,
I would add that with a ~10 year old Kohler-Campbell (Samick) 6' grand, damper lever centers and hammer centers have both seized -- around a 1/2 dozen each year.
Our keyboardist once provoked a failure with 10 minutes of Scarlatti -- with a hammer and a damper both not returning.
I've observed a smallish dark area on every failed center pin.  I don't know if it is corrosion or plating failure.  I have found that burnishing and lubricating is NOT a long term solution -- failures re-occur in the space of a few weeks to a month.  Reaming, burnishing, and re-pinning has proven to be a lasting fix.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 20:24
From: Donald Mannino
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,

One of my mantras in my action center class is that the doggone cloth bushed action center is one of the more difficult parts of pianos to manufacture well.  Many manufacturers get it wrong, and it is made worse because it's rather easy to make errors that cause them to be working fine when the piano is shipped, but with regular use the centers begin to freeze up.

It's best to ream and repin, and investigate things closely as you work.  Most common cause in newish pianos like this is instability in the bushing cloth.  One cause I found (at a previous employer and a few others) is that the bushings can be twisted or scrunched up in the part when the pin is fitted and made functional, but with use and temperature / humidity cycling the bushing sort of unwinds in the part and binds on the pin.

After it has tightened, reaming, burnishing and new pins generally solve this problem permanently because the bushing has settled into a more stable state, and the burnishing especially helps finish the process.

It can also be thin glue soaked through the cloth, burrs from improper pin cutting snagging the cloth, or wood flanges twisting or bowing in and binding on the birds-eye.  etc. etc. etc. etc.

------------------------------
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America Corporation

Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2019 18:33
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

I have had the exact same experience John describes several time. I have been told by some techs that Protek worked to solve the issue for them. I haven't found that to be true in the cases I observed.

Don's insights are interesting. I have found using a re-pinning method that employs a very slight reaming of the tighter side of the bushing pairs, and then heating with a heat gun the uncut exposed part of the pin, and then pinning the flange leaving the new pin uncut overnight, and then resizing with heat and/or exercise the flanges the next day as needed produces firm, trouble free action centers.


------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 21:24
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,
I would add that with a ~10 year old Kohler-Campbell (Samick) 6' grand, damper lever centers and hammer centers have both seized -- around a 1/2 dozen each year.
Our keyboardist once provoked a failure with 10 minutes of Scarlatti -- with a hammer and a damper both not returning.
I've observed a smallish dark area on every failed center pin.  I don't know if it is corrosion or plating failure.  I have found that burnishing and lubricating is NOT a long term solution -- failures re-occur in the space of a few weeks to a month.  Reaming, burnishing, and re-pinning has proven to be a lasting fix.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 20:24
From: Donald Mannino
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,

One of my mantras in my action center class is that the doggone cloth bushed action center is one of the more difficult parts of pianos to manufacture well.  Many manufacturers get it wrong, and it is made worse because it's rather easy to make errors that cause them to be working fine when the piano is shipped, but with regular use the centers begin to freeze up.

It's best to ream and repin, and investigate things closely as you work.  Most common cause in newish pianos like this is instability in the bushing cloth.  One cause I found (at a previous employer and a few others) is that the bushings can be twisted or scrunched up in the part when the pin is fitted and made functional, but with use and temperature / humidity cycling the bushing sort of unwinds in the part and binds on the pin.

After it has tightened, reaming, burnishing and new pins generally solve this problem permanently because the bushing has settled into a more stable state, and the burnishing especially helps finish the process.

It can also be thin glue soaked through the cloth, burrs from improper pin cutting snagging the cloth, or wood flanges twisting or bowing in and binding on the birds-eye.  etc. etc. etc. etc.

------------------------------
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America Corporation

Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2019 18:33
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message------

I have had the exact same experience John describes several time. I have been told by some techs that Protek worked to solve the issue for them. I haven't found that to be true in the cases I observed.

Don's insights are interesting. I have found using a re-pinning method that employs a very slight reaming of the tighter side of the bushing pairs, and then heating with a heat gun the uncut exposed part of the pin, and then pinning the flange leaving the new pin uncut overnight, and then resizing with heat and/or exercise the flanges the next day as needed produces firm, trouble free action centers.


------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Hello.?? This isn't scientific, but I think the problem with most pianos
from Asia is that the felt is so over-processed that there isn't any
lanolin in it.?? In my theory, the felt is very course. The dark spots
are the felt wearing off the pin plating.?? I see this often in Yamaha
balance rail bushings and around center pins in other pianos.?? Sometimes
when you start playing the action seems free, then stiffens, because the
friction of the course felt heats up the center pin and the pin swells,
then becoming tight. Protek works for a while, but it's like putting
lubricant on a file. It still rough.?? This is also the source of the
squeaking you hear, like in damper levers.

I got this idea from a client whose hobby is knitting.?? She has a
Bergman grand where every moving part was tight and squeaked.?? I put
lube on the squeaks.?? She said that when she buys yarn from France or
the US, it's fine.?? She bought yarn from Asia once and her fingertips
cracked from how dry it was.?? The Pramberger service manual says their
felt is high quality but "it can be noisy."?? I read that to mean it can
squeak.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Robert


Original Message------

I have had the exact same experience John describes several time. I have been told by some techs that Protek worked to solve the issue for them. I haven't found that to be true in the cases I observed.

Don's insights are interesting. I have found using a re-pinning method that employs a very slight reaming of the tighter side of the bushing pairs, and then heating with a heat gun the uncut exposed part of the pin, and then pinning the flange leaving the new pin uncut overnight, and then resizing with heat and/or exercise the flanges the next day as needed produces firm, trouble free action centers.


------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message------

Hello.?? This isn't scientific, but I think the problem with most pianos
from Asia is that the felt is so over-processed that there isn't any
lanolin in it.?? In my theory, the felt is very course. The dark spots
are the felt wearing off the pin plating.?? I see this often in Yamaha
balance rail bushings and around center pins in other pianos.?? Sometimes
when you start playing the action seems free, then stiffens, because the
friction of the course felt heats up the center pin and the pin swells,
then becoming tight. Protek works for a while, but it's like putting
lubricant on a file. It still rough.?? This is also the source of the
squeaking you hear, like in damper levers.

I got this idea from a client whose hobby is knitting.?? She has a
Bergman grand where every moving part was tight and squeaked.?? I put
lube on the squeaks.?? She said that when she buys yarn from France or
the US, it's fine.?? She bought yarn from Asia once and her fingertips
cracked from how dry it was.?? The Pramberger service manual says their
felt is high quality but "it can be noisy."?? I read that to mean it can
squeak.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Robert

Hello. This isn't scientific, but I think the problem with most pianos from Asia is that the felt is so over-processed that there isn't any lanolin in it. In my theory, the felt is very course. The dark spots are the felt wearing off the pin plating. I see this often in Yamaha balance rail bushings and around center pins in other pianos. Sometimes when you start playing the action seems free, then stiffens, because the friction of the course felt heats up the center pin and the pin swells, then becoming tight. Protek works for a while, but it's like putting lubricant on a file. It still rough. This is also the source of the squeaking you hear, like in damper levers.

I got this idea from a client whose hobby is knitting. She has a Bergman grand where every moving part was tight and squeaked. I put lube on the squeaks. She said that when she buys yarn from France or the US, it's fine. She bought yarn from Asia once and her fingertips cracked from how dry it was. The Pramberger service manual says their felt is high quality but "it can be noisy." I read that to mean it can squeak.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Robert

------------------------------
Robert Callaghan
Reno NV
775-287-2140
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 21:24
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,
I would add that with a ~10 year old Kohler-Campbell (Samick) 6' grand, damper lever centers and hammer centers have both seized -- around a 1/2 dozen each year.
Our keyboardist once provoked a failure with 10 minutes of Scarlatti -- with a hammer and a damper both not returning.
I've observed a smallish dark area on every failed center pin.  I don't know if it is corrosion or plating failure.  I have found that burnishing and lubricating is NOT a long term solution -- failures re-occur in the space of a few weeks to a month.  Reaming, burnishing, and re-pinning has proven to be a lasting fix.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 20:24
From: Donald Mannino
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,

One of my mantras in my action center class is that the doggone cloth bushed action center is one of the more difficult parts of pianos to manufacture well.  Many manufacturers get it wrong, and it is made worse because it's rather easy to make errors that cause them to be working fine when the piano is shipped, but with regular use the centers begin to freeze up.

It's best to ream and repin, and investigate things closely as you work.  Most common cause in newish pianos like this is instability in the bushing cloth.  One cause I found (at a previous employer and a few others) is that the bushings can be twisted or scrunched up in the part when the pin is fitted and made functional, but with use and temperature / humidity cycling the bushing sort of unwinds in the part and binds on the pin.

After it has tightened, reaming, burnishing and new pins generally solve this problem permanently because the bushing has settled into a more stable state, and the burnishing especially helps finish the process.

It can also be thin glue soaked through the cloth, burrs from improper pin cutting snagging the cloth, or wood flanges twisting or bowing in and binding on the birds-eye.  etc. etc. etc. etc.

------------------------------
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America Corporation

Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2019 18:33
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

I do believe felt makers are expected to neutralize the PH after the acid soak is used to burn out carbon materials. There was a period when Partt-Read  vertical actions all got rusted damper and hammer springs where they contacted the felt. The PH was left acid they discovered and when it got humid, the springs corroded.

I have never bought into the Lanolin theory.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2019 12:08
From: Robert Callaghan
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Hello. This isn't scientific, but I think the problem with most pianos from Asia is that the felt is so over-processed that there isn't any lanolin in it. In my theory, the felt is very course. The dark spots are the felt wearing off the pin plating. I see this often in Yamaha balance rail bushings and around center pins in other pianos. Sometimes when you start playing the action seems free, then stiffens, because the friction of the course felt heats up the center pin and the pin swells, then becoming tight. Protek works for a while, but it's like putting lubricant on a file. It still rough. This is also the source of the squeaking you hear, like in damper levers.

I got this idea from a client whose hobby is knitting. She has a Bergman grand where every moving part was tight and squeaked. I put lube on the squeaks. She said that when she buys yarn from France or the US, it's fine. She bought yarn from Asia once and her fingertips cracked from how dry it was. The Pramberger service manual says their felt is high quality but "it can be noisy." I read that to mean it can squeak.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Robert

------------------------------
Robert Callaghan
Reno NV
775-287-2140

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 21:24
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,
I would add that with a ~10 year old Kohler-Campbell (Samick) 6' grand, damper lever centers and hammer centers have both seized -- around a 1/2 dozen each year.
Our keyboardist once provoked a failure with 10 minutes of Scarlatti -- with a hammer and a damper both not returning.
I've observed a smallish dark area on every failed center pin.  I don't know if it is corrosion or plating failure.  I have found that burnishing and lubricating is NOT a long term solution -- failures re-occur in the space of a few weeks to a month.  Reaming, burnishing, and re-pinning has proven to be a lasting fix.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 20:24
From: Donald Mannino
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,

One of my mantras in my action center class is that the doggone cloth bushed action center is one of the more difficult parts of pianos to manufacture well.  Many manufacturers get it wrong, and it is made worse because it's rather easy to make errors that cause them to be working fine when the piano is shipped, but with regular use the centers begin to freeze up.

It's best to ream and repin, and investigate things closely as you work.  Most common cause in newish pianos like this is instability in the bushing cloth.  One cause I found (at a previous employer and a few others) is that the bushings can be twisted or scrunched up in the part when the pin is fitted and made functional, but with use and temperature / humidity cycling the bushing sort of unwinds in the part and binds on the pin.

After it has tightened, reaming, burnishing and new pins generally solve this problem permanently because the bushing has settled into a more stable state, and the burnishing especially helps finish the process.

It can also be thin glue soaked through the cloth, burrs from improper pin cutting snagging the cloth, or wood flanges twisting or bowing in and binding on the birds-eye.  etc. etc. etc. etc.

------------------------------
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America Corporation

Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2019 18:33
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Are Young Chang pianos also affected by this problem?

------------------------------
David Bauguess
Grand Junction CO
970-257-1750
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2019 21:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

I do believe felt makers are expected to neutralize the PH after the acid soak is used to burn out carbon materials. There was a period when Partt-Read  vertical actions all got rusted damper and hammer springs where they contacted the felt. The PH was left acid they discovered and when it got humid, the springs corroded.

I have never bought into the Lanolin theory.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2019 12:08
From: Robert Callaghan
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Hello. This isn't scientific, but I think the problem with most pianos from Asia is that the felt is so over-processed that there isn't any lanolin in it. In my theory, the felt is very course. The dark spots are the felt wearing off the pin plating. I see this often in Yamaha balance rail bushings and around center pins in other pianos. Sometimes when you start playing the action seems free, then stiffens, because the friction of the course felt heats up the center pin and the pin swells, then becoming tight. Protek works for a while, but it's like putting lubricant on a file. It still rough. This is also the source of the squeaking you hear, like in damper levers.

I got this idea from a client whose hobby is knitting. She has a Bergman grand where every moving part was tight and squeaked. I put lube on the squeaks. She said that when she buys yarn from France or the US, it's fine. She bought yarn from Asia once and her fingertips cracked from how dry it was. The Pramberger service manual says their felt is high quality but "it can be noisy." I read that to mean it can squeak.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Robert

------------------------------
Robert Callaghan
Reno NV
775-287-2140

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 21:24
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,
I would add that with a ~10 year old Kohler-Campbell (Samick) 6' grand, damper lever centers and hammer centers have both seized -- around a 1/2 dozen each year.
Our keyboardist once provoked a failure with 10 minutes of Scarlatti -- with a hammer and a damper both not returning.
I've observed a smallish dark area on every failed center pin.  I don't know if it is corrosion or plating failure.  I have found that burnishing and lubricating is NOT a long term solution -- failures re-occur in the space of a few weeks to a month.  Reaming, burnishing, and re-pinning has proven to be a lasting fix.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728

Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2019 20:24
From: Donald Mannino
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

Ed,

One of my mantras in my action center class is that the doggone cloth bushed action center is one of the more difficult parts of pianos to manufacture well.  Many manufacturers get it wrong, and it is made worse because it's rather easy to make errors that cause them to be working fine when the piano is shipped, but with regular use the centers begin to freeze up.

It's best to ream and repin, and investigate things closely as you work.  Most common cause in newish pianos like this is instability in the bushing cloth.  One cause I found (at a previous employer and a few others) is that the bushings can be twisted or scrunched up in the part when the pin is fitted and made functional, but with use and temperature / humidity cycling the bushing sort of unwinds in the part and binds on the pin.

After it has tightened, reaming, burnishing and new pins generally solve this problem permanently because the bushing has settled into a more stable state, and the burnishing especially helps finish the process.

It can also be thin glue soaked through the cloth, burrs from improper pin cutting snagging the cloth, or wood flanges twisting or bowing in and binding on the birds-eye.  etc. etc. etc. etc.

------------------------------
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America Corporation

Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2019 18:33
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message------

Are Young Chang pianos also affected by this problem?

------------------------------
David Bauguess
Grand Junction CO
970-257-1750
------------------------------