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New Perfomance Piano

  • 1.  New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-08-2019 16:13
    I know this question could be challenging...but I would REALLY appreciate some input on this topic. This question JUST came up, so this is really at the very beginning of what will likely be a process. 
    Bottom line first: 
    Of all the brand new currently available concert grand pianos, what are some of your BEST/FAVORITES? 

    Now a little more detail; this will be for a fairly good size traditional Church here in Lubbock, Texas-there will be a pretty significant private donation, and most then most likely a fundraiser. Note: a LOT of our professors at the School of Music attend this church and there will be lots of COLLABOATIVE events which is why I feel ok about asking this forum.)

     So it will probably need to be from a dealer SOMEWHERE in Texas, Albuquerque or similar. Fazioli would be an obvious choice but I'm not sure there will be a budget for anything that expensive. Boursendorfer (sp?) would probably be too expensive (& too bright!)  (When the TTU SOM bought our 278 about 6 years ago, I believe retail price was about 185,000. Our 5 year old St D was sold to us for just under 125,000 at that time. I shudder to think what they are right now-IF a good one could even be located.) 
    I have spoken (briefly) to our Yamaha dealer here and he called Yamaha to get a price on a new CFX 9 ft Yamaha-and these are now on BACKORDER! (Surely there is one on a showroom floor somewhere, right? If anyone in this vicinity knows of one that could be looked at/listened to, let me know)
    So, I have been hearing really great things about Estonia grands but are they even in the concert grand market? 
    I have already mentioned Mason, Kawai (and Shiguru) So These could be possibilities. 
    Any thoughts or recent experiences great ones?? 


    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Posted 03-08-2019 16:50
    Kevin, if you email me at martin.snow382@gmail.com I can give you some recent pricings  on some of these pianos you mentioned.....martin

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    Martin Snow
    Boston MA
    617-543-1030
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  • 3.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-08-2019 17:47
    Mason & Hamlin has been upgrading their CC for a few years and Bruce Clark feels it's really good. He's been asking around for professional pianists to come play it and critique it. 
    I haven't seen or played one, but I personally like them. And they won't cost what brand S or B will cost. 

    Debbie Cyr
    Registered Piano Technician 
    508-202-2862 cell

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 4.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-08-2019 17:52
    As previously posted on this list, I have a client who was recently in the market for a concert grand and narrowed it down to either Estonia (a brand that received praise earlier today on another thread) and Schimmel. He decided on the Schimmel K-280, and got one for a very affordable price (under $100k). 

    I have also posted about a day spent with the folks from Steingraeber in January of this year. Steingraeber would be my personal first choice. Don't believe they have a dealer in Texas, though. In fact, their seven-footer sounds bigger than the nine-footers of most other brands do. Both of these pianos has an enormous dynamic range. Steingraeber is even more expensive ($300k for a concert grand with all of the bells and whistles) than Fazioli, however.

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 5.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Posted 03-09-2019 08:47
    I'm a recent convert to loving the top-tier Schimmel and Seiler grands. I'd stack them up against pretty much anybody thus far mentioned.

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    Richard T. Cromwell
    Owner
    Aligned Harmonics

    Ph: (248) 894-6778
    Web: alignedharmonics.com
    email: detroit.pianoworks@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-09-2019 10:17
    Kevin,

    I know you know what I'm about to say, but it bears repeating and emphasizing. Concert grands are thoroughbreds and require a commitment by the venue to keep on top of maintenance. There needs to be time for voicing. In five to 10 years that piano will need a complete regulation and voicing. New hammers may be needed. Restringing at some point. 

    Beyond that I haven't heard any concert grand that was absolutely terrible.  Any company that is big enough to offer a 7 to 10 foot grand has to put its best foot forward, and so that rarefied realm of the concert world is something special and companies have to show off what they can do. 

    Having said that, keep Steinway in the mix of possible choices. As its advertising claims, it's still the "Standard Piano of the World" much to the chagrin of many other companies. That's not to say that all the other possible choices can't compete in sound and price. But a well-regulated and voiced Steinway is still hard to beat. IMHO, of course. It's an American company that we love to pick on because it's close to home and we're all familiar with the way it operates.

    Richard West








  • 7.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-09-2019 11:24
    Thanks so much Richard (and to EVERYONE. I have also received some wonderful input offline)

    And yes Steinway will definitely be in the mix if not THE standard they will be using. We are huge Steinway fans here. But I wanted to educated myself a bit more & try to consider some of the other options. Ultimately they will decide. 
    I have received some REALLY amazing feedback, mostly offline, about Masons. I suspected this but it is wonderful to hear such wonderful feedback in real life situations. I also just love the people at Mason. It sounds like their new selection room in MA is pretty amazing also. 

    Richard, I could not agree more regarding the extra maintenance of taking on a concert grand. I love the excitement & energy they have but IMHO this church needs to look more at a Steinway B, a Yamaha CX7, a Fazioli 212 (one of our piano professors traded in her Steinway B for a 212 about 6 years ago. It's amazing but she's about to retire & move to SF CALIF to be with her daughter.) I will definitely be putting in my "2 cents on this". 
    Thanks for your seasoned thoughts & wisdom Richard. I just love this forum!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-09-2019 15:03

    Hi all, The Siguru Kawai is also a fantastic piano, worth the consideration.

     

    We just bought 2 Steinway D's here at USC, and they are also just stellar.  You have to try each one as they are all different.

     

    Paul

     






  • 9.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-09-2019 15:26
    Exactly! Yes, I did mention Shiguru in my post and I think this could be a very viable option. I have actually only experienced one Shiguru...in Waco several years ago. But I'm hearing wonderful things about them.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-09-2019 20:19
    Hi Kevin-

    Our Department has been in that same search for a while now. It's not final so too early say for sure, but we did find an amazing Bösendorfer 280VC and going to take a second look soon. 
    I had some concerns about Bösendorfer actions, based on my experience with the older ones I've worked on, but when I saw how the new models are redesigned now with a butterfly rep spring, no assist springs, updated action screws, better hammer profile and checking, etc...  I'm on board with it too.  If you haven't heard this new model I recommend going out of your way for it, if necessary.  

    good luck,
    dennis.  

    --
    Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
    Piano Technician
    Music Dept.
    St. Olaf College





  • 11.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-09-2019 21:15
    As a newbie to the concert stage and at risk of sounding ignorant:

    Aside from personal preference and tastes, it's my understanding that once you get into the (really) high end market (Steinway Ds, Bösendorfers, etc.) the pianos hold up well over time. It's just a matter of preference. Is this true? Somewhat true, or entirely wrong?

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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  • 12.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-10-2019 21:52
    I have heard some sales representatives from Steinway exclaim that a D is only expected to go about ten years on a major performance venue before the sound is reduced from the ideal. 

    This shocks me greatly. A properly made, housed and maintained concert grand should sound better than new in ten years as the hammers get properly broke in. The economics of replacing a concert grand after only ten years are sure crazy. 

    I wonder if some of this "belief" comes from "abusive" services like smashing strings into bridges and improperly configured V-bars which often show their ugly side after about ten years. And overlacquered hammers that should have their mass reduced first before deciding if lacquer is needed.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 13.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2019 04:29
    Yeah, right, since when to we believe piano salesmen? Sounds like salesman nonsense to me. Having worked for two different Steinway dealers (Boston and  the San Francisco Bay Area) I can assure you that most of them have no clue, one or two that I worked with just make it up as they go along, and what little piano knowledge they do manage to pick up, they garble hopelessly. There are exceptions...

    What is true is that Steinway keeps their concert stock pianos in the C & A program for about ten years, after which they sell them and replace them with new ones. The reason for that (as I was told by one of their factory reps) is not wear-and-tear, but a marketing idea - they want their concert stock pianos to reflect more-or-less whatever is currently coming off the production lines. I'll take that with a grain of salt. I suspect that part of the reason is that after being hauled from concert site to concert site for ten years they don't look all that pretty - and to that I can attest from my time working with the Steinway concert stock pianos at Steinert in Boston - so, is a beat-up looking piano what you want to represent the brand on the concert stage? Just a conjecture...  I also suspect that this is where Ed's salesman got the 10 years number - and, yes, could be just a good example of how salesmen garble information...

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    Israel Stein RPT
    P.O. Box 68141
    Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
    510-558-0777
    istein248@gmail.com
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  • 14.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2019 10:48
    Ed & Israel, some good observations. I can definitely see how this C & A scenario could be "used" or "exploited" -twisted around even...to help the sales Dept make their case. 
    Although I compete agree that other than hammer life, bushings, etc-this 10 year notion is total "BUNK". 

    One of our Ds built in about 1984, the one we affectionately call "The Smith" because it was hand selected in New York & completely paid for & donated to the SOM by Ed Smith -a nontraditional student (& very successful business man) decided to go back to school & learn piano from Bill Westney. For his final recital he played some big huge piece by Chopin...on this piano he paid for & gave the school! 
    Dan McSpadden put new Renner parts on it before I came & I restrung it, dressed the V bar, new aggraffes & bridge pins my first year at Tech in '09. Anyway, this is STILL one of the piano faculty's, and many other's including mine-favorite sounding pianos! It's in our 2nd recital venue to this day. Original soundboard, & block. 
    Hammers, felt, strings all need to be replaced WHEN THE NEED TO BE REPLACED! What does this have to do with the "10 year life expectancy"??

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2019 11:23

    As I think Kevin was pointing out, in addition to some cosmetic wear and tear what generally is showing signs of decline within 10 years of heavy use on these C&A pianos- are the actions. Considering also that it's relatively easy to sell these tried and true instruments as is, often with signatures of prominent pianists on the plate, it makes good business and marketing sense to sell and replace with new ones. Don't mean to sound cynical, but focusing on the soundboard rather a worn-out action is totally consistent with that larger plan, especially since standards for parts replacement vary considerably with different venues and budgets. 


    Dennis.  
    --
    Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
    Piano Technician
    Music Dept.
    St. Olaf College





  • 16.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2019 13:16
    Hi, all,

    I think there are two separate groups of pianos being discussed. A good concert piano in a school or venue, which is really well-maintained and shares the load with another piano or two, can last much longer than ten years, as we all know. At this point, I have 3 Hamburg and 7 NY D’s in service in concert halls that are anywhere from 9 to 18 years old. (There are also two CFX and two CFIII that aren’t that old, so I can’t comment on their wear patterns yet.) I have also worked a lot in the past with C&A concert grands that live “on the road”, being rented for various venues. And I had 6 NY D’s in use at CSULB while I worked there for 30 years.

    The C&A pianos, at least locally, are “eligible” for retail sale after 3 years. They are NOT worn out at that age. I have had one or two that I hated to see go, because at 3 years old they were going great, well-loved by the venues, and had at least 3-4 years of heavy service left. That seems purely marketing, yes, because people lined up to get their hands on the piano “touched by the great pianists” etc etc.

    The pianos that get moved a lot have more trouble from the trucking. I was working with several C&A pianos out of LA, years back, and the dealer only let 3 or 4 of us ever tune them. We all swore three ways to Sunday that none of us ever inserted a mute strip without raising the dampers first, yet the tips of the dampers were always tearing. I finally realized that it was happening during shipping, when the piano was on its side and the dampers worked free of the strings, leaving them to jounce up and down while the strings pulled at the tender tips. Potholes, what are you gonna do?

    Pianos that stay in one place have different situations. My D’s share the load, like 4 in one venue, 2 in another, etc. taking the heavy concerts. That extends their life by at least double, of course.

    When they start to break strings, from wear - always assuming good regulation, voicing, and so on, but Prokofiev and Rachmaninov will take their toll after a while - it’s time to look at new treble wire. Also, I have heard a tinny, thinner sound develop as the strings get tired, which I can’t work around with hammer voicing. I have now had Bruce Stevens here in LA put all new strings and wire on 5 of my NY D’s, and even with the original hammers, the sound is fresh and clear again. In my case, that happened at 10-18 years of use. Three of those pianos also got new hammers, and we’re looking at another 5-10 years, easy. The pianos are met with satisfaction from visiting artists. The NY D’s that I worked with at CSULB are still going strong, one with a re-stringing, after over 25 years. I am no longer there, but they have followed a pattern of regular tuning, voicing and regulation. And the one that got re-strung also got new hammers recently.

    The look of the piano will diminish over time, even with good covers and even leg wraps (super helpful, try them - makes the piano look like a Thoroughbred in warm-up pants). I have had a good local refinisher guy, who is admittedly a master at the specialty of touchup, come in every year or two. The satin pianos from the past are harder to maintain, and the newer ones in polyester are pretty easy. But when they chip, I think they’re harder to repair?

    Concert pianos absolutely should be limited to dress rehearsals and performance only, or they become (if they get regular practice allowed) practice room pianos! A good Hands-Off lock and key control were my best friends at CSU. As we have said, it’s all about the hours and the wear.

    Many excellent pianos have been mentioned here. My experience is limited to what the local venues, where I work, have purchased.

    Always a fun project, choosing a nice new piano, have fun!




  • 17.  RE: New Perfomance Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2019 01:55
    You'll know in 100 years.   Kidding.

    High end pianos "hold up" forever, if you keep rebuilding them.  The nice thing about Steinway is that enough rebuilders have experienced their nuances that there is a relatively predictable cost and result.  Other makes are not as much a "sure thing".  

    High end pianos in extremely demanding situations also are required to perform to the 98th percentile of touch, tone, and power.  The soundboard on big pianos is often the thing than bumps it down to second tier service.   I wonder what the average age of the Steinway C&A fleet is today? Does Bosendorfer have a C&A fleet of rentals?   

    People I respect have suggested 10 years is old for a top performance venue piano.  This is the opposite of the coveted "Stradivarius" violin, which magically (supposedly) gets better with passing centuries.  

    I've often wondered what a soundboard would be built like if we expected it to get better with time.  And how bad would it sound in year one?  And who would buy a piano that sounded that bad?

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    Greg Graham, RPT
    Brodheadsville, PA
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