CAUT

Expand all | Collapse all

Yamaha CFX Voicing

  • 1.  Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 05:51
    Good Day All,

    I’m taking care of a Yamaha CFX this summer for our annual music festival. What is a good recommendation for giving it more power without using too much hammer hardener? I honestly don’t have a great deal of experience with Yamaha concert grands!



    Stephen R Duncan
    Piano Technician, CVPA,
    UNC-Greensboro
    336-847-6310


  • 2.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 06:11
    Is this  a loaner piano from Yamaha for the Festival or a school owned piano,? I took a quick look at the schools site and the Summer  festival which starts next week, if as you state you do not have much experience voicing the CFX this is not the time to experiment, concentrate on  solid tunings for the duration of the short season, the site indicates it is primarily chamber music recitals so its very likely that the piano is just fine  for this collaborative usage,  the CFX is a wonderful piano.
    www.snowpianos.com

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 06:53
    This is the Eastern Music Festival. Nothing to do with UNCG. I only see these CFX pianos for 5 weeks per year. I have a specific request from the artist to bring the piano up. 

    Thanks for your reply! 

    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 4.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 07:20
    'Battery' voicing?  Consult with the piano's owner before you embark on this.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2019 08:08
    Mr.Duncan,
     It would help to know what part of the piano the artist wants more power in. My own experience with the CFX generation of hammers is that they want a fair amount of hardening in the top 3 octaves. Before I did anything to the hammers however I'd look closely at the action regulation and lubrication to see if there are places where the power transmission from key to string can be improved. Many times an artist has asked me to "voice up" an instrument when what they really wanted was for the action to feel better. As a mechanic I make a clear distinction between tone and touch but I've found that pianists rarely experience the piano in that way.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 08:54
    Check with Ruggero Piano in Raleigh. They are a top line Yamaha dealer with and keep their pianos in top condition.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 09:13
    Already did Ed. This is an instrument from another dealer. 
    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 8.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 09:29
    I meant that Richard Ruggero might share some advice and experience in voicing the CFX.
    Yamaha techs have been demonstrating a particular unison tuning for the best sound from these instruments. (I don't claim to know how to do it!)

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-26-2019 09:36
    According to Richard, the specific dealer has to give me permission. Hopefully whoever this dealer is will take care of it!

    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 10.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2019 09:43
    A first step would be confirming that the mating is impeccable. Mating that is slightly off will rob power. Second on my list would be to experiment with hammer filing, using small grits. I use strips of micron graded sanding film, and I would be going 30/15/9 in micron size of grit, which is more or less equivalent to 500/1000/1500 in standard sandpaper grit. This can tend to increase felting on the striking surface (in my mental image), and makes for crisper attack sound.

    I don't have much experience with CFX in particular, but for needling up in power, I like a technique I learned from Terri Otake of Shigeru Kawai, which involves one long needle aiming from mid-low shoulder upward toward the molding/crown. It is easy to experiment and see if this is going to give you anything. For the side toward the shank, the Renner needling tool with the cut outs for finger and thumb gives you access for the right angle and for enough force to inset the needle.

    And, of course, there are regulation parameters that might be in play, but that would require getting inside the head of the pianist, asking questions about specifically what is meant by bringing up power: in what context? 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein












  • 11.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2019 10:11
    Fred's last paragraph I find most important.  Let off/drop in particular have parameters and can be used for voicing.  They must be optimal for the pianist's likes before exploring other techniques.

    ------------------------------
    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2019 08:03
    I was told by a Yamaha tech in a CFX-specific session three years ago that two other things to check when there is a perceived loss of power are setting of the damper upstop rail (possibly too low) and that the hammer tails may be catching on the backchecks on a fff blow. I'd check both of those before doing anything invasive such as needling or juicing.
    Good luck!

    David Dunn, RPT
    Piano Maintenance Technician and Coordinator
    UNI School of Music – RSL 190
    Cedar Falls, IA 50614-0246
    319-273-7337
    david.dunn@uni.edu





  • 13.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2019 08:21
    Not certain from the OP whether this is a LOSS of power (compared to what it had been previously), or just a case of the pianist "wanting more" (of what, we cannot always be sure!). Whether or not the pianist has had previous experience with this particular instrument, I would add to David's good suggestions to check the balance rail bedding. Many calories of pianists' energy have been squandered due to glide bolts not in contact with the keyed. When this aspect is out of regulation, the more force the player applies, the more energy is lost, so it looms larger at higher dynamic levels.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2019 08:24
    Make that:

    "...glide bolts not in contact wit the keybed..." (darn overly aggressive spellcheck!)

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-27-2019 08:57
    Good advice Alan and David Love! Again thanks to all for taking the time to respond! I'm well armed to take on the challenges of making another fine artist happy! 

    This is my 42nd year as a piano technician and there's still so many new things to learn!

    Happy Piano Servicing Y'all!

    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 16.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2019 10:00
    P. S. not sure if anyone in this thread has mentioned the importance of let-off being close enough to optimize tone and projection at all volume levels. And hey, it's readily reversible!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2019 02:20
    Needs more power where?  Everywhere?  I would not use hardeners on those pianos, especially a loaner. Do what Fred suggested Re the mating, very important. Polishing can help but not likely to affect F and above dynamics, though it might give more clarity at lower dynamic levels. Packing down the felt can help either by pounding the crown with a small hammer (support the tails) or hovering a block of wood above the hammers and pounding the hammers  into the block using a keystroke. But that will only work in the treble section, probably. If the whole piano needs to be brought up I think the pianist will have to adapt. You can't always get what you want...

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-27-2019 05:39
    Thank you everyone for the wonderful tips on voicing! I'm very impressed with the CFX models


    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 19.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2019 10:07

    For what's its worth I heartedly second those comments about not using hardener in a situation like this based on the request of one visiting pianist.  Our best pianists here also say the same thing that David just mentioned. Once everything else is properly set up in the piano, it is the pianist job to deliver that power to the hall. Yamaha hammers are not designed to need additional lacquer once they have left the factory..... Naturally I don't have the authority to speak for Yamaha, but that's my understanding and education. 

    best,
    d.  
    --
    Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
    Piano Technician
    Music Dept.
    St. Olaf College





  • 20.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2019 08:23
    As I was reading through this I started saying to myself: "Check the glide bolts..."

    Right then I read Alan's comment.  👍

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-28-2019 08:32
    The Yamaha keyframe is flexible enough to allow lowering the glide bolts very slightly to increase keydip and aftertouch. This may allow the pianist to play a little harder and get the feeling he/she wants. (Told to me long ago by a Yamaha technician.)

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-28-2019 08:43
    Thank you all again for the great ideas

    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 23.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2019 09:27
    A side effect of the flexible Yamaha frame: it is unlikely that all the glides will be high, leading to loss of power throughout, as with the Steinway stiff frame. OTOH, individual glides could be high, leading to localized issues.






  • 24.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-28-2019 09:45
    Try hardening the shoulders, then side needling near the crown. Maximum benefit for little or no risk.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 25.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Posted 06-28-2019 10:06
    As it turns out for this concert, a dealer technician is 
    coming in to take care of our needs! I have printed all our your emails and will refer to all these ideas in the future! 

    Stephen R Duncan 
    Piano Technician,  CVPA, 
    UNC-Greensboro 
    336-847-6310






  • 26.  RE: Yamaha CFX Voicing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2019 11:26
    One of the ways that Yamaha recommends checking the glides is to measure the dip and feel the aftertouch.  If it is not at exactly 10mm or the aftertouch feels a a bit too little, that is the tip off that the glides are too high.  You can use the 10mm dip measurement to calibrate setting the glides.

    ------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    ------------------------------