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Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

  • 1.  Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2020 15:10
    Greetings List,

    Early 19080's Steinway B has a squeak in the sustain pedal. Makes noise in both directions (down and up). We have a fairly high degree of confidence that the sound is coming from the spiral damper tray return spring (i. e., not the tray end pin in the pivot block, and not from the individual dampers themselves). When hunting down a noise, I always start by asking what materials I am hearing.This noise sounds metallic.

    Could this be the spring itself? And if so, might weaving bushing cloth into the spring abate the noise? And if that doesn't work, replacing the spring?

    It looks like I could get the spring out (without removing the dampers) without too much trouble. How about putting it back in?

    If the problem turns out to be not the spring itself, but one or both areas where the spring contacts at either end, it seems like that would necessitate removing the tray (which would mean disengaging, and subsequently re-regulating all of the dampers). Comments about this (other than the pianist would then, for the first time, have a well-regulated back action)?

    This is my first encounter with a noise that appears to be emanating from the damper tray return spring, although I do not imagine that this is a problem unique to this particular piano. If others have experience applicable to this situation, I would be grateful for any practical guidance about how best to proceed.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2020 07:41
    Has this piano's pitman in a bushed hole through the keybed been converted to the modern pitman system? If not, that (pitman against bushing, against leather on the tray, and against trapwork leather) is the usual source of noises.

    ------------------------------
    Mario Igrec, RPT, MM
    Chief Piano Technician, The Juilliard School
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Member
    Posted 08-29-2020 23:42


    September 2000 issue of the Piano Technicians Journal has an article on how to modernize the damper lift dowel by enlarging the hole in the keybed using a Forstner bit and doing other things When I took the spring out the pianist complained about the change so I put it back in. I ordered a new spring but she never had me come back . I did modernize the pitman/lift dowel and it took care of some of the noise.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2020 11:27

    CAUTION: long post

    Apologies for the lapse in response and follow-up communication. Have had very limited internet access for the past week.


    Old business before new. First, responses to the responders to the OP…


    David S.:  You wrote, "Did you raise and lower the damper tray manually?  Of course you did." Roger that.

    Also, I am glad to be able to confirm that there will indeed still be pianos around 17,000 years from now. Count on it!

    And as for your observation about our profession being a bottomless bucket of challenges and chances to learn new things (I am taking great liberties at paraphrasing here… When, at age 18, I considered becoming a piano technician, it occurred to me that this could be a profession that would interest, engage, intrigue and reward me for the rest of my life, and that I could probably practice it until I just didn't wake up some day. There was a lot I did not get right when I was 18, but so far, it looks like I nailed this one.

     

    Chris: Thanks for your tip about alternative spring stock.

     

    Joe: Regarding David S.'s suggestion of Neatsfoot oil, it looks to be a good lubricant for leather, but some reviewers caution about long-term effects. Thanks for passing along Bosendorfer's concoction (via Mario) for suspending Teflon in Prolube.

     

    Mario: As David S. pointed out, this piano is from some 17,000 years in the future (;-). As such, the pitman came from the factory with a dowel with plenty of elbow room in the clearance hole in the keybed.

     

    Norm: Thanks for your confirmation of the efficacy of weaving material into the coils of the spring, and for the suggestion to use a paste lubricant when reinstalling.

     

    Debbie: Ditto what I said to Norm. (And that's the second time this week that someone's aggressive spell-correction/dictation software resulted in the alternative fact that pianos are manufactured on the Hawaiian island of Kauai! ;-)

     

    David S. (again, re: Chris' tray spring recipe): Yes, in American piano wire sizes, #20 is 0.045" (nominal wire size, times two, plus five equals wire diameter in thousands of an inch).

     

    Robert: Thanks for your suggestion about accessing the spring end captures without actually removing the spring, and for adding to the chorus mentioning the possibility of intra-coil noise.

     

    Dennis: Thanks for introducing the idea of removing the spring in question altogether, when appropriate.

     

    Israel: Thanks for corroborating Dennis' experience/suggestion.

     

    Doug: Thanks for mentioning the possibility of interference with the damper up-stop rail, and for all of the useful information about the tray spring strength and related issues.

     

    James: Thanks for directing those unfamiliar with the modernization of older Steinways pitman arrangements to the article. A Forstner bit will work for this task, as you mention. So will a large twist bit, which has the advantage of self-centering in the old hole.

     

    Now, for the re-cap of our investigation…

    Initially diagnosing this sustain pedal squeak, we worked "from the bottom up" (as the late, great Norman Neblett used to call his damper class), quickly ascertaining that the squeak was NOT coming from these components or interfaces:

    the pedal itself

    the rod/pedal interface (a rubber sock, in this case)

    the rod in its guide-rail bushing (mounted on the lyre posts)

    the rod/trap lever interface (metal vs. leather)

    the trap lever spring itself, or in its captures

    the trap lever pivot

    or

    the pitman (modern style).

     

    Multiple pairs of ears in different positions all heard the sound as coming from the higher end of the damper tray. It seemed to be coming from near the tray spring, between the tenor and lower treble sections, although we knew that, statistically speaking, the damper tray end pin would also be one of the usual suspects.

    After removing the damper tray spring (to test it for noise in isolation), while activating the tray by hand, imagine our surprise when the offending noise was still present! We listened carefully in the vicinity of the two tray end pins. The noise was originating at the bass end of the tray. Like noises emanating from other parts of the piano, the sound was apparently traveling along a piece of wood, only to be heard, ventriloquist-like, somewhere other than where it originated.

    Before lubricating the damper tray end pins, I got a notion to lift handfuls of damper underlevers, which enabled us to zero in on the actual source of the problem. This indicated that the noise was not coming from the end pins.

    I could just tell you what it was, but wouldn't it be more fun for you to guess? Besides, if no one gets it right away, I will feel less frustrated for not having figured this out faster. (Then again, if several people DO get it right away, I suppose it's back to listening that little devil on my left shoulder who's always insisting that I ain't nuthin' but a charlatan hound dog. ;-)

    If you are the first to guess correctly what, specifically, caused the mystery noise, I will present you with a limited edition, original design CalArts-centric "COVID trifecta" t-shirt (sorry, but the only size currently available is a large that runs a bit small).

    Alan

     

     



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Member
    Posted 09-08-2020 17:40

    My vote is friction between the damper guide rail bushings and the damper wires.  Although I've never observed this happening myself, I can conceivably see this being possible.

    Congrats on solving it!



    ------------------------------
    Luke Taylor
    Temple City CA
    310-386-7014
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  • 6.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 11:48
    Once I encountered loose screws in the under lever pivot pin block. The block would shift and squeak.

    ------------------------------
    "PTG - Expand your Horizon. Share the Vision"
    "Promoting Quality Service for the World's Pianos"
    "Good, Better, Best. Never let it rest. 'Til the good is better, and the better best."

    George W.R. "Bill Davis", RPT, SERVP
    2315 Rocky Mountain Rd NE
    Marietta GA 30066-2113
    CP: 770-778-6881
    bill@pianoplace.net
    www.pianoplace.net
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 18:30
    Luke Taylor was the first one to respond on this thread, guessing that it was the damper wire against the guide rail bushing. 

    James Kelly guessed the same thing, before Luke did, but in a private post. And before that, Richard West, RPT guessed correctly, but it was on another thread.

    Karl Roeder suggested the underlever springs could be the culprit, and Bill Davis, RPT pointed out that the noise could be due to loose screws securing the damper tray end pin blocks.

    Thanks for your contributions to this learning experience.

    The noise was coming from the first four dampers in the bass. They were all traveling hard-to-treble and towards the player (at about 4:30). Some manufacturers deliberately make their damper guiderail bushings larger than the diameter of the damper wire. The dampers are supposed to lean slightly against one side. If that was what had been attempted here, is was pursued with the convert's zeal. The guiderail bushings on these lowest four notes were worn out in an oblong, and the wires were bearing against either a compression-hardened portion of the bushing that had become caked with dirt (and bushing cloth red had transferred from the felt to the damper wires), or the wooden guiderail holes, with too little bushing cloth remaining to keep them quiet.

    So, what to do about it? Regulated the damper wires so the offending dampers were actually moving straight up and down (if pianos really are sentient, than that must have been a new sensation for this one!), with the wires bearing ever so lightly against non-worn-out areas of the existing oversized-ID guiderail bushings. The offending noise has been eliminated and, as a bonus, those dampers work more efficiently. If this client turns out to be earnest enough to have me thoroughly rectify this situation by re-bushing the damper guide rail, he will enjoy damping the way the piano gods intended it to be for the first time ever on this piano.

    Well I never!

    So... the winner, as the first one to guess it was the wire against the bushing, is Richard West, RPT. Please provide your mailing address, Richard. I hope the shirt fits! (Luke Taylor, the first one to respond correctly on this thread, already has one of these shirts, because his wife is the graphic artist who co-designed it.)

    Cheers,

    Alan



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-08-2020 20:20
    Mr Eder,
    Given the time period this instrument is from I wonder if the underlever springs were squeaking in their slots. And thanks for the very generous Birthday gift.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 13:30
    This is a great quote for me, Alan. I was 26 when I went to Western Iowa Tech. I learned a lot; I thought I knew a lot. But my first year out taught me I had a lot yet to learn. It's so hard to communicate that to technicians just starting. When you dig in to this business, there's no end to what you can learn, and need to learn. And there are so many like yourself in PTG who step up and are there to help and there as good role models, still learning, still fascinated with the piano and excited with the work.





  • 10.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 13:35
    I thought I had highlighted a section from your post. Here it is:

    When, at age 18, I considered becoming a piano technician, it occurred to me that this could be a profession that would interest, engage, intrigue and reward me for the rest of my life, and that I could probably practice it until I just didn't wake up some day. There was a lot I did not get right when I was 18, but so far, it looks like I nailed this one.

    Thanks, again.

    Richard







  • 11.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2020 07:44
    Another horrible one is the leaf spring against the leather on the trapwork lever.

    I'd spray some tfl50 dry lube on the tray return spring to see if the noise improves.

    ------------------------------
    Mario Igrec, RPT, MM
    Chief Piano Technician, The Juilliard School
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2020 08:14
    Alan

    I can't speak to that specific spring but weaving cloth through the coils has quieted a similar noise in an Asian piano I serviced that was located under the trap levers. While you have it out a quick coating of VJ-Lube, (or similar paste type lubricant) before reinsertion would not hurt.

    Norman Cantrell





  • 13.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2020 08:29
    Alan
    I've woven bushing cloth through those coil springs and it works!  Kauai's often come preloaded-woven'!!  Like Norm suggested a paste line where the coil spring sits - top & bottom - is also a good idea!  Mario's suggestion of lube on the trap lever leather area, after you've cleaned the old gunk off, also helps. 

    Debbie Cyr
    Registered Piano Technician 
    508-202-2862 cell


    Sent from my iPhone





  • 14.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2020 13:47
    Perhaps holding one coil of the spring with vice grips and pulling down.  Rub some silicone lube on each end of the spring.  The squeak could be coming from where the coil end and is rubbing on the section of coil below/above it.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Callaghan
    Reno NV
    775-287-2140
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2020 13:19

    HI-

    A lot of good suggestions, but I would only add the note that oftentimes these springs are a bit of overkill anyway.  I'm not suggesting to remove them as any regular procedure but on many pianos the entire trapwork mechanism will work beautifully without them.  The best way to prove the spring is a problem is by pulling it anyway, and there is no guarantee that lubrication will be a permanent fix.  If and when they do get removed I always keep them in a special drawer, just in case.  Sometimes the pedal operation can seem a bit more stiff than ideal anyway.  I've never had any questions or concerns of any kind related to removing one of these springs, if that seemed appropriate.  I can't remember removing a damper tray spring specifically, or not, but definitely trapwork springs-  just for the record. 

    best,
    Dennis.  
    --
    Dennis Johnson
    Piano Technician / Music
    Office: 507-786-3587Mobile: 612-599-6437 
    1520 St. Olaf Avenue Northfield, MN 55057






  • 16.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2020 15:51
    Dennis,

    Just to confirm what you wrote - way long ago when I worked at Steinert, the Boston-area Steinway dealer, we had a client who was ready to return a Model "M" because the pedal was too hard on her arthritic foot. I went out to her home, took out the return spring, the pedal worked just fine without it and she happily kept the piano. I don't remember who suggested doing that - but it turned out to be the right solution.


    ------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    P.O. Box 68141
    Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
    510-558-0777
    istein248@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Steinway grand damper tray return spring squeak

    Posted 08-29-2020 17:03
    First, I'd consider whether the damper stop rail is somehow too close to the spring. Then I'd test the strength of the spring, and probably adjust it. 
    I've done on a lot of this. Removal and replacement is quite doable. I usually use my duckbills (the ones I use for damper regulation) and either open them wide so I can grab enough coils to compress the spring enough for removal; or I grab the highest coil I can reach and pull it down and back to get it off the "underlever frame spring ravioli". Then the bottom of the spring comes out first. In reverse to replace.
    My dealings with heavy pedals have brought me to the conclusion that these springs are often elongated (by just pulling on each end) to make sure there is no separation from the leather on each end. If it is too long, the pedal gets pretty heavy pretty quickly. It can work to just remove the spring, but if there is too much friction (various places) the tray won't return all the way. I've found it better to first remove the spring and compress it. I'll try to describe this: I use my duckbills and grab adjacent coils as low as I can with the plier handles down. Then I squeeze and rotate the pliers up. This pushes the upper coil just inside the lower, and even with it. I work that up the entire spring. It's usually about 1-3/4" long at that point. Then I put the spring in place making sure it is properly in the lower recess and on the ravioli. Often the spring will not fully contact at both ends at this point. I use the pliers to see how much too short the spring is, wiggling it up and down. Then I measure the spring length and pull it until it is just that much longer. Reinsert and the spring is as weak as it can be without creating other problems. If the pedal is still too stiff, I see if I can move the pivot point of the trap lever. If you're not aware, current production sustain trap lever has two holes for the pivot. One for smaller pianos and one for the B. If, in the small pianos, one reverses the support blocks and then uses the rear hole, the leverage is what it was before this change was implemented (mid-90's I think). In practice, particularly in older pianos, I just try to move the pivot as far to the front of the piano as the support blocks (and anything in the way) will allow.

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    Douglas Wood
    Seattle WA
    206-935-5797
    ------------------------------