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key side repair

  • 1.  key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2019 12:28
    I have a 90-year old Steinway M with the typical gouges in the sides under the keytops, from long wear. Not overly severe, but I'd like to address them. I am wondering about alternative techniques to do this.

    I have read that some people remove wood from the whole side of the key (to make the sides flat), glue veneer on, then somehow get the key back to the original dimension. I haven't been able to wrap my mind around how to do that successfully, but maybe someone can explain.

    I remember reading about the possibility of cleaning the gouge, filling with epoxy, and sanding. I was thinking of trying that, or possibly some other substance. I wondered if Wood Rebuilder (Lake One) from Allied might work for this application.

    My other thought is to use a sharp chisel, remove just enough wood to make the gouge level to a depth less than or equal to a veneer strip, and glue in a strip of veneer.

    With both these methods, I'd use the existing keytop as the guide for width of the key. The tops are original, and the spacing is nice and even.

    Thoughts?

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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  • 2.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2019 12:39
    Fred, I really like your veneer idea. I keep about 3 different thicknesses on hand for things like this. So you could use whichever thickness is most appropriate for the particular gouge you are repairing. Super easy to cut & trim and as you describe preparing with a sharp chisel first. 
    My 2nd choice would probably be regular epoxy or similar to fill in-much easier to sand/grind/file to level & smooth. 
    I do use & like both Wood Rebuilder & West System Epoxies, but both dry REALLY hard and would not only be "overkill" IMHO, but possibly even counter-productive. (Fatigue spending so much time, possible brittleness in the long run.)
    Im sure others will chime it-my "2 cents".

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    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
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  • 3.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2019 17:52

    Greetings all,

                Here's my 10 cents (factoring for inflation rates):    

    Wood Rebuilder should work OK. I believe it is supposed to be worked as like wood, sanded, drilled, chiseled, etc. Ruth can confirm that if she wishes.

     

    West System Epoxy in pure form, fully cured, is damned hard. No doubt to that. Kinda like a deeply frozen hockey puck. (Yea for the Blues!) Sorry, couldn't help myself,....

    BUT, they have several different fillers one can mix in to alter the consistency, color, and, I believe, also the hardness somewhat. One in particular gives a wood-like look to the cured material. The company has a booklet that explains the use of and differences of their products.

     

    I'd suggest a light sanding to remove finger oil residues so either material you choose to use can get a grip. Apply a hair more thickness than needed. Let cure. Set up a router table with a straight router bit that has a bearing on the end (known as "flush cut" bit). Set the depth (height, depending on viewpoint) so bearing rides along the edge of the keytop. Let bit take off the excess Wood Rebuilder / epoxy and you should be looking good and fairly quickly.

                OR, do as Debbie Cyr suggested, have someone else knock them out for you. Good luck, Fred!

    Alan Hoeckelman, RPT

    SCC Music Tech

     

     






  • 4.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2019 18:01
    Hi all,

    David (Vanderlip) and I have had those to deal with. At our end of the country, we have been using Yvonne Ashmore to do the veneer work. Before that we used various hard wood fillers like West but had them get knocked out. The solution to that was to drill several small holes into the key 1/4" or so to "root" the filler so it couldn't get knocked out. The material sank into the holes in addition to filling out the gap. 

    Kathy





  • 5.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2019 12:46
    I would contact Mike Morvan at Blackstone Valley Piano here in Massachusetts. He does this on a regular basis and could either guide you or do it for you.

    Debbie Cyr
    Registered Piano Technician
    508-202-2862 cell
    Debbiecyr@me.com

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 6.  RE: key side repair

    Posted 06-14-2019 09:19
    We offer very high quality key repairs using species correct and grain orientation correct custom inserts, veneer, putty, and epoxies are not quality repairs in my opinion. I have had to remove/undo too many botched jobs in the past, it's better to just do it properly from the start especially if it's a good piano. Mike Morvan Blackstone Valley Piano

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    Michael Morvan
    Blackstone Valley Piano
    http://www.pianoandorgankeys.com

    Uxbridge MA
    508-340-6443
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  • 7.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2019 09:39
    Hi, Clint,

    I discovered that the new version of the chapter newsletter template is up and running. I played around with it a bit yesterday. It doesn't seem to be any easier than the old version, and some things seem to be harder. Anyway, right now my main hope is to get help with the columns. How do I change column widths? If you look at the Tucson Chapter website now, the left-hand column that starts "    About the Tucson Chapter Piano Technicians Guild" is too wide and it squeezes the right column too much. I'd like to have the right part narrower and less gap between the left and right columns. Other than that, I'm still finding my way around. 

    Are you ready for Tucson? 107 degrees today. We have a friend from PA visiting and he says that 107 degrees with low humidity feels a lot better than 85 degrees with 100% humidity. He's got a point. If you get up early, or stay up late, the temperatures are great. But you'll find out. Or you'll just hole up in the "spa" and never set foot outside. And that's perfectly fine, too.

    Richard West








  • 8.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2019 09:43
    OOPS, Meant to send this to Clint in the home office. But for those of you who take care of chapter newsletters, and who use the PTG template, the new version is out.

    Richard West





  • 9.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2019 10:27
    Thanks, all, for your feedback. I am especially grateful for the feedback about using a hardening substance like epoxy. It confirms my suspicions, but nice to have concrete testimony.

    Michael Morvan's techniques seem like the way to go, though they are "machinery intensive," and outside my capabilities with my set up. 

    This is a valedictory project, the last major rebuild I will do before my retirement at the end of the next school year. The piano is retiring from a practice room and moving into a horn studio, where it will receive far lighter use. (It's also being sent out for refinish, pinblock and strings, and I am replacing all action parts). 

    I will go ahead and do the key side work myself rather than send it to specialists, simply to give myself the paid experience of having delved into it, one of the most valuable perks in CAUT work. The grooves are not that bad, mostly just a couple octaves in the middle, and not too deep, so one layer of thin veneer will do. I plan to use a chisel to remove just enough material, extending just below where key dip will reach. I think I can do a pretty passable job that will serve for many years. 

    I also plan to do keytops, and wanted to have defined edges on the keys as guides to final material removal, so that the spacing doesn't suffer - been there, done that, at least somewhat embarrassed by the results. 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 10.  RE: key side repair

    Posted 06-22-2019 07:50
    You can also replace the keytops and route off more wood (¼") and install an onlay to eliminate the worn section.

    I've salvaged ivories from old uprights by cutting the key off at the back of the tail and a good distance down from the top.
    These onlays are set to be transplanted to a deserving keyboard. I've done one transplant thus far and have two donor sets.


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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 11.  RE: key side repair

    Posted 06-22-2019 13:08
    Fred, Early congratulations on retirement!! and yes absolutely one of the  great benefits of CAUT work as staff  to  revisit on a regular basis  extended piano  maintenance projects and to  tweak as necessary, or to determine if next time to do it a different way.! I am in month 4  of retirement from Boston University/Music  after 33 years and now relocated from Boston to  Burlington Vermont where I am  setting up a small piano tuning/ service  business, strange after all these years to be in a town where ''no one knows your name" ! but I am encouraged by feedback from the local musical community and the tunings are coming in. Enjoy the cycle of your  pre-retirement  academic year ..... martin
    www.snowpianos.com

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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
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  • 12.  RE: key side repair

    Posted 06-13-2019 16:50
    Route out a strip for an inlay or replace the key top and cut off the top 4 to 6 mm and install a new top/onlay and recover.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 13.  RE: key side repair

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2019 21:28
    If anyone else has this problem I would second the idea of sending them to Mike Morvan.  Great work!

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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