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Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

  • 1.  Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2018 13:17
    Hi gang,

    We're starting another school year, this time in a new building with a bunch of new pianos.  Of course we're grappling with the constant annoyance of students bringing their food and drink into the practice rooms and harming the pianos.  So far, we just give them a warning if they're found in violation of the posted rules, and repeat offenders are referred to their adviser or the chair of the department for a talk.  This time around however, we're considering instituting a fine.  Does anyone here have a fine in place?  How much?  Is it effective at preventing or lessening damage to the pianos?  How did you institute it, let people know, what are the exact mechanics of collecting it, etc?  Please let me know.  Especially appreciated if you have actual department documents to share.

    Thanks,
    Zeno

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 2.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2018 15:07
    First of all, congratulations on staying long enough to take up residence in the new building.  Does it have enhanced shop facility as well?  
    To your question, albeit in a circuitous route:
    - are there any surfaces, other than the piano, which food or drink could be placed on?
    - are there any nearby 'common' areas where food could be eaten (ideally with refrigerator or other food storage provisions?  If not, to what lengths would student have to go to get some food or drink?
    - are there windows on the practice room doors that would facilitate observing violations without having to have first entered the room?
    - to what extent does faculty commit violations of these rules (perhaps in either classrooms or studios)?
    - are there restrictions or protocols in the signing out of practice rooms that would encourage students to violate these rules?

    In general, I think fines are likely to be ineffective... something like the tickets UPS trucks get: it's a part of doing business.  Loosing practice privilege, at the time of occurrence or for some period thereafter would probably be much more productive.  Of course, the questions remain: who will enforce?  how consistently?


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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Posted 08-29-2018 15:43
    Well congrats. on the new pianos we modestly bought  here at BU/Music over the summer 2 new Steinway model O,  3 Yamaha 5'8'' GC2 and  5 Yamaha P22. 
    So we have a Starbucks right across the street  on Commonwealth Ave. and the baristas just love the music students coz they are fond of the convoluted concoctions  many of which which are brought right back to their practice room , there is a student lounge  within the main area of the practice modules where the law abiding will  sip their beverage of choice. We have signs on each  of the 125 modules in this practice  area saying both in English and Mandarin No Food or Drink, hows that working out ? Collectively the Production staff, piano techs, stage crew  etc will do  occasional sweeps of the corridors checking every module  for offenders, all it takes is to stand outside the glass door  get their attention and motion them to put the drink on the floor preferably still in the container!  I don't  think fines are  the way to go, maybe signage  about respecting the new instruments and how much the school has invested in them   and getting work study kids who happen not to have any designated tasks at certain times to go around the rooms and   check ...

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    Martin Snow
    Boston MA
    617-543-1030
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2018 15:46
    Hi  David!

    All good questions, some of which have a good answer and some of which don't. Thanks for the opportunity consider the reality alongside the ideal. 

    Curious why you think a fine wouldn't be effective, care to elaborate?

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2018 17:15
    Sure.  couple of reasons come to mind.  
    - it induces the wrong atmosphere. Too 'strong-arm' / coercive.  I'm not saying that there are not those who won't respond to anything else, but 
    a) the fine has to be significant, but, in being so, can generate large scale unrest, not to mention challenges
    b) that mentality ends up winning, by forcing you to resort to a 'blunt-tool' policy, which obviates nuance
    - as per previously stated: enforcement.  Who will be the police?  What discretion will they have?  What CAN work is pier pressure.  If vacating student leaves trash (or evidence of rule violation, the next person in has to either remove the offending materials or ends up 'owning' it.  They can't say "oh, it was there when I arrived".
    - A slippery slope.  Is water in a sealed bottle OK?  Tea for singers?  

    Are there garbage cans in (or right outside the rooms)?  If someone were to act responsibly, putting food items on a table (not on piano), and taking garbage out before leaving, would that work?  (Highly (or even not so highly) aromatic edibles, in a room with minimal air exchange, can be offensive to subsequent users, or those in adjacent rooms.  

    Is there any issue about how long a room can remain vacant before it is available to someone else?  How long (max?) are students allowed to sign out room?

    A drink on a table is OK.  Anything found ON the piano should be cited.  As long as there's some other surface, there's no excuse for that.

    But again, make sure none of the faculty are blatantly violating said rules, setting a truly bad example.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Posted 08-30-2018 08:11
    Zeno! Hi!

    Yes - enforcement of posted rules with consistency is so important and yet elusive. In our case, the practice facility is off-campus, making it harder to spread the responsibility among the staff, most of whom are on campus. Our shop is in said facility, so we, when we are even there, end up being the ones doing the sign-language outside the door, or just knocking and opening up and saying "please don't put your drink/Yogurtland on the piano". In once instance, there was a nasty spill that ended up all over bass strings and soundboard. We closed down the room and placed signage that clearly assigned blame. I suppose this is the cautionary tale model, which hinges on the high demand for rooms (a type of currency?) We try to keep it low-key, as friendly as possible, "help us out" kind-of-thing. But these aren't brand new pianos! That's tough!

    Final analysis: I agree with the no-fines policy. And the due diligence vis-a-vis options (tables, lounges, Faculty!) mentioned by David. Once we got an email from a student who ratted out his teacher to us! Fun! But perhaps enlist/appeal to faculty to remind students about piano preservation?

    Glad to hear you're finally in that new building - cheers!

    Annie

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    Annie Hayden
    USC Thornton School of Music
    Los Angeles CA
    213-821-2365
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2018 10:11

    Hi Zeno, et.al.

     

    That's a tough one!  Both universities I've worked for (Nebraska and U of South Carolina currently) we have a "policy" of no food or drink in the practice rooms, but of course, these are ignored regularly. I don't think a fine would be the best course, but I do think a loss of practice room time would be a better route. Teachers can immediately tell if the student hasn't been practicing and if the student has a performance soon, it could drastically affect their grade.

     

    Again, enforcing this would be a big struggle and hard to monitor. Our rooms are locked and students are issued a key each year. If the student was forced to give his/her key to their teacher for a time, they could still easily ask a friend to let them into a room. Now, if your new building requires their issued university card to scan into a room, that would be easier to trace if they have assigned practice room times.

     

    Our piano major rooms are booked all the time, so time is precious, still the drinks continue. Fortunately, I've not had any spills yet (knocking on my wooden head!) in 13 years being a CAUT.  I hate the drink "rings" left on the finish as they are a pain to fix too.

     

    Perhaps after a few students have been "busted", the word would spread that you are serious and the crime would then diminish or even disappear.

     

    Tell us what you folks do, and congrats on the new building and pianos!  Good times :>)

    Paul




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  • 8.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2018 10:44
    Good ideas here for a problem we all have!  It's the first week of school here.  I always speak to the keyboard students and at the first performance lab meeting which all freshmen are required to attend.  I talk about all the basic rules about no food and drinks on pianos, don't throw piano covers on the floor, how to request tuning and repair, and so on.  Then I make a point of walking past practice rooms often and ask people to take their drinks off the pianos.  They are almost always polite.  I am trying to be positive and polite, not negative and angry.  Though I often am angry about it.

    I am curious about one thing that has been discussed here.  What do you provide in practice rooms for people to set things on?  Small tables, shelf, etc?  I like that idea and want to find a solution that won't cost a fortune.  

    Chris

    Christopher D. Purdy R.P.T.
    Registered Piano Technician
    School of Music, Ohio University
    Rm. 311, Robt. Glidden Hall
    Athens, OH  45701
    Office (740) 593-4230
    Cell    (740) 590-3842
    fax      (740) 593-1429
    http://www.ohiou.edu/music



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  • 9.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Member
    Posted 08-30-2018 11:30
    ​An alternative approach I pondered years ago, would be to enlist the Dean's concurrence and remove the offending student's items from the practice room and drop them off in the Dean's office. The student would then have to make an appointment with the Dean, explain to him/her the necessity of putting food/damaging items on the piano and request their items return. Hopefully word would spread and after a couple of students had to go thru this embarrassment the issue would self regulate. A Dean invests a lot of time trying to secure funding to maintain and replace the musical instrument inventory; money not spent on piano repair can be directed to other areas. 


    Another approach would be to inform students, staff and faculty how expensive an investment a piano represents. Retail price of a Steinway M approaches $70k. To most people a piano probably looks like a giant table and not an expensive, complex musical instrument. With education and reminders, possibly more attention would be paid to piano care by all users. No student would ever think about putting food on a friend's violin but they just don't think about pianos the same way - so educate them.



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    John Ginter
    Plum Piano Restoration
    832-722-3033
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2018 12:54

    John said:
    No student would ever think about putting food on a friend's violin but they just don't think about pianos the same way - so educate them.

    He may be on to something.  Redesign school pianos to eschew any flat surfaces.  Have you ever tried balancing a sandwich or cup of coffee on a violin?  Very challenging.

    I don't agree with getting the administration (Dean, etc.) involved as that, like the fines, is a 'blunt-tool'.  If the other elements i referred to earlier (alternative surfaces, garbage cans conveniently located OUTSIDE the rooms, common area, adequate room ventilation, etc) are in place, the enlightened determinant that should trigger an administrative response is not food in the rooms, but on the piano.  It puts on onus of adult (style) behavior on the student while at once recognizing their human need to have something in their mouths with some regularity.  

    Trying to get them to empathize with the cost/value factors will not work unless it's their own (or maybe) their parents own money at stake.  As such, a refundable deposit against any damage might elicit the desired behavioral change.  It is a fine, of sorts, but the party holding the money is different.  If, as in one of the schools I've maintained, the rooms are assigned to a group of students who are then responsible for working out the practice schedule and maintenance, there could even be some sort of bonus extended for display of good citizenship (i.e. cleaning room, etc.).  

    Zeno - what are your practice room protocols (how assigned, accessed)?

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2018 13:52
    Hi David (and everyone else - nice to hear from you, Annie!)

    I've often thought of installing pigeon spikes on all the pianos, but for some reason have never followed through.


    Seriously though, we're moving into a new building after 7+ years in the wilderness of a dilapidated old physical education building that we've been trying to run a music program in.  We have your basic rules posted in every room - no food and drink, bottle of water on the floor, don't reach inside the piano, clean up after yourself, etc.  We have no fines and although I make presentations to the students and ask all music teachers to mention the policy as well, from time to time we have spills in the pianos.  We haven't had desks or tables in the rooms, but each  new room is equipped with a small desk.  I've installed coat hooks in all the practice rooms.  There are garbage cans located nearby.  There are lounge areas with benches and chairs.  However, on day 1 I found students eating and drinking in the rooms, with their brightly colored starbucks iced drinks on the piano.  

    I've come to the conclusion that instituting a fine will help and not hinder in the ongoing struggle to keep our instruments in good shape.  I'm all in favor of the carrot, but a stick will help.  As for the exact mechanics and logistics, it has yet to be worked out, which is why I'm asking.

    Thanks,
    Zeno

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2018 14:13
    So Z,
    I'm reluctant to persist, as you seem to have already embraced the 'fine' solution, but I think you can do better.  It appears that YOU are the enforcer and, as such, you should be able to articulate and embrace the authority and prerogatives that this function affords.  Along these lines, the first thing you should do is get a badge and a whistle.  The first is mostly to remind you of your ascendant powers; the second is to scare the shit out of them and cause them some embarrassment (though you'd need to stop short of anything that could be construed as emotional abuse, which, at this point, might include even looking at them). 

    When I started at Manhattan School, one of the first things my administrator told me they wanted me to do was to get a handle on student practice in the teaching studios (perpetuated mostly by faculty that wanted to feel that their studios were theirs to control and to grant percs to favored students).  The other rampant practice was the hording and passing down of practice room keys (some rings I appropriated from students foolish enough to leave them out in the open were quite large).  It was not my general nature to be an a-hole, but the anarchy offended my O/C tendencies.   

    Before going to fines, you should feel empowered to photo their I/D cards.  Have a record of those that violate the rules, whereever you decide to set the bar.  Just knowing that there is a record will (I'm guessing) generate significant compliance.  

    Fines are a cop-out, obviating either creativity or sadism.  Have fun.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Posted 08-30-2018 14:19
    Zeno,

    Way back in the sixties, we had a fines system in place as follows:

    First offense was a warning to the student.
    Second offense was a 5% letter downgrade on the student's major instrument.
    Third offense was an additional 15% downgrade.
    Fourth offense was an additional 30% downgrade.
    Fifth was a failing grade for that term.
    Any subsequent offense and the student could no longer use the studios of the department.

    All were recorded and logged by the dean's secretary and given to the instructor as well.  Monetary fines don't work because, more often than not, they are just passed on to Mom and Dad.

    Best,
    Jim



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  • 14.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2018 22:27
    We allow bottled water only, in the practice rooms, and no drinks resting on the piano. It's just a policy, posted in each room. We trust the students to be responsible.   Students have key cards limiting access, and there are cameras in the hallways. Spillage into the piano or any damage is very rare.  I think maintaining an environment of respect for the universities equipment and pianos by trust  is far better than threats of fines. After all, this isn't high school anymore.  It's an adult environment.

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    Bob Maret, RPT
    Orlando FL
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-31-2018 10:53
    Hi Zeno, although we have had this struggle since we received our 29 new pianos about 4 years ago-due to a huge private donor. (Also paid for nearly all our practice rooms to be remodeled.) But I am pleased to report that we are now having tremendous success. 
    First we had two different "campaigns" including plastering these signs all over the practice pianos, (especially the piano majors! 😱😱), On doorways of teaching studios, etc etc. 
    Next, I'm not sure what our admins are telling the students at the beginning of each semester, but holy cow it's REALLY working! Better than I have ever seen at least. Bottom line is that faculty & administrators must be on board with somehow "getting in their faces about this" but without being OVERBOARD. Trying to attach pics of our signs:


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    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-31-2018 11:06
    Thanks Kevin, I like it!  (is that duct tape?!)

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-31-2018 11:15
    Wel...����...I ended up using a big roll of Gorilla tape...����.. I would probably just recommend Gaff tape. Which is another nice tip: Gaff tape is SUPER handy for all kinds of stuff. 
    But the Gorilla tape (super sticky duct tape) worked well for this four us. (I also do a fair amount of Polyester buffing, etc-no I was not concerned about future duct tape removal. 
    Also, I just went around and looked inside all our practice rooms-early in semester but I found ZERO drinks on pianos, which is almost miraculous! -Compared to what we were seeing CONSTANTLY right after the brand new Yamaha U1s were placed. 
    Our building manager has also been a huge help...he is very protective of ALL our stuff-and one of our staff pianists has been awesome to keep an eye out, ask students to remove the drink!! Probably gives them "THE look"!! ������

    Sent from my iPhone



    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2018 10:13
    Zeno

    We got lucky at Oklahoma City University when they built the practice rooms.  Granted they filled every on of the 48 practice rooms that hold verticals with 1098's (not so lucky) they built a shelf permanently attached to the walls that extends over the top of all the verticals.  I have to slide the piano out to raise the lid just to tune.  This full length of the wall shelf gives a place for student's gear, my tool box, etc.  The shelves have a formica top so they are durable.  This was put into the design from the get go so and aftermarket approach may not work but it has been great there.

    ------------------------------
    Norman Cantrell
    Piano Clinic
    Lawton OK
    580-355-5003
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    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2018 10:22
    Norman,

    Do you ever find that, after pulling the piano out from under the shelf to tune it and then pushing it back in, that the piano is noticeably out of tune? Others have observed that happening, even when only moving the upright a couple of inches, due to the four contact points that an upright has with the floor. (Both the floor and the plane of the four wheels would have to be perfectly flat in order to prevent this from happening. Grands, with their tripod arrangement of legs, always have all legs in contact with the floor.)

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2018 10:00
    Alan

    As you may have noticed in my post all of the verticals are Steinway 1098's.  They have their own set of well noted challenges but at their heart they are built like tanks with backposts to rival full sized uprights.  I have not noticed any real shift due to movement of the piano but tuning stability on these beasts is an acquired skill that I'm still honing but after 12 years have a pretty good handle on.

    Norman

    ------------------------------
    Norman Cantrell
    Piano Clinic
    Lawton OK
    580-355-5003
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    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2018 10:46
    Norman, hey I heard a "rumor" (wink) that the company made some real changes recently to the 1098s which has made them much easier to tune. (Something about the string angles & the pressure bar). I'm certain your fleet was before these alleged improvements. But I wonder if anyone out there has had a chance to try these out & if they are indeed any better. 
    Be interesting to see...

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2018 18:25
    Kevin

    Most of the 1098's we have were purchased in 2002/03.  The serial numbers are in the 565*** areas.  We do have some that were in service prior to that and they have the old style pre-change approach to the plate/string assembly.  The plate in the top two sections has a bulge of cast iron between the tuning pins and the pressure bar.  This is covered with a thin strip of basically bushing cloth.  The newer ones eliminated this and use a thicker strip of bellyman style understring felt that is thicker and the plane of the plate is smoother. 

    In the tenor section the old style pressure bar can interfere with the hammer going all the way down on the pins.  The re-design changed the pin spacing higher so this eliminated that problem.  The pins are from the factory a little closer to the plate and help with flagpoling issues. 

    I asked about changes since then while in Lancaster and was told there were a couple but Ben Gac was not sure exactly what they were.  Part of the way they attained the changes that were done for the version I have was that Steinway bought O.S. Kelley and had control of the plate casting.

    As for the practice rooms the floors are all maple plank that floats on a substrate which makes it pretty level.  These were very well designed and costly to build.  When new they were completely soundproof from one room to the next, to the point that each room has its own fire alarm because you couldn't hear the one in the hallway if the door is closed.  Each one also has its own dedicated HVAC feed to eliminate noise filtering down the vents.  They have triple thickness acoustic drywall on the walls for sound elimination.  Some of the gaskets around the doors are starting to leak a little but compared to any other place I have been the practice rooms and teaching studios are about as soundproof as I have ever seen.

    ------------------------------
    Norman Cantrell
    Piano Clinic
    Lawton OK
    580-355-5003
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2018 12:22
    Hi, Alan and all,

    I know what you’re talking about, with uprights changing a bit when moved even a little if the floor is uneven.

    I saw it demonstrated clearly once and it sticks in my mind. A big older tall hefty upright (I forget the brand) was tuned and bass octaves shown to sound fine. Then as we listened to bass octaves, especially at the break area, we could hear octaves go in and out of tune noticeably as the front bass corner leg was lifted. It wasn’t much, possibly 1/4 inch, but it tweaked enough to change what we were hearing.

    Kathy


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  • 24.  RE: Fines for food and drink in practice rooms, studios?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2018 14:43
    I first noticed that tuning change when I was working for a rebuilder/piano mover very early in my career. I had tuned a reconditioned old upright so it would be ready for delivery. When it was put on the moving dollie, I idly played a few chords. AAARGH, Horrible! However, when it was unloaded and set up, it was just fine. Taught me never to tune an upright while on a moving dollie.

    If tuning an upright on a brick floor (lots of them here in NM), I am very much aware of not shifting a caster to another brick (like when pulling it out from the wall so there is room to raise the lid). Been there, done that, wasn't a good experience.

    I also had a habit sometimes when tuning a spinet or console to raise my knee to stabilize the piano (keep it from moving as much while I was moving the tuning hammer, usually to stop noises). While doing this, I checked lower octaves to verify a high treble note. What in the world? I know I didn't leave that octave that way. And when the knee went down, it magically went back into place. All this does apply more to rickety pianos than solidly built ones. 

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "I am only interested in music that is better than it can be played." Schnabel




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