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Timing of tunings

  • 1.  Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-23-2019 12:21
    Hello all. Looking for some insight on the timing of tunings and how it could pertain to the stability in months to follow. I'm curious about how you typically manage and plan for these...do you adjust accordingly for atmosphere conditions as they may be different year to year, season to season...ect...

    Initially I was hired for this spring semester to do a certain number of tunings. After completing the first round on all the pianos, I had been in touch with my main contact to determine when they would want additional tunings done. For the semester, all the general practice room pianos are to receive 2 tunings. The piano major grands 3 tunings...piano faculty grands 3 tunings...concert pianos once a week and most other just one tuning. I've disclosed this in another post, but at the start all the pianos needed pitch correcting with most of the at -25 to -40 cents. I've been pretty happy with how the tunings have held up. Considering the amount of adjustment...they are all still within 1-2 cents of A=440 and most of the tuning stretch and unisons are still mostly holding up. I wasn't sure how much scrutiny my work was going to be held to when taking on this job, but there have been no complaints. Feeling pretty good about things, but I know I've got a lot to learn still and much refinement to do in many areas. 

    Now we're in the last month of the semester and there are about 40-45 tunings left to do. I inquired about the timing of when they would like these tunings done and I have been asked to tune as close to the end of the semester as possible so the tunings may last further into the following months. I have been giving this some thought for awhile and wanted to ask for some insight about the timing of tunings and how that actually pans out for stability.

    From what I understand, when humidity rises wood more quickly takes in that moisture....that is, the wood takes in the moisture more quickly than it looses moisture when the RH drops. Does that sound correct? I'm am wondering how quickly do these changes occur in reality? If I tune a piano for any client, is the instrument just as susceptible to an environmental change if it occurs a week after the tuning or 1-2 months after the tuning? Does this question make sense? I hope so. I was trying to consider what would give the University the most value regarding the timing of the tuning work. Now they may very well have some things going on over the summer months, I'm not sure yet but will be asking about that.

    I also am still trying to solidify my understanding about the "stability" after doing a pitch correction. In some accounts I've heard depending on the amount of pitch correction and the instrument, it may be best to revisit an instrument within a week of correcting the overall tension. Then put more of a fine tuning on it. In other accounts some techs feel the main thing that really is affected is the down bearing on the bridge/soundboard and in one appointment the pitch correction and fine tuning can be done with no problem. I've been fortunate to be able to evaluate what has happened on several pianos after correcting pitch. Some held up better than others, but all in all they've done well...still, there were some pianos that changed again days or weeks after the initial pitch correction. Is this always going to be a case per case basis? Perhaps I will be best to inform clients to keep track of how their pianos sound and schedule their following tunings as needed? It is difficult to know what is going to happen. To have that foresight. Glad to be able to see some of the after effects of my work. Still a little unclear about things though, so if anyone wants to offer some relevant info I thank you kindly. 

    Much appreciated.

    ------------------------------
    Cory Jacobson
    Campbellsport WI
    262-689-6043
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Posted 04-23-2019 13:10
    Cory,

    This is what I explain to customers:

    For years I've told customers when we talk about a recommended tuning schedule:

          "Wood absorbs moisture much quicker than it releases it during drying." 

            [See last paragraph on page 7:  <http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2002/willi02b.pdf>]



    ------------------------------
    David Bauguess
    Grand Junction CO
    970-257-1750
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-23-2019 13:24
    My take is that any tuning I do during the last couple months of the semester is work thrown away - unless the piano is critical for some particular reason/event/etc. In my situation, tunings done January/February will almost always last through the end of the spring semester, and we have next to nothing going on in the summer. End of summer, everything will go haywire.

    The fall semester is a completely different picture. 

    My RH data shows this very clearly (five year chart attached). Other parts of the country will have their own norms. Here, RH jumps in July, so that all pianos are unusably sharp by the beginning of fall semester - hence I tune every piano (with a little help) in the six weeks leading up to first day of classes. 

    That will hold pretty well for a month, possibly more. Then RH plummets (varies a bit year to year exactly when and how much), so essentially everything will need two tunings later in fall semester as they gradually dry out and go flat (priorities mean some get more attention than others).

    So my general policy is to front load tuning into fall semester, and coast with tuning in spring, spending most of my time doing other maintenance - I'll touch up unisons and the like, but not do too many top to bottom full tunings. Instead, I'll do regulation, voicing, etc.

    Yes, pianos absorb moisture and go sharp faster than they lose moisture and go flat. Some models do this is a more dramatic way than others, especially above the tenor break and perhaps above the treble break as well - CRAZY octaves and unisons. So touch up that concentrates there can be a way to make your work go further. 


    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." Twain






  • 4.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 07:11

    Fred,

     

    In reading your last paragraph, I thought of a sponge.  You can get it wet very quickly, but it takes a long time for it to dry out!

     

    Paul

     






  • 5.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 08:48

    Fred's advice is spot-on,at least for me here in Cleveland, where our RH/temp, and my schedule, is much the same as his. Another consideration is to be aware when the Physical Plant people  turn on or turn off the heat and A/C. Our university turns on heat at a certain time in the fall, and it stays on whether it gets hot outside or not, which can happen in Cleveland. Same thing, reversed, in the spring. I have had to advocate vociferously for moisture to be added  to the heat in the fall, since when our building was built 30  years ago the engineers turned off the humidity to the building when complaints were received that the air 'smelled funny'. Meanwhile the dryness wreaked havoc on our instruments and health etc. A few years ago they finally fixed it, smell notwithstanding, and the RH/Temp is far more stable. I would make sure I knew the  history and circumstances of the HVAC system in your building, and make friends with the engineers who service  it.


    Stephen Kabat

    Keyboard/Instrument Technician

    Cleveland State University

    216/687-5037






  • 6.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 12:40
    Hi Stephen, YES. What you describe sounds extremely close to our situation. Original part built in 50s, 2 or 3 updates/remodels but no real improvement to the HVAC systems. There are essentially 3 ginormous units "controlling" the temps in our multi-level building. The big addition in the 80s did employ slightly better technology than the original building but these are all "COBBLED" together it seems. A few years ago we had a huge flood-pipe burst on our 2nd floor and the water was running down & running onto our piano major grand pianos. I happened to be in the building -about 10:30 pm...(Providence??!! ) and began throwing plastic covers over them. (And we kept putting big plastic trash barrels under the leak. Used about all we could find in the building.) Soon thereafter the plumbers finally hobbled onto the scene & FINALLY found a valve somewhere that stopped the huge GUSHER. Only very slight damage to a coupe of pianos-almost miraculous!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 17:23

    Fred,

    thank you for this. This would be New Mexico, right? We have the same kind of humidity pattern here in Jakobstad, Finland, but the highs are even more crazy than that -- august has normally an average RH of +80%.

    I've come to much the same conclusions as you have, but sometimes I use the late tunings in Spring just to lower the pitch, in preparation for the Fall madness. Some models, especially the older Yamaha G series, will rise from 442'ish to close to 450 in august. If i know the piano won't be used from the end of May and onwards, I often lower those models in order to make life easier in the Fall.

    There's a physical aspect to it, too. Because of the heavy RH fluctuations, the "traffic" at the bridge pins (May 442 = August 450 = January 436) rocks the bridge pins loose in time, producing tons of false beating strings. The late tunings in May seem to help prolonging the life cycle of the rear termination points.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Wingren, RPT
    Jakobstad, Finland
    0035844-5288048
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 20:43
      |   view attached
    The false beats have been most challenging to tune or just to listen to in general. I haven't addressed bridge pins with CA yet in my career, so I've been trying to gather as much insight about the best treatment and method for this undesireable condition. Here's a photo of a bridge section I've examined. There are visible gaps around the pins and some small splitting in the wood bridge cap as well. Interesting to consider your point about the humidity swelling and raising of pitch and about how the amount the tuning, and pulling those strings may effect the bridge pins.

    ------------------------------
    Cory Jacobson
    Campbellsport WI
    262-689-6043
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 10:05
    You'll have just about as much luck trying to time the stock market.  If you live in an area that is subject to swings install a DC system.  Institutions that use HVAC systems (especially older ones) make things even worse with switches from AC to heat.  It's a crapshoot at best.  

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 10:19
    In some parts of the country, environmental changes may be pretty random, or there may not be significant changes. For most of the US, though, I believe there are significant patterns that are worthwhile noting, documenting, and adapting to. The upper midwest and Canada in particular have extra dry winters and extra humid summers. The chart I attached to a previous post is obviously a case in point, covering five years. I did ten years in chart form, and the five years following look exactly the same, very little variation. 

    Within any given week, month, couple months, there will be fluctuations, but the large swings are very predictable, and if you don't know what they are, you will waste a lot of time.

    Whole building humidity control can help tremendously - if it is well calibrated and well-maintained (it takes someone in physical plant to monitor conditions and change settings on a very regular basis). Individual units installed in pianos are somewhat effective, but don't really address the big swings. In my own experience, I don't find it worthwhile to have full systems that add humidity, because the upkeep (just filling with water) takes more time than the results would merit. I have experimented with under and over cover, and found very little to no improvement. 

    I've only done full systems on grands. Uprights are probably better, but again, there is a big time and energy investment in keeping a fleet of 50 - 100 pianos watered. Access alone is a big headache, not to mention people unplugging systems. So I do have many humidistats and heating rods installed, and I do go around to all those rooms in June to see that they are plugged in (the time they matter is June - Sept). They help some, reduce the 25-40¢ pitch adjustment to maybe 15-25¢. A little less work, but it still needs to be done.






  • 11.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 12:15
    Great topic! I share David's sentiment especially here in our antiquated Music Building. (Part of it built in the 50s, another huge addition (and lousy "update"....particularly the HVAC aspect of it.) And Fred's advice is spot on. 
    We have 100 pianos. 
    The only area of the building that has really decent climate control is our one recital hall. The rest is insanely erratic. Surprising for West Texas. Humidity does spike in a major way during our rainy season & then AGAIN when they crank up the chiller systems to keep things cool. Humidity stays pretty high causing the 25 to 40 cents sharp issues Fred describes. 
    We hire one contract tech to help me whip things into shape just before the fall semester begins and then again in January after the heaters have been REALLY cranking for a few months and everyone expects the pianos to all have a fresh & wonderful tuning since there has obviously been a "LONG BREAK". 
    Anyway, we too have utilized humidity control systems-they help tremendously with piano faculty & our staff pianists' pianos, and a few others-basically those who actually care! But the ones who just can't/WON'T keep them filled, they are little help (except the dehumidifier part helps some during the humid months) 

    What I've been experimenting with recently is just unplugging the humidifier part only on the ones with full systems (some with undercovers which really is a must on grands you are really trying to control)-this seems to be working much better since at least there is a big talnk of water inside/under the piano gradually releasing a bit of humidity, but the dehumidifier ensures never too much. I just fill these as full as I can when I tune them. The "jury is still out" on this idea, but it seems way better than the FREQUENT Tuning requests from those not caring enough to water their piano.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 17:31

    Fred, quote: "I have experimented with under and over cover, and found very little to no improvement. I've only done full systems on grands. Uprights are probably better, but again, there is a big time and energy investment in keeping a fleet of 50 - 100 pianos watered."

    Same thing here with the undercovers, little or no difference. And with a hefty HVAC, the moist microclimate is swept away in no time during Winter.

    The systems work extremely well in uprights, though, because of the encapsulation. If there's not too many to make maintenance burdensome, I highly recommend them for adding moisture during the dry season.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Wingren, RPT
    Jakobstad, Finland
    0035844-5288048
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 20:36
    Recently the approach of adding only the DC heating bar with the humidity sensor was recommended to me. This is said to lower the humidity inside the piano for the humid season. No extra maintenance in adding water...any comments about that suggestion? I also have encountered some upright pianos with large sacks of silca I am assuming to serve the same purpose.

    ------------------------------
    Cory Jacobson
    Campbellsport WI
    262-689-6043
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 21:36
      |   view attached

    Greetings all,

                Re: The timing of tunings, etc.: Tunings for me here in the great State of Misery, er, Missouri, we get that back & forth, humidity up and down, on a daily or weekly fashion. I do notice that definite "switch-over" by the Maintenance Dept. form Heating to Cooling in the mid to late Spring. Whatever stability I had going just flies out the window, as it were. From then, on into summer the humidity levels are just constantly elevated. With complete DC systems installed the plain strings just above the last wrapped ones all shift sharp, tapering as I go up the scale. Easily 10 to 15 cents worth at the worst. Usually happens as we near time for Juries, and the pianos sound "off". Bummer!

                My tactic to combat this: I added a second 50 watt heater bar some 4 to 5" above the original. I labeled its plug as "Upper" and plugged it in with a 3 into 1 tap like grand installs get done with 2 or more heaters. See attached picture.

                The "Timing" aspect: Catching just when Maintenance does the switchover is not easy unless they willingly communicate with you. I have yet to receive any warnings. Oh, well,.... We are about at that "time". In November, I make sure to unplug all of them, and there's not much shift to be noticed. Not everyone may find this useful, and YMMV. As long as the Humidistat is in control, things won't get too out of hand. A 35 watt rod may work best in your region. It is not enough for my situation. Good luck!






  • 15.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2019 22:36
    Cory, this is what we have done with our regular practice pianos. It's super helpful overall and is probably THE best option when there is no one who would be able to keep water tanks filled. (Also, a huge budget challenge on practice pianos).

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Posted 04-25-2019 00:10
    Alan,
    I've noticed that when a rod is placed near the bass bridge, it dries the cap and splits are more apt to occur.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Timing of tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2019 05:18
    Fred,
    My personal experience confirms your observations. Through my 11 years in the Boston area, there was a very steady pattern of piano pitch rising and dropping. Once the heating systems went on in the fall (ca. Oct-Nov) piano pitch would drop by anywhere between 10 and 25 cents - depending on how the thermostats were set and how well the homes or buildings were insulated. In the spring - once the heating went off - there would be a rise in pitch - not quite as dramatic as the fall drop. Then in July/August, the hot/humid days of summer would come (occasionally the humidity rising to 80 or 90%) , and my phone would start ringing off the wall with the usual complaint of "my bass is out of tune". The truth was, the bass was pretty close - the tenor and midrange would go way sharp, sometimes to the point that the octaves across the bass break would turn into 9ths. Pianists typically perceive this as the bass being out of tune. 
    Then I moved to the San Francisco Bay Area (where David Love lives and works, btw) for 19 years. There the humidity swings weren't quite as sharp, but they were - as David writes - unpredictable, dry warm days alternating with foggy/humid mornings and rainy winters alternating with dry ones, with the start and end of each season being unpredictable from year to year (what with the various El Ninos and La Ninas that often determine the rainfall or lack of it). Also, the Bay Area is the land of the mini-climate - when we first started exploring the area for home purchase, the first question people asked was "what kind of weather do you like?" It seems that a drive of 10 miles would get you into a different climate patch, based on proximity to water, surrounding topography and who knows what else. Plus, home (and building) insulation in the Bay Area leaves a lot to be desired, this makes even minor humidity swings more significant...  
    Conclusion? To develop any kind of useful tuning schedule, (or to decide whether or not such a schedule would be useful) one needs to become familiar with the local weather patterns, and other relevant factors that have been mentioned - insulation, Heat/AC use, etc.

    My experience with DC systems in institutional settings has been rather discouraging. While a staff technician on a regular schedule can - with some effort - stay on top of keeping them watered and plugged in, a contract technician on an intermittent work schedule could find them more trouble than they are worth for reasons that have already been detailed elsewhere. 


    ------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    P.O. Box 68141
    Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
    510-558-0777
    istein248@gmail.com
    ------------------------------