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New piano selection

  • 1.  New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-03-2019 19:19
    Piano faculty and I will be traveling to New York to select a B. I would appreciate any advice regarding this process.

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    Lucy Urlacher
    Columbia MO
    573-673-1006
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  • 2.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-04-2019 07:04

    We've done this twice now in the past 3 years.  You can email Dr Joe Rackers, head of our piano department with your questions: jrackers@mozart.sc.edu.

     

    Have fun!

     

    Paul

     






  • 3.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-04-2019 12:24

    I'm surprised others have not chimed in!
    Perhaps others will...especially after this comment. (Stir "the pot" just a bit. Wink wink)
    One thing that I learned at Texas Tech from Dan McSpadden (my predecessor there) and Dr Lora Deahl (piano professor there) was to do a little string plucking. After all the normal playing, listening, probably looking at the action, etc, etc...
    When trying to narrow down the decision between two or possibly 3 pianos....decide which notes on each piano you are going to compare, then time how long the best string of the said notes sustains. This can sometimes help clarify which piano MAY have a slight edge on the other. 

    One reason is because this simple test is focused on the sustain the soundboard is capable of..and essentially eliminates the voicing aspect of the hammers, which can be changed/worked with etc. 
    Hope this one thing will help just a bit. 

    Kevin 



    ------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Temple, Texas
    806-778-3962
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  • 4.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-04-2019 12:35
    I want to clarify one thing. This test is primarily for the treble/top half of the piano. Perhaps all the Cs from C8 down to say C5 or maybe C4.

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Temple, Texas
    806-778-3962
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  • 5.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 12:45
    I have traveled with faculty twice for selections at Steinway. The first time we were picking out six B's and one D. If I remember correctly there were about eight B's to choose from. I arranged to arrived at the factory about two hours before the faculty to have some quality time with the pianos. As Kevin mentioned and I second, check for sustain in the treble. The touch/feel of the action is of course important. It is very likely the touch will be different between those they have available for selection. Overall voice of the instrument is critical. Take your tuning lever along and try out some notes. You may find difference in ease of tuning. Have a good look at quality of construction with regard to the belly system and framework. Make your pick and see if the faculty agrees. It's fun!

    When the faculty arrived, I asked that they not look at the serial number of the piano they liked. After the faculty tried out the pianos they took a break. With assistance from the crew at the factory we moved the pianos into different positions. After the break they went back to finding their favorite instrument. Since we were purchasing six, the faculty then picked their favorite by seniority. The process worked well.

    We picked the D the next day. The faculty tried out the selection first and then took a break while I had my time with the pianos. We switched the positions of the pianos before they returned. Again, this process worked well. Several years later, we did the same on my second trip to the factory to select one D.

    ------------------------------
    [Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
    [Piano Technician]
    [dmckech@ithaca.edu]
    [Home 607.277.7112]
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 14:12
    Hi-

    The previous comments all included great advice and I agree.  For it's worth, the only suggestion I would add is don't bother packing to bring any other tools along with you.  A tuning lever and mute is fine, but don't waste your time hauling any voicing or regulation tools because you won't be allowed to use them.  I understand and it makes sense, but that policy it not as it used to be.  Eric Diehl is the prep technician for the showroom, He will be very helpful and accommodating, and will personally take care of anything you want done regarding the pianos. 

    best of luck, and have fun!
    d.  

    --
    Dennis Johnson
    Piano Technician / Music
    Office: 507-786-3587Mobile: 612-599-6437 
    1520 St. Olaf Avenue Northfield, MN 55057






  • 7.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 10:35

    Others have given you excellent advice. Here's one bit that works for me. Take post it pads in four colors and rate the pianos three colors, for example blue=bad, yellow=ok, green=great. If music desks are on pianos, put the post its on the plate where you can easily see it but not over the serial number.

    when the faculty make their selections, use the fourth color to mark them, say red. Be prepared for second and third passes and faculty changing their mind. At the end, take photos of model/serial numbers. I also like to also take a wide angle picture of the piano to remember where it was in the room.

    Enjoy the discrepanicies between their and your assessments. It's a great learning experience.

    Be sure to remove your post its!




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    Mario Igrec, RPT
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
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  • 8.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2019 11:12
    I suggest you inspect the V-bar for shape and hardness. Don't accept any with hard V-bars. You can test with a small bastard file by filing the area of the V-bar that is above note 88 or under the treble strut. If the file sounds/feels like two files rubbing together, it is hard. It should sound/feel like the file cuts smoothly.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 9.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2019 11:47
    Ed, please be realistic about what they would let you do or is appropriate to do in the selection showroom.

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    Mario Igrec, RPT, MM
    Chief Piano Technician, The Juilliard School
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
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  • 10.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2019 14:03
    Ed,
    I think what you suggest is an exercise in futility and would be an extraordinary waste of resources. That is, going about purchasing a brand new instrument with the Ed McMorrow criteria in mind, flying people to the selection room and spending retail (institutional) new price. If instruments are built to your criteria - in this case a soft capo sharpened to a point so that the strings press into it - I'd be interested to hear about it. Since they are not, at least to the best of my knowledge, anyone wanting to meet your standard would be better served to purchase a used instrument and have it rebuilt.

    And if it were rebuilt entirely to the various Ed McMorrow criteria, it should have McMorrow on the fallboard, not the original manufacturer, to make clear whose design is being followed.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2019 20:07
    When I published my book; The Educated Piano, Steinway company bought seven copies. When I ran into Michael Mohr at the next convention he said; "after I read your part on the capo bar I went and pulled all the different specifications we have had for Capo bars over the years. I found one exactly like you are advocating."

    If we Technicians are to represent our clients best interests it behooves us to set standards. Those of you who attempt to marginalize me by posturing my position as a lone wolf in the wilderness only betray your own lack of knowledge, imagination and unprofessional attitude. It does not look good on any of you. If you disrespect me by dismissing what I say without testing yourself you show a grandly incompetent attitude towards your fellow professionals.

    Technicians are far better judges of how pianos respond to use over time than any manufacturer can be. I am as well situated in this position as anyone else in the world that I know of that digs as deep into pianos over as long a time as I have to judge serviceability.

    If the test I proposed for V-bar hardness was objected to by a seller of a piano, that should tell you something right there. If you are implying my wanting to test like this is damaging to the piano, you are wrong.

    Are you aware Kawai has done testing on V-bar shape and many of their new pianos have V-bars much like I have been advocating since the late 1970's? Are you aware I still service the first piano I shaped the V-bar to a V-shape and it has been used regularly for over forty years with no problems yet?

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2019 13:05
    Ed,
    My post was aimed at the attitude that one’s own opinion is the only one with any validity, which appears to be your attitude. I happen to think several of your ideas have merit and that others don’t, or that, at any rate, they are unproven. Each of us bases our opinions on our own experience. Which is right?

    When it comes to capo terminations, there are a variety of positions on just how hard and how sharp the V should be, and a variety of implementations by manufacturers. That’s the reality in the marketplace. I will ask your directly, as I did indirectly in my last post, does any manufacturer meet your criteria? To be clear, I am talking about what you have described repeatedly: soft (unhardened) and filed to as sharp a point as is possible, so that the strings settle into that metal. Can you name a manufacturer that does that?

    If not, then why answer this query about selecting a Steinway in the Steinway showroom the way you did? As I said (knowing that Steinway, for one, doesn’t do it that way), if anyone wants that spec, the thing to do is to have a used instrument remanufactured. (One could purchase a new one and have the top sections restrung after having the capo filed, but why go to that extra expense?)

    There are lots of very strongly held opinions in our field, having to do with soundboards (compression vs. rib crowned, for instance), hammers (lacquered vs. unlacquered, hard vs. soft pressed), appropriate key weighting and action ratios, felt vs. hard action bushings, cross strung vs. straight strung, positive down bearing vs. negative down bearing vs zero down bearing, pinned bridges vs. bridge agraffes of one or another design, drier vs. wetter damping: name the factor, and there are passionately held positions.

    As far as I am concerned, this is a good thing. It means the piano industry and the piano technician profession are not completely ossified. I think variety is a good thing, and as part of that philosophy I have used my position as head piano technician to assemble a set of piano major grands that includes two Shigeru Kawai SK-2s, a Schimmel C189, a Mason & Hamlin BB, a Steinway O, a Steinway M, and a Yamaha C2. That means our piano students have the opportunity to experience a fairly broad range of action response, tone color, etc. As a pianist, that is an opportunity I value greatly, as it allows one to grow artistically. Playing on a different instrument opens up different possibilities of expression, and often when I sit at an unfamiliar piano, I suddenly hear a piece in a new light.

    That’s my firmly held opinion: there are many possibilities, and none that is the only and best one. I have no problem if others disagree with me.
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler




  • 13.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 00:08
    Thanks for responding Fred. I read your post as waffle and weasel. I clearly said that Kawai has tested V-bar configurations.  And their report I read, and the two recent Kawai pianos I have tested pass my field tests with a grade A. It is you who are out of touch with this issue and I resent your capricious and disrespectful attitude towards my work.

    Technicians should represent their clients interests. If an institution is choosing a piano and their Technician representative is not willing to use the current state of the art criteria to help guide them, why bother taking a technician in the first place?

    CAUT technicians have to be stewards of the expenses of piano ownership. If I was advising a school of music about choosing or continuing to employ a technician I would urge them to scrutinize professional attitudes as part of the process. CAUT's who work for state institutions owe it to the taxpayers to always think of providing the most piano for the bucks!

    Also if we expect our profession to thrive at all, technicians need to step up their game in helping those people who value fine pianos. The manufacturers do not have the experience field technicians gain about how well certain configurations endure serious use. We need to arm our customers with the best advice available. Not some mealy-mouthed, non-deterministic "romantic" notions about how a piano functions.

    Yep, there is still "magic" that we don't completely control, but compared to prior decades many of the chronic use problems seen in pianos do not need to occur.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 07:11
    Sorry Ed, I have to respectfully disagree. Every thing you say is right, however. Steinway, even having 7 copies of your book, still builds the way they want. They build the Steinway. Harley Davidson could build a quieter bike that could possibly be faster but the buyers expect "potato potato" and wouldn't buy it otherwise.

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 22:25
    Thanks Larry for responding. Of course the owners of Steinway can build a Steinway piano any way they want. And of course I can point out how they used to do it. I can point out how it can be better. I can communicate to the public and my peers what I have found out in my research.  I can suggest to my peers how we should approach being professionals. What is not to like about that?

    Why should a technician go to the selection room to assist if they don't inspect the merchandise? A tech who doesn't inspect could be held liable for any flaws that materialize that they should have seen/known about if they had behaved professionally.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 09:43
    Ed,
    I'm glad you have found some sort of vindication in what Kawai does. Since that is perhaps the one manufacturer that meets your approval (at least in that respect), perhaps you might have suggested purchasing a Kawai rather than a Steinway, as opposed to making your ludicrous suggestion about taking a file into the selection room and scraping capos.

    You appear to be certain you have all the answers. Me, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. One thing I do know is that in recent years I have played on pianos made by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Steingraeber, Sauter, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Schimmel, Paul McNulty, Érard, Broadwood, Tom and Barbara Wolf and many others, all of which I have found, as a pianist, to be extraordinary and remarkably expressive instruments with much to offer. This based on the experience of playing them, which is what my customers do. (I also played on many by many of those makers I was far less fond of, though in the majority of those cases it was the prep that was lacking).

    I have found repeatedly that instruments that fail to meet various well known specifications, as, for instance, soundboard crown and down bearing, show no signs of defect. So I have come to be skeptical of any assertion that there are any absolutes in our profession. If that upsets you and makes you call me a waffler and a weasel, so be it, doesn't bother me in the least.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." Mompou






  • 17.  RE: New piano selection

    Posted 12-09-2019 10:08
    This exchange has ceased being informative.
    Laurence Libin
     
     
    Ed,I'm glad you have found some sort of vindication in what Kawai does. Since that is perhaps the one manufacturer that meets your approval (at...
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    Re: New piano selection
    Reply to Group Reply to Sender
    Dec 9, 2019 9:43 AM
    Fred Sturm
    Ed,
    I'm glad you have found some sort of vindication in what Kawai does. Since that is perhaps the one manufacturer that meets your approval (at least in that respect), perhaps you might have suggested purchasing a Kawai rather than a Steinway, as opposed to making your ludicrous suggestion about taking a file into the selection room and scraping capos.
     
    You appear to be certain you have all the answers. Me, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. One thing I do know is that in recent years I have played on pianos made by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Steingraeber, Sauter, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Schimmel, Paul McNulty, Érard, Broadwood, Tom and Barbara Wolf and many others, all of which I have found, as a pianist, to be extraordinary and remarkably expressive instruments with much to offer. This based on the experience of playing them, which is what my customers do. (I also played on many by many of those makers I was far less fond of, though in the majority of those cases it was the prep that was lacking).
     
    I have found repeatedly that instruments that fail to meet various well known specifications, as, for instance, soundboard crown and down bearing, show no signs of defect. So I have come to be skeptical of any assertion that there are any absolutes in our profession. If that upsets you and makes you call me a waffler and a weasel, so be it, doesn't bother me in the least.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." Mompou
     


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    Original Message------

    Ed,
    I'm glad you have found some sort of vindication in what Kawai does. Since that is perhaps the one manufacturer that meets your approval (at least in that respect), perhaps you might have suggested purchasing a Kawai rather than a Steinway, as opposed to making your ludicrous suggestion about taking a file into the selection room and scraping capos.

    You appear to be certain you have all the answers. Me, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. One thing I do know is that in recent years I have played on pianos made by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Steingraeber, Sauter, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Schimmel, Paul McNulty, Érard, Broadwood, Tom and Barbara Wolf and many others, all of which I have found, as a pianist, to be extraordinary and remarkably expressive instruments with much to offer. This based on the experience of playing them, which is what my customers do. (I also played on many by many of those makers I was far less fond of, though in the majority of those cases it was the prep that was lacking).

    I have found repeatedly that instruments that fail to meet various well known specifications, as, for instance, soundboard crown and down bearing, show no signs of defect. So I have come to be skeptical of any assertion that there are any absolutes in our profession. If that upsets you and makes you call me a waffler and a weasel, so be it, doesn't bother me in the least.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." Mompou





  • 18.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 10:43
    Professionalism carries a duty to derive and use a deterministic framework of making judgements. That is what I am doing. If that bothers some of you, I am profoundly sorry your sensibilities seem to be unable to accept that. Pianos are machines, pianos are instruments; one must understand the cultural relevance of the instrument and the deterministic terms of the machine.

    What have any of my fine critics done to advance that? Why do you have such difficulties grasping how technicians need to work to remain relevant?

    It is my observation that the weakest part of current piano technology is a grasp of what the business is.

    And Fred, since I have had a few brief moments to observe how you assess a particular piano and I have heard you play some music, I wonder if you understand how a piano is used by some pianists at the upper ends of the dynamic spectrum. Granted I witnessed mere minutes of your playing and you play quite lovely, but not thrillingly. There is certainly an audience for lovely alone, but the history of pianism shows there is more to be had.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2019 11:02
    I’m going to have to send the two of you to time out if you can’t play nice.

    The rest of us don’t want to witness your fight so please message each other directly.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 20.  RE: New piano selection

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-11-2019 23:36
    Fred, There is nothing ludicrous at all with testing a V-bar for hardness by using a small file to touch a portion of the V-bar that is never used to support strings. It is in fact a very practical test that all technicians who seek to represent their clients best interests should learn to use. The evidence now gathered shows this clearly.

    And there is nothing any more absurd about performing the test at the Steinway selection room than any other location a piano for sale is presented. If a seller objects, what have they got to hide?

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------