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Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

  • 1.  Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-19-2020 15:46
    I've always ass-u-me d that using the new Steinway Action frames with broached hangers would guarantee ideal geometry.   I recently replaced an L frame and checked the action spread.  It was 110.0mm with genuine current NY Steinway parts.   I had and older action frame with broached hangers.  I put the same parts on that and the spread was 112.5mm.  The distance between the wip and hammer hanger holes was 2mm wider on the older frame.    I'll shim the wippen rail to widen the spread, then have the piano owner,  named Sam, play it again.

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Posted 02-19-2020 17:46
    Which is why I'll be fitting a new WNG Top Action Frame and Parts on a new raw Kluge keyframe on a D in my possession.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 3.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-19-2020 22:04
    Oooh Jon,

    It's going to be a Steinwas!  👍😁👍

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 4.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Posted 02-20-2020 11:00
    without the usual Steinweighs

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 5.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2020 18:44


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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 6.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Posted 02-20-2020 20:14
    Just goes to show you, CNC is only as trustworthy as your setup calibration, and overall calibration can and does shift...or flange offsets from run to run, have setup problems...or the machine operators boxer's were too tight that day...

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 7.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 13:20
    David,
    How will you shim the wippen rail? Won’t you have to melt the solder and re-position the rail? Or I’m missing something?

    Joe Wiencek




  • 8.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 13:42
    Opening the spread by shim material in between wip flange and rail.  At this point the client is in favor of getting a new frame from Steinway IFFFFF! they can make it right.

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 9.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Posted 02-21-2020 13:56
    By inserting a narrow strip sand paper between the rail and flange, above the screw; you will increase the spread. For this I use a heavy J weight 320 grit sandpaper from Klingspor. If you get the pressure sensitive variety, you can stick two pieces together and cut the strips for even thicker shims.

    You don't have to remove all the reps, just loosen them. Remove the end ones and a center one in each section and the sandpaper strip with slip over the repetition rail and down to rest on the screw shanks.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 10.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 14:23
    Another approach to shimming out the wippen flanges for a greater spread dimension is to insert a piece of piano wire in the same location as Jon describes. On a Steinway-style action rail, the wire nestles in one of the troughs of the cloverleaf profile. One advantage of using wire is that it can be tapered if needed (in situations in which the spread is both wrong AND inconsistent!).

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 11.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 15:23
    Ah, ok. Interesting methods. And if one needed less spread? 

    Joe Wiencek





  • 12.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Posted 02-21-2020 16:08
    Less spread could be accomplished by shimming below the screw line. I have tapered sandpaper (usually double-thickness) when the situation called for it.
    You''ll be surprised at how many nonparallel rails are out there. I use a large pair of dividers to measure.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 13.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 16:35
    David,

    Sooo, do mean to say that SS sent you a genuine defective part?  One in which their own genuine parts will not work properly without serious modification?

    TIC

    Edit: I deleted what might be considered by some as inflammatory. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 14.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 18:00
    Hi Joe,

    The old style Steinway hangers had oversize square holes.  The brass covered rails were positioned in the holes with jigs and soldered in place.  This left lot's of room for errors.   Steinway changed broaching the holes in the hangers so that they are the exact shape of the rail cross section.   Not sure when the started this maybe a couple of decades ago.  Broaching is an interesting machining technique that allows one to make a square hole out of a round hole or any other shape you might want.   Watch this video of making a square broach to learn more:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYI1slVGziU

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 15.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 18:27
    David,

    Seriously cool. I always wondered just how that was accomplished. Thanks for sharing it. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 16.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Posted 02-21-2020 18:47
    There were two versions of the newer broached holes.  First they tightened up the broach to fit the rail shape closer to the dimension and shape of the rails... maybe, as you say a couple of decades ago. This first, tighter broach version, still had to have the rails center pin dimensions adjusted before soldering as the tighter broaches still allowed flex room for the rails to move and pivot in the broach a little. However the new version of the really tightly fit broaches is only somewhere 5-8 year ago department. The idea with the really tight broaches they now sell, was to achieve two things at the same time...1- a tight capillary fit broach that a sweat solder using non-lead solder could be used, 2- position the rails precisely, with not room for error.  They are so tight, that the brackets have to be  convinced onto the rails, which twist this way and that. 

    I had assumed that the dimensional part had been achieved, and in fact an S&S engineer had told me that it took them 1-1/2 yrs to get the CNC jig working correctly. Looks like, though, we are back to the same old inaccuracy Steinway is known for. The whole system is completely insane, as the design requirements  continually are required to perform beyond the the limits of the materials...whateveahh...

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 17.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Member
    Posted 02-27-2020 17:50
    At the 2017 convention in St. Louis I taught a class on my observations of Steinway action frames based on the several hundred action frames I have rebuilt over the years. I showed pictures of 15 of the frames I that I had worked on the previous few months. The pictures ranged from serial number 20415 (a really weird frame) to serial number 538593. I concentrated on the web dimensions and the hole shape. Some things I have learned over the years are:At the 2017 convention in St. Louis I taught a class on my observations of Steinway action frames based on the several hundred action frames I have rebuilt over the years. I showed pictures of 15 of the frames I that I had worked on the previous few months. The pictures ranged from serial number 20415 (a really weird frame) to serial number 538593. I concentrated on the web dimensions and the hole shape. Some things I have learned over the years are:

    There have been many variations in hole shapes and web dimensions of the action brackets.

    That rolling the wippen rail will make a much greater change in the spread than in the vertical height differential between the hammer and wippen center pin. Rolling the hammer rail will make a much greater change in the differential than the spread. 

    You can accomplish the same result as rolling the rail by shimming the top or bottom of the wippen flanges or the front and back of the hammer flanges.

    Most of the older Steinway frames have a noticeable range in action spread and differential over the length of the frame.

    There is a very noticeable change in the rail positions between serail number 62480 and a bracket I got from Steinway in 2017 however the spread appeared not to have changed markedly.

    When replacing a rail using the broached action brackets it can require some grinding of the holes if the customer wants some spread or differential that is different from what the bracket allows. The broached holes do allow some small, but not much, variation. 

    With broached holes it is impossible to assemble a frame from scratch if the rails have any twist without grinding out the holes to accommodate the twist. With the old large cast hole there is usually room so that you can get the center pin location you want with out removing much metal from the action bracket if the twist is not too severe. 

    John Dewey

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    John Dewey
    John Dewey Enterprises
    Penfield IL
    217-595-5535
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  • 18.  RE: Steinway broached action rail hanger dimensions

    Member
    Posted 02-27-2020 17:53
    Obviously I need to get better on posting. The first paragraph got in twice. Sorry.

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    John Dewey
    John Dewey Enterprises
    Penfield IL
    217-595-5535
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