Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

  • 1.  Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-23-2019 18:41
    Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2019 20:24
    I'm going to venture a guess: striving for as perfect as possible equal temperament combines the best of both worlds. Reasoning: if we strive for equal temperament, we are going to end up with some (hopefully small) degree of unequal temperament due to the piano being a physical instrument. That's just reality from what I understand of the physics involved.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-23-2019 22:58
    Unfortunately, that does not answer my question.

    Striving for equal temperament will ultimately lead to the production of equal temperament or a temperament that is almost the same as equal temperament.

    I was actually hoping that a temperament is available that combines the key colours of unequal temperament with the symmetry of equal temperament.

    Are there any temperaments that are symmetrical to some extent and make key colours available?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2019 00:40
    In that case, perhaps a poorly executed ET?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 02:54
    At the seminar which I organised last week Martin Renshaw, an esteemed historian, organ builder and musicologist said it was Young's temperament which was in use very widely at least in England at the beginning of the 19th century.

    When Vallotti is used I get annoyed by it because I can't tell that it's not equal temperament. So that gives an indication of how far one can go before perception of an unequal temperament starts to kick in and the temperament being a virtually equal temperament. I once had considerable egg on my face complaining about the use of equal temperament when in fact it was Vallotti in use.

    For anyone interested the first session of the seminar is on  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k61eHv9piMc  and there is a link to the second. Unfortunately I had to edit the second session and mucked up the editing in the middle but will bring forward an unedited extract where my editing fell foul of the demonstration.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 6.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 04:05
    Are you referring to Young's 1st or 2nd temperament?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2019 06:44
    EBVT does it all and is adjustable to personal taste. In its milder form it is almost indistinguishable from ET. However, rather than being simply a sloppy ET, it is a very intelligently crafted WT that purposely enhances the simpler keys while not inducing too much pizzazz into the more remote keys. 

    On top of all that, it makes a crummy, poorly scaled piano sound much better by putting the good where it counts. 

    That's my answer to your question. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 07:03
    1. The symmetry of equal temperament.
    2. The key colours of unequal temperament.

    The best feature of equal temperament seems to be its symmetry which makes it practical for every scenario.

    The best feature of unequal temperament seems to be its variety of key colours which restore a dimension of sound that has been lost due to the homogeneity of equal temperament.

    Somewhere in the middle lies a temperament that is symmetrical to some extent and makes key colours available.

    By combining the symmetry of equal temperament and the key colours of unequal temperament, a temperament can be created that combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds.


    Are there any temperaments that have already been developed that contain these features?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 07:20
    Di Veroli discusses several options.
    Consider getting this book:

    https://www.braybaroque.ie/temper/

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 06:48
    Best is a subjective decision based on a particular actual situation.
    Most musicians are happy with good enough, and get on to playing the music.
    I recall seeing a video of Martha Argerich testing a piano for performance. She played a burst of chords and scales, less than 10 seconds, and said "That's good!"
    Your concern seems more in the realm of mathematics than performance, and I believe your compositions are digitally produced.
    Your temperaments don't seem to relate to the tuning of real pianos for common practice performance, but you ask for our confirmation from that viewpoint.
    I suggest that you pursue whatever calculations please you and give it your own title, perhaps "Roshan's Favorite All-Purpose Temperament."
    If you can make use of your temperament to produce effects in your own compositions, then good, do it!
    If other people can hear or respond to those effects, you may have made a creative discovery of value to others.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 09:57
    The one I've heard of is the EBVT worked on by Bill Bremmer. However, if I remember correctly it doesn't account for different inharmonicity in the temperament octave so stick to using this temperament on well scaled pianos and not anything of the spinet or console variety. =)

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2019 13:01
    Experience proves that it greatly enhances the sound of a spinet or poorly scaled piano.  But to each his own.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-24-2019 14:42
    I didn't realize that. I've tried EBVT once on a decent scsled baby grand and didn't quite understand it. But if it is supposed to help spinets sing a bit better then that is something I honestly overlooked.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2019 17:41
    It takes some practice to get it right consistently. Personally I find it even a little more difficult than ET , but it gets much easier with regularity. 

    The extreme challenged scaling on many spinets actually produces different results...where ET is totally impossible, EBVT often makes everything better. Pretty cool.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Posted 05-25-2019 12:53
    Ron Koval's series of WT's are viewable on Jason Kanter's site, under Modern Well

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Which temperament combines the best of both of the equal and unequal worlds?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2019 18:20

    I second everything Peter writes about EBVT(III). A really nice feature is that the temperament octave can be laid aurally, and by the very nature of doing so, the inharmonicity is accounted for automatically (the equal-beating method will give you the width of the temperament.)

    True, in the written sequence A3 is set as a 6:3 octave from A4, and F4 as a 4:2 from F3. Anyways, if A4 or F4 doesn't fit in, they can be moved later. At least that's what I do. And if Bill himself hasn't changed his own method lately, he starts from A3 and puts A4 in the right spot later. Usually it's a 6:3, but it's not set in stone.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Wingren, RPT
    Jakobstad, Finland
    0035844-5288048
    ------------------------------