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Verdigris

  • 1.  Verdigris

    Posted 02-13-2019 15:50
    Anyone know what material the wippen rail in its Steinway piano might have been that this Steinway wippen flange was attached to?



  • 2.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2019 16:24
    Pretty sure the repetition rail is just plain brass.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-13-2019 17:07
    Hi, Karl,

    Depending on the age of the instrument, the rails might also be wood.

    Kind regards.

    Horace





      Original Message




  • 4.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2019 20:01
    Thank you Mr. Greeley. You are of course correct. In this case though I'm still pretty sure it's a brass rail. From the photo I see a rosette flange and a balancier lacking a steel keeper hook. Both of which lead me to believe the instrument is later that the wood rail period. That and the tell tale green residue in the rosettes.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-13-2019 20:34
    Hi, Karl,

    Ah! There's the rub...not using HL for access, I don't see attachments without directly downloading them.
    Given your description, there undoubtedly brass rails in the mix.

    That said, while I've never seen any real evidence to suggest that brass rails are involved in verdigris; I've seen it in many instruments that did predate the use of brass for action rails...thus my assumption.

    Thanks for the additional information.

    Kind regards.

    Horace





      Original Message




  • 6.  RE: Verdigris

    Member
    Posted 02-13-2019 23:06
    do you have a serial number for the piano to help determine the age ? 

     i found some advertising from steinway that stated they boiled action parts in paraffin to water/damp proof them.
    its possible that the verdigris came from the screw reacting with the paraffin in the clamshell flange. not long ago i had a steinway m that had new whippens but used the old flanges which had verdigris in the action centers. to make the action work someone had given all the flanges a good dusting of teflon powder....

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 10:44
    Mutton tallow impregnated bushing cloth reaction with the brass.  Same reason your brass cutlery turns green from exposure to eating animal fats.  

    BTW you can buy mutton tallow lubricants which are still great for trapwork and some other applications.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-15-2019 07:07
    I strongly disagree that organic fat lubricants like mutton tallow are good anywhere in the piano, especially for lubrication purposes. They deteriorate, harden, are corrosive, and cake up as they trap dust, wood fibers, and other particulate.

    I'll go as far as saying that grease lubricants of any kind, including synthetics, should not be used anywhere near wood or leather. They permanently soften and slowly creep through them. They are also traps for grit and lead to squeaks.

    I learned this by observing some of my 25+ year old rebuilding work. Mistakes I wish someone warned me about back then.

    ------------------------------
    Mario Igrec, RPT
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 07:46
    What would you recommend in place of tallow or synthetic grease in these situations? I've been using SuperLube (available from Pianotek and elsewhere) in the smallest possible amounts for trap lever pivot pins, various trapwork leaf springs, and the like. Places where graphite grease was often used originally. I've had great success with the it, but I'd be curious to hear what you would use in these situations.


    ------------------------------
    Mark Dierauf
    Concord NH
    603-225-4652
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-14-2019 11:32
    Unfortunately I don't - this wippen was provided as part of a presentation at the recent SCRC in Denton.  In looking at it more carefully I noticed the verdigris on the flange and got to wondering about it.  The pin of course has a nice green patina as well.

    ------------------------------
    [Barbara] [Bernhardt]
    [Piano Technician/Co-Owner ]
    [GF Music, LLC]
    [Montrose] [CO]
    [(970)209-8817]
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-15-2019 09:24
    I wish that someone actually knew for sure what the exact cause of verdigris was.  I have heard over the years from some people that it was mutton tallow impregenated bushing cloth like David said and from others that it was from dipping the parts in paraffin wax.  Both seem plausible.  Fats go rancid and turn acidic which would definitley corrode brass.  However I am not sure about the effects of paraffin on brass, but many older piano parts appear to be coated in some type of wax rather than finish.  My concern is that if verdigris actually comes from paraffin migrating from the wood into cloth...that means even after rebushing the verdigris could have the potential of returning....after a number of years.  Anybody actually have solid proof which of these is the actual cause?

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-15-2019 10:24
    Wool bushings might potentially still contain lanolin acids that could cause the verdigris on pins made of brass.  Alternatively, the pianos with the verdigris issues could have been exposed repeatedly to high humidity as in a coastal situation.  Curiously, long-term exposure of both brass and copper to weather results in verdigris.  Common examples of this include the verdigris-green Statue of Liberty, which was copper-colored upon delivery by the French, brass urns that have been left outside for many years and turned verdigris green, and verdigris green copper rooftops.

    ------------------------------
    [Barbara] [Bernhardt]
    [Piano Technician/Co-Owner ]
    [GF Music, LLC]
    [Montrose] [CO]
    [(970)209-8817]
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-15-2019 10:56
    I have never solidly bought into the dipping or treating idea as the CAUSE of the verdigris. I have noticed though that Steinway (historically) is the only maker with a full METAL stack frame. Metal will condense moisture and hold it there longer than wood. Therefore a high moisture atmosphere is exacerbated by the high metal content in the action cavity. The fact that it is always all over the rails, cloth as well as in the pins (to me) points more in that direction. Moisture CAUSES verdigris. Other chemical factors may also exacerbate it but I am in the camp of moisture (generally speaking).

    I have seen verdigris in both Yamaha and Kawai actions (both have significant metal in there), one Mason & Hamlin (which does not, but is in the DC area ...swamp), and one elderly German upright (also in the DC area). 

    This is certainly not conclusive evidence and I can't prove it any way. However, it does not cause a problem within the 30-40 year design lifespan of the piano. It is only after that where problems occur. The maker would say: "Replace it".  

    My .02

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-15-2019 13:50
    It's certainly true that verdigris is much less of a problem in a dry climate, assuming no one has sprayed the action with something greasy in a more damp climate.

    Perhaps it's possible that the greasy lubricants increase verdigris because they are hygroscopic, and draw in moisture from the air?

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 00:56
    If that were the case then all old Steinways would develop verdigris, but they don't. 

    On Mario's comment, I don't have a problem using this lubricant on trap leathers especially where they contact trap springs. I find it works much better than high tech polymers, graphite, powdered teflon, or anything else I've tried. I also find it useful on pedal pitmans (wood-leather contact points).  But like most things it's not appropriate for all uses.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 12:02
    Try plain bar soap, optionally with some powdered teflon.

    ------------------------------
    Mario Igrec, RPT
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 12:46
    I've carried a sliver of Ivory soap with me for 40 years. Of course not the same slice. But this is my great grandfathers ax. Of course the handle has been replaced a few times and once the ax head, but it is my great grandfather's ax.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-16-2019 05:19
    Peter G. wrote: "Metal will condense moisture and hold it there longer than wood."

    Metal does not attract moisture. Neither does wood. Where do these ideas come from?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 12:43
    Metal conducts temperature changes quicker than wood. Cooling metal will condense water vapor before wood.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-16-2019 13:07
    Larry M. wrote: "Metal conducts temperature changes quicker than wood. Cooling metal will condense water vapor before wood."

    I agree with your statement Larry. However, the original statement suggested that the humidity increased within the action cavity because a larger mass of metal was in a Steinway action than others. This is simply not true.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 18:40
    I'm glad my theory is bogus...fake...and otherwise dumb. 

    No one though has actually DEMONSTRATED that paraffin, or mutton tallow, or whatever they think is the cause, actually IS the cause. 

    I have had pretty good success with the following, usually leaving the parts screwed to the frame:

    1) Douse a section with your favorite solvent (I have used starting fluid with ether in it)
    2) Work the parts vigorously to squeeze the gunk around and out of the bushings
    3) Douse them again (keep it wet so the verdigris remains liquidy)
    4) Use compressed air directed on the joint to blow the daylights out of it, blowing the liquefied crud out and away
    5) Repeat steps 1-5 till they're clean (or as clean as you can get them)

    The compressed air is the secret to greater success. Otherwise you simply liquify it and it soon re-congeals.  Not uncommon for the pins to be too loose after this treatment. If the verdigris is REALLY bad it deteriorates the bushing cloth. Then it's toast. 

    Learned This from Bob (Bartnik?) in the hills of Virginia. Smart guy...a little weird...but very inventive.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2019 03:02
    We are trying to save a patient dying of terminal cancer.

    From microscopic examination the material coalesced onto the flange
    pins appears waxy and does not easily dissolve in solvents.?? This
    suggests that it might be a wax.?? Strong solvents that dissolve waxes
    might work.?? Methyline chloride (one of the solvents in paint stripper)
    might work to flush out the waxy portions.

    Replacing the parts is more sane.




  • 23.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2019 10:30
    Seems a bit of an overreaction.  What's clear is that the brass center pins are reacting to something.  Since the same pins exist in pianos that don't form verdigris one has to assume that the culprit is something in contact with the pins. Since it is widely reported that the bushing cloth during a period was pretreated with animal based products (mutton tallow), and since it's known that these products cause oxidation in brass then I think it's safe to make the leap that it was the pretreatment of the bushing cloth with animal based lubricants that is the source of the problem.  

    But I guess it's not really that important why.  The important part is that the only real fix is to replace the parts.  Everything else is just delaying the inevitable and wasting money on temporary fixes that could go toward a proper repair.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Verdigris

    Posted 02-17-2019 12:12
    David, are you suggesting that rebushing will result in the same problem down the road? Does anyone have experience with verdigris returning after rebushing? Or would it take many years? Some old parts are difficult to replace.....currently I have an 1880s Hardman Peck upright with verdigris. If it is tallow in the cloth I would tink that replacing the cloth would get rid of most of the problem, but if it is paraffin migrating from the wood, then it will likely occur again.....but probably not until after I'm gone.

    --
    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." -Romans 1:16





  • 25.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2019 13:15
    My experience has been that it always comes back sooner or later, and in some cases it comes back with a vengeance, faster and worse than before (that one I cannot explain, but it happens).

    I cannot speak to rebushing since I have not attempted treatment in that manner, but I would expect that you would be "re-setting the clock" so to speak. I cannot get myself to approach it that way (however if the owner was actually willing to pay my hourly rate to do it...well maybe...but I doubt it).

    I tell the client: "I can treat it, but I can't cure it. I am simply buying you some time here (and I can't tell you precisely how much time) but the only sure cure is to replace the parts, and that is a lot more money. When it comes back we can treat it again if you want to, but we are not going to stop this cycle without replacement".

    Some opt for treatment, some decide to replace. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-15-2019 11:06
    Here's a discussion from the past regarding treating vertigris. Note that many prominent technicians have weighed in on this discussion. So far as I know, there is no cure beyond replacement. Check it out:


    1. verdigris treatment
    Jeff Farris
    Posted 10-26-2016 14:00

    Hi all,

    My client cannot afford new parts on their 1919 Steinway M. Besides Protek, what other treatments have had decent success. I remember back in the day someone talking about Wild Turkey, but I haven't tried it yet. Not on piano parts anyway.

    Thanks for any suggestions (within reason),

    Jeff Farris

    Austin, TX

    ------------------------------
    Jeff Farris
    Austin TX
    512-636-1914
    ------------------------------


    2. RE: verdigris treatment
    Karl Roeder
    Posted 10-26-2016 14:35

    Mr.Farris,

    Naptha works very well on verdigris. Ronsonal lighter fluid or zippo lighter fluid should do the trick. Work it into the bushings and re-apply once or twice and the centers should free up nicely. The downside is that rust never sleeps and you'll need to do it again every 6 months or so. Be sure to be in a well ventilated space away from any open flames while you are working. My experience is that naptha works far better than protek but smells far worse.
    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL



    3. RE: verdigris treatment
    Ronald Nossaman
    Posted 10-26-2016 16:10
    The best I have managed is 5-6 years with a silicone/naphtha mix, heated
    in with a heat gun. This from a distance of about 8" away, fairly low
    heat, and a moving pad at hand to throw over the thing if it blew up. It
    didn't, nor did the other two I did the same way. Took about an hour,
    and lasted far longer than I had any right to hope. It did eventually
    come back though, so if the customer can't afford parts, explain that
    all you're doing is buying time for them to save up. Trying a second
    application when it does return is much less successful. Bottom line is
    that the parts are factory ruined toast, and replacement is the only
    real fix.
    Ron N




    4. RE: verdigris treatment
    Roger Gable
    Posted 10-26-2016 15:50
    Jeff,
    I've always been under the assumption there has been no remedy for this problem, but I may have a solution that could work. About a year ago I experimented with "Methyl Chloroform 71-55-6 Tetra-chloroethylene 127-18-4" (ingredients on the spray can) more commonly called "brake cleaning fluid" obtained at an auto parts store. This was a circa 1920 Steinway. The process is more involved than just applying the chemical on the bushings. Remove the center pins and use the tube included with the spray can and thoroughly clean (wash) the corrosion out of the bushing and then re-pin. I'm not purporting this to be final cure for this common problem, but the piano I experimented with is still in good working order after a year of service. We'll see in a couple of years if this is still a viable fix.
    Roger Gable


    Avast logo

    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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    5. RE: verdigris treatment
    Donald Mannino
    Posted 10-26-2016 16:44

    Jeff,



    I have had some temporary success with using naphtha to clean the bushings. Remove from the rail, unpin, soak the bushings with naphtha ideally dipping them flanges into a container of the cleaner.



    After they are thoroughly dried, then fit new pins and reassemble. It can be done in maybe 4 – 6 hours.



    I was taught, though, to always put a disclaimer on the invoice that the customer receives, and have them sign your copy. I took pity on a customer and did this cleaning job for them, and then they sold the piano and told the buyer that I had "rebuilt" the action. So the new owner contacted me after 2 – 3 years to complain that the action was becoming sluggish. I pulled out my signed copy of the invoice and brought it with me to the new owner's home, confirmed what the problem was, and gave them a copy of the invoice for their records. I then sent them an estimate for parts replacement.



    My disclaimer simply stated that the treatment applied at the customer's request is a temporary solution, and that eventually the sluggishness will likely return. The only permanent and guaranteed solution would be to replace the parts.



    So, be warned. J



    Don Mannino RPT







    6. RE: verdigris treatment
    Susan Kline
    Posted 10-26-2016 21:09

    There's something I've done to a couple of M's which are not played by professionals. They seem to be doing fine after a number of years of normal household use. However, I'm sure this way of retrieving a seizing M is not for everyone. There is a trade-off between parts cost and diddly fiddly bench work. I have enough time and don't mind puttering away at center pins while watching TV.

    I replaced the wippen flanges, checked the pinning of the flies and balanciers, which usually aren't too bad unless someone has sprayed the action; and then I replaced the hammer flanges but drilled out the shank bushings and rebushed. (I also bolstered the knuckles/rollers.) I now have a beautiful unused set of Steinway shanks without flanges --- which was sort of stupid. I've thought of seeing if Renner or Tokiwa might provide me with several sets of Steinwayhammer flanges without the shanks, but I haven't gotten around to asking them yet.

    Anyway, with the wippens ("repetitions"), most of the trouble is in the flange bushings, and new flanges fix that. I theorized that rebushing the hammer shanks would slow the migration of oil into the hammer centers. The pleasing lightly built old parts can be kept, and the original hammers, so I substituted labor time for most of the parts cost.

    All this assumes that no one has sprayed or is going to spray the action. I imagine that in the East and South most actions with verdigris have already been too fouled with lubricant for just replacing the flanges to work. I remember one totally seized Steinway M which I "zapped" as a temporary fix -- the piano was about to be moved to Hawaii. I explained that the parts would need to be replaced very soon after the move. The oil just bubbled and boiled out of the parts, which were a very dark brown, and a cloud of vaporized oily smoke came out of the centers. Sometimes I'm embarrassed for my profession.
    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



    7. RE: verdigris treatment
    Paul Brown
    Posted 10-26-2016 21:10
    Edited by Paul Brown 10-26-2016 21:34

    Hi Jeff,

    I am for parts replacement as some others have stated.

    For most actions (without success on Steinway flanges of course), I have applied Ballistol with a syringe (drop at a time) in combination with a hair dryer while aggressively moving the parts to work in the solution.

    You might try Ustanol (not the spray version). It is the lower viscosity version of Ballistol.

    http://www.ballistol.de/93-1-Ustanol.html (expand the 'mehr infos' - for more information).

    Buy and try on old Steinway flanges (drop at a time with a syringe) in combination with a hair dryer/heat gun before using on your client's piano.

    Paul.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Brown, RPT
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Email: paulbrn@telus.net



    8. RE: verdigris treatment
    Geoff Sykes
    Posted 10-26-2016 22:40

    I'm hoping that I will learn something by posting this follow-up question. Why won't simply repinning the part be sufficient? You pull the old pin out, run one of Don's bushing burnishing tools through the hole to clean the felt up a bit and resize it for a new pin, and stick in a new pin. Does the verdigris really saturate the felt and the part so much that replacement of the entire part is necessary?
    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



    9. RE: verdigris treatment
    Paul McCloud
    Posted 10-26-2016 22:50
    Geoff:
    If you've never worked on these, it's hard to imagine what you'll find when you do. The answer is YES. Over many years, there have been many attempts to cure this disease, but so far as I've heard, nothing is guaranteed (yet) to do so. Except replacement of the parts. The flanges were supposed to have been dipped in a solution of tallow as a lubricant. That means all of the wood is saturated with it too, and the stuff migrates even into new felt somehow. The felt gets gummy and gooey. Some techs have used various solvents like Perk and brake fluid (I haven't tried them myself) and have some success. In the home, perhaps just using some Protek will get you down the road, but it seems to come back after some time.
    YMMV.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




    10. RE: verdigris treatment
    Geoff Sykes
    Posted 10-27-2016 00:49

    I've had a number of customers with sticky action flange problems, some of them with noticeable verdigris issues, that Protek has been of significant help. But I tell them up front that if the Proteck treatment doesn't last until the next tuning then repinning is the next step. Many of the actions then do fine with just the Protek treatment, but not all. Of the actions that I have had to repin, none of them, (so far - fingers crossed), have needed followup work. Since none of the pianos I have dealt with this way were Steinway's I have to ask, is the verdigris problem that requires part replacement, and which is under discussion here, specifically a Steinway issue?
    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



    11. RE: verdigris treatment
    Willem Blees
    Posted 10-26-2016 23:27

    Jeff

    Presumably you've all the responses. Sine there really is no "cure" for the verdigris, I would suggest you charge them repin the hammer flanges, but tell the customer that the best solution is new parts, and to start saving their money. Perhaps, as an incentive, tell them you'll give them credit for half the amount they spent on the repining if they agree to have you put on a new set of hammers, shanks and flanges within 2 years.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789



    12. RE: verdigris treatment
    Blaine Hebert
    Posted 10-27-2016 00:27

    I worked for a small dealer in Hollywood (anyone remember Charlie Crenshaw?) and he took in many verdigris Steinways. Over many years I watched him hose down dozens of actions with gallons of lighter fluid, leaving the actions in the sun, heating them and we tried everything we could think of to remedy the corrosion... all to no avail.

    I have had many a customer with locked-up treble sections that I repinned every year, only to have to repin again the next year.

    Since this is a problem with a natural oil (probably an animal fat or vegetable oil) that degrades, producing acetic acid, which reacts with copper to produce the copper-acetate gum that we know and love I often wonder if ammonia might react and neutralize the acid. I had to clean off a thick layer of verdigris from a naked Steinway action frame and ammonia did work, but slowly and with lots of elbow grease. I have not tried using ammonia on parts, but my last set was so thoroughly gummed up that I would not bother with anything except new parts. As it was I had to scrub off the keys as well - someone hosed down the balance rail with something like WD-40 (or crankcase oil).

    If there was a magic cure we would all be using it by now... recommend new parts! If they can't afford that just keep repining and dousing with ProTek.
    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170



    13. RE: verdigris treatment
    Cecil Snyder
    Posted 10-27-2016 02:31

    In Ireland, what we call mineral oil is known as "paraffin oil," which I think is a much better description of the stuff, which is after all a petroleum derivative. Historically, I believe mineral oil was once the most common treatment far whatever ailed pianos, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was not also used as a prophylactic treatment as well. It is not hard to envision what happens when the more volatile components of mineral oil gradually evaporate over time. What you're left with is paraffin, or simply wax. Repinning will of course not remedy this because the stuff is in the bushing cloth. And remember the center pins themselves, though they look like steel, are in fact an alloy of brass composed of copper, zinc and other metals, all of which are subject to oxidation over time. I've tried to dissolve wax in many different kinds of solvents, none of which had the slightest effect. The CDC, I recall reading, has unrefrigerated tissue samples from the WW I era preserved in wax (of Spanish influenza and other nasty stuff.) Wax lasts forever, you'll never succeed in dissolving it or washing it away. I've used naphtha and dimethyl silicone oil myself to treat verdigris, and as others have already noted, it is at best a temporary fix.

    The best solution to the problem is of course to replace the parts. It is also, in the long run, the most cost-effective solution. Most of these pianos are Steinways from the 1920s if not earlier. The wood is often brittle with age, especially if its been in a dry climate. However, I'm not adverse to offering my customers other solutions if they feel they can't afford this. Sometimes you may find that the the problem is confined primarily to one set of centers or another. The hammer flanges, jack centers and whippen flanges are all pinned separately to begin with and with different specs as far as tightness. Sometimes you may find that only the hammer flanges are a problem. Other times, it is the jack centers. In this situation I may offer to rebush and repin only the offending set of centers. (Repinning alone is just a waste of time--you have to replace the bushing cloth.) Of course I make clear this is only a partial cure, but often this stop-gap solution may be the best fit for the customer. (And think of all the problems involved with replacement parts which you are circumventing.) I have yet to rebush and repin all the centers in an action, as this would cost almost as much in labor as you'd be saving in parts, but I have done sets of hammer flanges and/or jack centers, and it's a repair which is useful and good as far as it goes. (Use Renner flange bushing cloth, nothing else compares.) Take some time to analyze the action before you throw up your hands or turn up your nose. Perhaps there is a solution both you and your customer can live with.
    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108




  • 27.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 04:23

    I just want to toss in my 2 cents:

    Natural oils like vegetable oils and animal fats contain fatty acids that can break down into smaller organic acids like vinegar (acetic acid) or formic acid which are corrosive.

    When I started in this business I worked with a small dealer in Hollywood who had many verdigris Steinways go through the shop.  He was applying lighter fluid and alcohol daily, leaving actions in the sun and repinning constantly, all to little good. 

    One treatment I never  tried is ammonia.  A material like ammonia or a basic detergent solution (409? Fantastic?) might neutralize the acids or even flush out some of the problem, but I have never tried it.  Anyone have a set of old Steinway parts to douse?

    As for me, I tell my customers what to expect, charge for my repinning and rebuild when I can.



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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 28.  RE: Verdigris

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2019 21:18
    When you burn an old Steinway flange, the smoke smells just like candle smoke. So this old chemistry student is gonna say paraffin.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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