Pianotech

  • 1.  Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-21-2020 08:14
    Dear All

    Thanks to all who contribute so expertly to this forum. It's a wonderful resource and particularly for a dedicated tuning nerd becoming a reluctant or unintended technician.

    I had the opportunity yesterday to visit my friend with the 1925 vintage Steinway M on which he's experienced problems with the quality of a local technician's services.

    The instrument is in a very acoustically hard setting and the apartment is right on a seafront overlooking a fashionable port. The former gives rise to need for particular voicing whilst the latter gives rise to horrible shifts of humidity between summer and autumn, and the centrally heated winter. This caused the instrument to have slipped significantly out of tune since I last tuned it in October - or at least I hope it's the humidity shift rather than anything to do with the quality of the tuning :-)

    The friend has valid causes of dissatisfaction but one, not so. This might be of wider interest. He complained that the top four notes weren't working. It wasn't hammer misalignment at all! It was because the tuning had slipped so not giving an nice clear ringing note, and my friend is 20 years older than me and clearly can't hear top notes certainly at the worst of times, and probably coupled with inattention to hammer voicing up there. 

    Attached are photos of the new dampers fitted. From memory these are not the original dampers which were in the instrument, which for me is rather a shame - if I see a 1925 vintage instrument I expect an instrument of that vintage and not bastardised with foreign components. But to my surprise upon inspection these dampers aren't brand new and appear have had a life before. Does anyone recognise their profile? Are they Steinway of any vintage or another manufacturer?

    Then there's the hammers and the voicing. THANKS particularly to all who have sent me comments and advice on another thread and privately. Someone very kindly referred me to the André Oorebeek book "The Voice of the Piano". This book comes with a DVD Tutorial which is an unexpected bonus - but reading the book and whatever the DVD shows it's quite clear that factory experience of voicing is irreplaceable for one's training and it's a task beyond any amateur. But reading a book like this is so wonderful as it tells us at least how it should be done, how to recognise someone who knows what they're doing, even if one doesn't do it oneself. So many customers and I suspect piano retailers are in the position of the blind leading the blind in taking for granted what a local self appointed expert says who might have done a few jobs passable for the inexperience but hasn't been found out . . . yet.

    But with the uneven state of the sound, let alone of the appearance of the hammers themselves, the local opera-house contracted technician has been found out. Not a needle in sight throughout any of his work, doesn't know about needles, and attacks hammers with sandpaper and rasp - which shows.

    Whilst writing here, it's possibly helpful to mention a few things from Oorebeek. The first is that the hammers have to mate with all three strings perfectly. When cut apart, the felt at the sides is more relaxed so the edges of the individual hammers are higher than the middle. It's only this felt that has to be sanded initially, no more, to get the hammers mating flat with the strings. Then upper quartile voicing. This changes the shape of the hammer. After needle voicing therefore, sanding is to restore the shape of the hammer before further voicing, possibly each side of the crown and then at the bottom as reserve.

    The second thing from Oorebeek is the difference between American and Europe Steinway hammers. American are soft and have to be hardened but Hamburg from Renner are hard and have to be needled softer. 

    For an American Steinway therefore in Europe, in my own personal experience of Abel natural (formerly Premium) felt, refelting by Abel is a good solution as they are soft and are played in without voicing until played in enough to require it on an individual basis.

    Finally - duplex bars. I've found a couple of Steinways where Duplex is tuned beautifully and the harmonics sing, and others which are really quite untuned and give a mush which can be bright or simply disturbing. Where one finds a Steinway, Grotian or Kawaii with Duplex where the Duplex could be tuned better, is this anything one contemplates undertaking and if so how?

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
    +44 1342 850594
    "High Definition" Tuning
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2020 18:40
    David,

    On the damper head issue alone, I have a 1917 SS M here in the shop that has damper heads exactly like what you show. Don't know if that helps you or not. Just a point of comparison. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 3.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-21-2020 19:15
    Dear Peter

    Thanks - that's brilliant news and comforting.

    Whilst not relating to this instrument can anyone give details on how Duplex bars can be moved so as to tune the Duplex lengths? Instruments that I've tuned are so much a pleasure when the top notes really are musical by reason of the duplexes being tuned and resonating beautifully.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 4.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-22-2020 12:57
    You cannot move the bars under tension, so you'd have to let tension down....and then you could tap them forward or backward...but
    you cannot tune them to the pitch they need to be tuned to, since tension is down.

    (Basically we don't tune the Steinway style bars
    as they are pretty much where the factory put them. If your local tuner moved them, then I think there might be a placement
    figure out there somewhere. I used to have it somewhere.) One of the other techs may have that figure. It was posted
    here at one time according to my recollection.
     Basically all you could do is get them near
    in tune for the end notes, as they are cast and all the middle notes will or won't be in tune. Bridge placement comes into
    play, so there'd be some that are on spec and some that are not. It is the front duplex (not tuneable on the non-speaking side)
    which adds the most. You can mute the front duplex off playing a note and hear the difference. That tuning is set-up in
    the plate mold. (In older Steinways they are staggered and you might have been able to tune them, but as a group.)
    The back duplexes add complexity and color to the tone. Mostly this is heard with the sustain pedal down.

    I don't think either of these were meant to be tuned after the piano is strung and up to pitch. There is too much pressure.
    So this is a long winded way of saying they should have been placed properly when the piano was strung. There
    is a measurement, though it is often approximated. 

     There are pianos that have tunable duplex bars, but I don't think Steinway intended for that.

    American Steinway hammers if original are soft with shellac or lacquer added as a stiffener. I thought you said the local guy
    had installed new hammers. If he installed Euro hammers they will be hard pressed and not require stiffener...or if he installed
    Imadegawa (Japanese) hammers they'd be VERY hard....all Euro and Asian hammers are hard and must be voiced like
    the Orebeek method or other similar method's, like the Renner method. All the Euro piano mfgs uses these methods if
    they use Euro hammers...Hamburg Steinway hammers are made by Renner. NY Steinway hammers are pressed in the
    NY factory. (These days they press them harder with pre-reinforcing and use German felt
    so they only need a bit of lacquer and very little needling)

    You should take or should have taken the action out and inspected the hammers, looking for a stamp on one of the first or second bass
    hammers to determine the maker. Sometimes this is filed off when they taper the hammers.

    You would see Steinway, Renner, Abel stamped down there. I'm not sure about
    Imadegawa. You might make a guess by the felt color and the hammer moulding material.

    There is another French company, I don't remember the name. Abel uses French felt, Renner uses German
    felt and makes Hamburg Steinway hammers. These German hammers sound pretty good right out of the box, but will
    sound better with voicing ala Orebeek to open the sound. He doesn't wait for playing in.

    You can use the Renner guide as a good
    general way to voice them. Abel hammers require less needling than Renner hammers. You must fit the hammers to
    the strings. It may require sanding down an area too high on the hammer, or it might require lifting strings. Was it
    restrung? It may require leveling strings.

    It's way more involved than you'd think and a good professional from the area should know what to do. I would recommend
    your friend contact someone else who is a proven pro with voicing to get the best from the piano.

    The 4 top treble hammers might improve if moved for or back...you can find this out by moving the whole keyframe
    for or aft slightly as you play C88 ...maybe it is just a matter of repositioning. Mark the position w/pencil. Put the cheek
    blocks in to see if it stays there or moves. There is a dag on the cheekblock that
    holdes the frame in place. It is adjustable...loosen the screws to change it's position.

    The top 4 may also require filing, or perhaps a drop or two of lacquer solution to brighten.
    This happens even with Euro hammers. Generally I've found Asian hammers to
    be very hard up there and don't need any help with lacquer.

    The American aesthetic for the age of his piano was a warm/sweet/singing sound and not the bright ping you
    often hear from modern pianos who are too short to imitate very well a concert grand.

    I don't think the Steinway M sounds very good pushed to modern brilliance, though it can be near that
    if desired.

    The Abel hammers are pretty good, so hopefully someone put those on there. There is a Renner Blue Point that is also
    made for American pianos. The hammers require very little needling but they will sound better from
    the get go if good voicing is done right away. Fitting hammers can be a fusy job. 

    This is why a hammer job is costly. It is not just a matter of gluing them on the shanks!

    Would someone at Hamburg Steinway be able to recommend a technician near your friend or
    at least check with the nearest big city's Steinway showroom.

    One way or another he's going to have to pay for the results he wants.

    Best of luck....

    R

    ------------------------------
    Richard Adkins
    Piano Technician
    Coe College
    Cedar Rapids, IA
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  • 5.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-22-2020 14:20
    Thanks Richard on confirmation of the damper profiles - reassuring. I made a mistaken observation on a previous visit and not having taken a photograph. Apologies. They simply didn't look as I remembered them on my first encounter with the instrument.

    Thanks also regarding information about tuning the duplexes. It seems as though this is something that a piano-house technician in preparing an instrument for sale either takes notice of or not. I've come across two Steinways where it's a real pleasure to tune the top end as as one is adjusting the tuning one hears the string really sing as the duplex from the lower octave resonates well. The string moves through a real "ping" as one moves through the sweet spot.  For the life of me I don't remember the first but the second is an Model B in Ladbroke Grove in London supplied by Hurstwood Farm Studios. The result is the most musical top end of a piano I've ever heard.
    Hurstwood Farm clearly actually do what they say they do -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qcm6dIv8cA  and it's rather a pleasure not just to see a website such as http://hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/renovationandrepair.php?page=renovation&catid=3&id=1 but to hear the result of what a company says on its website being manifest. They express opinions http://hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/renovationandrepair.php?catid=3&id=1 and their approach audibly gives results. Other instruments I've encountered are rather more random as to the musical quality of the duplexes. 

    Perhaps a thread dedicated to cataloguing particular instruments where the duplexes have been well prepared in restringing might encourage greater awareness and others to take such care. This instrument was number 100825, and looking at my photos a model C 211186 near Leicester might be the other.

    With regard to the 1925 Steinway in France thanks so much for your observation:
    The American aesthetic for the age of his piano was a warm/sweet/singing sound and not the bright ping you
    often hear from modern pianos who are too short to imitate very well a concert grand.  
    and it's this character that we want to reach. I'm going there again this week to meet with the local Steinway agent and to work through the permutations of possibilities within the constraints of costs and local skills. 

    An interesting observation comes from the Hurstwood website regarding Bechsteins using Abel felt. In England at the beginning of the 20th century musicians were very particular in favouring Bechstein for their domestic environments. I've always thought it was mere fashion for the different tone of a Bechstein, but perhaps there was something about hammer hardness in that choice. It might be for that reason that in the hard acoustic of the small room in France, the original softer American hammers worked well and the owner might look to the Abel alternative.

    To many outside technicians' circles the differences between available options are merely a dark art. In the choice of different options might be a matter of greater awareness for people having work done. I'm not sure that even all technicians doing rebuildings in the UK, let alone Europe as bemoaned by Hurstwood actually know the differences. Whilst knowledge in my areas of the world seems to be much more random, in the USA where instruments are still built technicians seem to have a great advantage. 

    Best wishes and many thanks

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 6.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-22-2020 15:02





  • 7.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-22-2020 15:16
    Thanks so much for the link to discussion on duplexes. 

    Mention is made of nudging them . . . but clearly only after detensioning.

    Having heard the effect of well tuned duplexes I'd like to encourage any who haven't taken notice of them before to do so. Many bright top ends can be shrill but with the tuned duplexes the musicality is clear, distinct and beautiful.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 8.  RE: Steinway hammers, voicing, dampers and duplex

    Posted 02-22-2020 12:59
    Those look like Genuine American Steinway damper heads from that period to me. The do not have
    as pronounce an OG profile, but it's what I see in  Steinways. They are not D shaped as David said
    originally. R

    ------------------------------
    Richard Adkins
    Piano Technician
    Coe College
    Cedar Rapids, IA
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