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convincing client, best approach

  • 1.  convincing client, best approach

    Member
    Posted 12-05-2019 14:22
    I always liked Don Mannino's story about how he was criticizing the previous technicians work and what was recommended and then later finding his own card in the piano.
    So I don't talk bad about other tuners. People are loyal even if what they had wasn't up to par. At least in a small community like mine.
    Now the guy is dead.
    The other tuner in town is worthless as a technician, uses wd40, does a decent job tuning if the piano agrees with him. 
    I got a call from a long time teacher, musical family. Has a 6ft Schafer and Sons that had the deceased old tuner "taking care" of.
    The problem;
    The pianos have never been regulated by the old guy in 30 years. It doesn't play that hard but the sound is pinging and had lack of clarity in the bass. I really had no intention of doing more than just tuning and talking about the other issues,, but
    The sound made me check the plate bolts. I got an eighth of a turn on all the rim screw. Snugged it down. It didn't change my pitch but made the bass sound better. The piano gained in volume.
    That was bad. It took the lousy voiced hammers and hard to control (bad reg) mechanics and accentuated the worst of the sound making it too loud and pingy.
    What's my first move when I get to the piano tomorrow?
    #1 Be frankly honest and then take the string grooves off and see if the hammer could take some needles? Just give her back a softer sound like she had and then discuss regulation? 
    #2 Take the strings grooves off, shallow needle the tips. Let her listen, if she likes it be frankly honest and if she doesn't want to deal with anything,,, run.
    #3 Pick an octave, say across the tenor treble strut break. Where the hammers have enough felt to voice and can be gang filed. Regulate that octave and voice it. If she doesn't want to do the whole sheebang, put the regulation back similar to the others and quick voice.
    #4 Downey,, and alcohol or maybe Vodka,,,, ? Susan?


    ​​​​

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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
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  • 2.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Member
    Posted 12-05-2019 16:51
    I would have to say the problem is,,,The client thinks, Harry never recommended this be done,, why should it?
    Harry would let the pianos go and when they complained he told them they needed a new piano. 
    I was going to look for a link I could offer them that explains things.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 21:48

    There was that priceless Hitchcock comedy, "The Trouble with Harry" .........



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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 4.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 21:44
    Hi, Keith

    No Downey. It puts sticky smelly goop into the hammer and you can't get it out.

    Ask her if she hears the piano as being harsh or if she likes it this way. Some do.

    If she wonders what you mean, find the very worst most brash and ugly note you
    can, and then find another note nearby which isn't quite as awful, and play them one
    after the other. Play them the same volume. (honesty, give them both an equal chance.)

    Then take the chopstick needle, and put it in at a 45 degree angle entering just in front
    of the string grooves of the worst note. One needle, not more than about 1/3" long.
    Push it all the way in under the right string, play the note, push it in under the middle string, play
    the note, push it in under the left string, play the note. Even a Koren piano will usually
    give a demonstration of why she might want you to do this, even if it still needs more.

    The vodka is particularly helpful to smooth out the broken glass in octave 7, because
    there is so little felt up there and it is usually juiced till it is a solid block, extremely
    hard to needle, and extremely prone to damage either by needling or by filing.
    Use a very modest amount of vodka, like a few drops, right in the string grooves.
    It still lets the top be bright, but with a little cushion in the sound, it is fast, it doesn't
    harm the felt, and none of it remains in the hammer.

    If you use too much, even up there, the felt will deform, usually getting taller
    but narrower. Lower down where there is more felt, and the hammers are more
    flattened on the end, the vodka, even in modest amounts, will swell up the
    felt just in front of and behind the string grooves, because it is compacted
    there while it has flaked away where the string grooves are. A light filing
    of the bulges to restore a more or less oval shape can go very quickly..

    I wouldn't do a whole section. Do a note or two while she is watching and
    listening, then ask her if she wants you to do the whole thing. Used sparingly
    on the brightest registers, even more sparingly or not at all on the less bright
    areas, the vodka can get you a good way toward the ball park with very little
    expenditure of time, and then the needles have to even it up and do the rest,
    after a little bulge-removing reshaping as needed.

    It's not that hard to get them looking better in a uniform way with the bulge
    removal, as well. Just nip into the edges of those very long string grooves
    to shorten them making the shape uniform with the neighbors..

    When it comes to regulation you need to do some educating. Moving
    the hammer very slowly, explain the dance it should do, what letoff is,
    what drop is, what check distance is, what the distances should be,
    and show the rise from the spring tension when letting up on the key..
    If you see something way out of line, excessive drop
    comes to mind, find the very worst one, show her that it is worse
    than the others, pull the action onto your lap and fix it, pointing out
    the difference in touch.

    I agree that bad-mouthing the previous technician is psychologically
    terrible. Any disparagement should be left to the customer after
    seeing the improvements you make.Even so, I do nothing to encourage
    it. The closest I got to it was working with a piano prof who was recording
    in his own house, on a very nice B. We found a soft pedal return noise
    which he had never noticed in the years he had played the piano, but
    it was very obvious once noticed, and couldn't be left -- a kind of
    intermittent knocking as the action moved back over to rest. After I
    pulled it, I found that someone had used some lubricant (not dry)
    on the back rail area of the keybed, where it had turned to a glaze,
    and also on the glide inserts. I used graphite on the glide inserts and
    copious 100% pure scentless talcum powder on the back area -- got
    kind of manic with it, actually. Sound disappeared. He said he knew
    who had done that. I told him that the guy hadn't done him any favors.

    If you explain the regulation and she doesn't want it, or not now, well,
    it is her piano and her money. Just say that it can be done at any time
    and if she is ready later just say the word. Tell her the poor regulation
    makes the touch worse but won't harm the instrument -- well, except
    blocking hammers can break a shank now and then.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2019 23:28

    Susan wrote: "When it comes to regulation you need to do some educating. Moving
    the hammer very slowly, explain the dance it should do, what letoff is,
    what drop is, what check distance is, what the distances should be,
    and show the rise from the spring tension when letting up on the key.."

    I used to think that way, too. But after reading Don Miller's Building a StoryBrand, I began to realize that the client didn't need to become a technician to understand why they need the work, or appreciate it afterwards. I've had fair success with simply saying something along the lines of this:

     "The Piano is only playing at 50% (or whatever percent you want) of what it could play at. It will take me about x hours to put it back into it's best state, which is $X. How would you like to proceed?"

    If they ask for more details, I can give them a simple explanation of what everything does, but I try to avoid technical terms. It always leads to the "glazed eyes" syndrome. Most of the time, folks don't ask for the technical details, though. A few do.


    Oh, and I've been selling a lot more work than I was before using the above method; part of which I attribute to lack of the "glazed eyes" syndrome. 


    Just my thoughts. If you find you're able to sell more work by explaining technical details, more power to you! For me, though, this is what works. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Posted 12-06-2019 08:47
    hi Benjamin,
    i have been using pretty much the same approach for many years now.  After reading your post, i was thinking it might be helpful to take my action models with me so i can get it out of my car to show customers what I'm talking about (if there is any interest).
    Any thoughts?
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 7.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Member
    Posted 12-06-2019 10:58
    Thanks Susan for the chopstick suggestion. I tend to agree with Ben and plan to drop two links for them to read while I get the piano apart. The PTG explanation of regulation and total piano care off the internet is good. It gives a time frame with 6 hours listed as the minimum and says the longer a piano goes without regulation,, it takes longer to adjust. 
    Also the teaching piano section on the PTG,, (piano for teaching) great,, she is a teacher

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Posted 12-06-2019 11:19
    Whilst being tangential to this topic, I'm interested particularly by Susan's mention of vodka. Do I understand this to be a method of loosening the felt, softening it. I've used steam successfully on a number of instruments - does steam and vodka result in the same effect? After a few days when excess humidity evaporates from the felts the effect is lessened, but it's a useful softening nevertheless.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 9.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 18:49
    Hi, David

    I call vodka "steam in a bottle." It has some of the same effects, but without the possibility of steam burns. It's also easier to determine just where the solution goes, and a dropper bottle of "vodka" (190 proof ethanol cut half and half with tap water) lives in my kit. No need for other gear, or an outlet for the steam kettle or the hammer iron, or the wet cloth to heat up with the hammer iron.

    The only reason for the alcohol is to thin the solution enough that it will get into the hammer.

    The reason it works has to do with the nature of wool. If you've ever tried to wash a sweater with soap and water, you'll know that the wool fibers kink up and get fluffy when they get wet. For the string grooves in the top octave, a few drops of vodka unpacks the hard surface, so there's a little bit of air in the very top layer. Underneath it's still hard enough to keep some brightness. The alcohol evaporates very quickly (making the room smell like a bar), and the water also dries out fairly soon, leaving behind only the change in texture of the top layer of felt.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 10.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 16:35

    Hi Peter,

    No thoughts in particular. I've not used action models to sell, but I do use a new hammer held up to the old one to sell a new hammer job... occasionally. Action models are big and heavy. If I were to bring them in, my guess is that they would be used for display purposes only. Give them something to look at while I work. I don't think I'd try explaining and showing what I'm doing, as that violates my "too many technical terms" rule. 


    However, I have heard of varying degrees of success using action models to sell. I suppose it depends on your personality and presentation. If you find that you are able to sell more jobs that way, let me know!



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2019 18:30
    I haven't seen the glazed eyes, and the show and tell approach seems to work well for me.

    I'm not a sales person. I'm not there to sell the job. I'm there to explain and offer in a way which leads to the best results for all concerned. The work sells itself, if it's what should be done, and if the choices are explained with clarity.

    YMMV, etc.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 12.  RE: convincing client, best approach

    Member
    Posted 12-06-2019 19:25
    I ended up taking off the string grooves and that mellowed the sound. Couldn't get them to regulate so I didn't do anything more than make the sound acceptable. What's the point? They think it's when you pull out the needles, that's what is needed. 
    I guess I didn't emphasize enough that regulation has to be done before needling or you are adjusting the hammers to something that shouldn't be.
    Like aligning the car before replacing the wheel bearings. 


    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------