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High density brown colored shim stock?

  • 1.  High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 09:20
    We've all seen this high density shim material in various places on older pianos.   It's always brown in color.  Sometimes seen under the stringing felt in the  treble agraffee section.   I've even seen balance rail punchings made out of it.  Looking for a name of this material and a source.


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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 2.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Posted 02-22-2020 09:48
    I don't know for sure what it is, but it sure looks like a version of Masonite.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 3.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 10:40
    Hi David, I believe you are talking about "Fiberboard" Steinway has it in sheets. Also look at book binding suppliers. They offer it several dimensions.

    All the best

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    Mark Adams
    Artist Piano
    Solana Beach CA
    858-583-3333
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  • 4.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 10:55
    Steinway sells a 24" x 40" x 1/32" for $38.
    Gary Bruce
    Registered Piano Technician
    (405) 413-TUNE





  • 5.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 14:12
    Steinway's fiberboard is good stuff. It's the one Steinway part that I have put in other pianos.

    David S., are you referring to the fiber keypin punchings that some high-end manufacturers use in their top pianos? Jurgen can get those.

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 6.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 15:05
    Hi Alan,   Yes that's the material.  No I'm not looking for punchings.  It's an excellat shimming material and would love to have different thicknesses on hand.   Maybe Jürgen would come up with a source.    David

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 7.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 16:19
    David,

    I'm pretty sure that the stuff is "vulcanized fiberboard". Made from cotton (cellulose). There are numerous sources online in thicknesses from .010" - .500".  It is often used as an electrical insulator.  Has properties akin to phenolic resin too. Keyword is "vulcanized".

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 8.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2020 20:51
    Hi Peter,

    Yes the word Phenolic hits on of the qualities of that stuff...  very stable good material.    

    thanks,

    David

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 9.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2020 13:05
    So I'm pretty certain that what I'm looking for is paper based phenolic sheet.  I just put in an order with mcmaster.com for three 24"x24"sheets of brown "Garolite XX" in 1/32",1/16", & 1/8"  price without shipping is $38.    Mcmaster.com is an excellant source for all kinds of materials and tools.

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 10.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-28-2020 15:21
    So I recieved my material from McMaster.   Very nice shim material but the phenolic make it a bit stiff for my purpose.  So it's some kind of dense paper I'm looking for.  I'll keep looking...

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 11.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-28-2020 20:15
    McMaster also has the vulcanized sheets. It looks like they are somewhat less hard than the phenolic and slightly lower tensile strength.
    https://www.mcmaster.com/vulcanized-fiber

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 12.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Posted 02-28-2020 20:42
    FWIW, i have abandoned copying the Steinway masonite sheets.  The main reason was because they are too thin, and I disliked the string going upwards to the coil. I have tried other materials, but what i have settled on is just hard maple, mostly because its widely available in my shop. I figured if its good enough for bridge caps. So i cut it to the desired shape, and then sand it to a wedge ( from zero to 1/4"). takes all of two minutes on my sander.  Makes stringing much easier when the strings run parallel to the plate.
    -chris

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    If it's pinging, it's not singing, it's just ringing,
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Knoxville, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-29-2020 01:25
    I don't use the Masonite covered with felt either but make a brass piece which has a natural lubricity and then simply use a piece of felt (see photo). It produces a better string angle to the pin too. 



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 14.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-29-2020 06:28
    Hi David,

    So I'lm looking for a material 2mm in thickness that will form itself to the steinway rail form  when flange screws tightened against it.   I want to shim out my wippen flanges  to expand the spread.

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 15.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Posted 02-29-2020 10:48
    I doubt you'll find anything that thickness that will conform to the contour. Why not place heavy sandpaper strips above and below the screws?

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 16.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Posted 02-29-2020 13:24
    Or strips of fabric soaked in lacquer, CA glue, wood hardener etc.?

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 17.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-01-2020 01:51

    David S. 


    I see. When I do that I only shim the top of the flange as that's all you need to do to move the flange out. It's not necessary to shim out the entire flange, top and bottom.


    I usually use thin brass stock (or even thin coat hanger wire) which rests nicely in the small indentation at the top of the rail. 

    https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Metals-1160-Length-bundle/dp/B0006N6S5M/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?keywords=1%2F16+brass+rod&qid=1583046487&sr=8-4


    Thin wooden applicator sticks also work

    https://www.puritanmedproducts.com/807.html


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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 18.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-01-2020 09:19
    I use copper EMI shielding tape or Stained glass copper foil.

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    Mark Adams
    Artist Piano
    Solana Beach CA
    858-583-3333
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  • 19.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Posted 03-01-2020 09:33
    I know this is not the explicit question, re changing S&S spread, but if you check out the article I wrote a couple of months ago in the journal, and adhere to the concepts presented in the article, as long as the 110mm spread does not cause the end of the rep lever to hit the hammer rail, there is a good chance that the 110 will be fine. "Fine" means, that spread is about jack functionality. Prove the functionality as per the parameters in the article, and the 110 will be fine. Additionally S&S rails are low profile compared to other rails, so rep lever/hammer rail interference is afforded greater leeway with S&S rails.

    When I was still rebuilding these frames, I had well regarded Steinway specialist rebuilders who agreed that in many cases 110mm on an S&S frame is fine, and allowed the  jack functionality to perform as well as at 112mm, and actually requested the 110. 

    Regarding any leverage difference caused by the 2mm spread discrepency, moving the whip itself has such a tiny effect on leverage, compared to capstan placement, knuckle distance, and balance rail pivot location, that its practically un-measureable.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 20.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-01-2020 09:59
    Thanks very much Jim for sharing the benefit of your experiences,

    There was a case a few years back of a technician who widened the spread by 1mm.  This was the only thing done and the client felt the piano was transformed.   I may do the same in this case because it would be a good experiment to change just the spread and assess the quality difference.  The piano owner is a fine pianist as well as a technician.    Will keep you all posted.

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    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
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  • 21.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Posted 03-01-2020 10:31
    For what its worth,  because I work on a lot of Chickering flared actions, I was forced early on to experiment with spread and the article's "purple" line location at rest. This means I had to deviate from the parts design spread, and center height differential.  I won't go into the article's parameters and the argument presented, but in these Chickering actions one is forced, when using modern parts to have the article's "purple" line move significantly towards the belly (distally) relative to the normal position of "just distal to the jack center".  110mm will in effect do the same thing, as long as there is no interference at the hammer rail. In my opinion, this "deviant position" helps make the letoff bump a little less aggressive, which in my book is a good thing. I do not notice a cost in power.

    I will be interested to hear your take on this after you try it.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 22.  RE: High density brown colored shim stock?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-01-2020 11:54
    Of course increasing the spread also lowers the AR so you will take some of the static touch weight off and lower the inertia.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------