Pianotech

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work. 

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Floyd

For what it's worth, the late Bill Garlick told me that to achieve after touch, there is nothing wrong with removing a thin front rail punching. In other words, the fudge would be dip. He said a pianist is not going to feel that a key goes down .003 more or less, but will feel the lack of after touch.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Thanks, Wim!

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:57
From: Willem Blees
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Floyd

For what it's worth, the late Bill Garlick told me that to achieve after touch, there is nothing wrong with removing a thin front rail punching. In other words, the fudge would be dip. He said a pianist is not going to feel that a key goes down .003 more or less, but will feel the lack of after touch.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

I agree with Wim about minimal changes to dip. Also, if fudge can be spread to two or three places, each may have too little for anyone but some prodigiously sensitive and accurate pianist to notice. A minor change to letoff (stress on MINOR) might be part of the mix.

This is assuming that things which are glaringly obvious, like voicing and unison tuning and uniform spring tension and hammer center friction and choice and evenness of drop have been meticulously taken care of. Smother the fudge in a flood of virtues.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:57
From: Willem Blees
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Floyd

For what it's worth, the late Bill Garlick told me that to achieve after touch, there is nothing wrong with removing a thin front rail punching. In other words, the fudge would be dip. He said a pianist is not going to feel that a key goes down .003 more or less, but will feel the lack of after touch.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 5/28/2020 1:57:00 PM
From: Willem Blees
Subject: RE: The Art of the Fudge

Floyd

For what it's worth, the late Bill Garlick told me that to achieve after touch, there is nothing wrong with removing a thin front rail punching. In other words, the fudge would be dip. He said a pianist is not going to feel that a key goes down .003 more or less, but will feel the lack of after touch.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow. 

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met. 

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows: 

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Just to follow up on my previous post...I don't necessarily care if the hammer line is even. That comment may send me to the dogs, but an even hammer line's only utility is make it visually clear if the hammer line is stable, and satisfy our inner anal critic. Most of the time, when things aren't just perfect,  a gradually wandering hammer line, which follows action ratio wandering, makes it past the visual test. and also allows you to observe whether hammers are returning exactly to rest position each time.  But setting the whole thing up to conform to a conjectural hammer line as step one, seems to me to put the cart before the horse.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Further to Jon,

This is very much a learning project.  This piano represents the first time I have moved a capstan line, the first time I have used veneer to shim the balance rail, the first time I have deliberately replaced shanks to correct knuckle position, and the first time I have excavated material along the lengths of the ribs of the soundboard in order to apply epoxy for structural soundness.  I might as well work things through to see how it all turns out.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:17
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

1) Check that the knuckles are in a straight line.
2) Check that the back of the hammer flanges are in a straight line.
Best

------------------------------
Mark Adams
Artist Piano
Solana Beach CA
858-583-3333
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Further to Jon,

This is very much a learning project.  This piano represents the first time I have moved a capstan line, the first time I have used veneer to shim the balance rail, the first time I have deliberately replaced shanks to correct knuckle position, and the first time I have excavated material along the lengths of the ribs of the soundboard in order to apply epoxy for structural soundness.  I might as well work things through to see how it all turns out.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:17
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

My take is that if you are going to move capstans around, you should have everything else like blow and Aftertouch worked out. Either with an adjustable action model or software. Weightbench says that 9.5 to 10.5 is the accepted range for keydip.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:29
From: Mark Adams
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

1) Check that the knuckles are in a straight line.
2) Check that the back of the hammer flanges are in a straight line.
Best

------------------------------
Mark Adams
Artist Piano
Solana Beach CA
858-583-3333

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Further to Jon,

This is very much a learning project.  This piano represents the first time I have moved a capstan line, the first time I have used veneer to shim the balance rail, the first time I have deliberately replaced shanks to correct knuckle position, and the first time I have excavated material along the lengths of the ribs of the soundboard in order to apply epoxy for structural soundness.  I might as well work things through to see how it all turns out.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:17
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Thanks Chris!

I worked through the information presented by Nick Gravagne in his recent series in the journal before setting out to change action dimensions.  Jim Ialeggio's article on spread was really helpful as well, as someone had modified the spread on this action in an unhelpful way.  I ended up with a really friendly set of regulating specs -- dip is 10.3mm, blow is about 44.5mm, and aftertouch is 1.15mm.  Hammer bore distance was 62mm at the top of the overstung section, and long enough in the other sections that I ended up with a bit more mass in the hammer mouldings that I have usually encountered, but I was still able to get the weight profile down to Stanwood 7, with a little modification in the treble, though it didn't have to be much.  I chose a key frontweight of Stanwood's ceiling minus 3 grams, with a modest climb in the high treble to account for the adjusted hammer weight there.  I'm really pleased at how it has all worked out.

My question in this thread had to do only with the normal variation that presents itself in a less than perfect system.  I have been delighted with the way you and the others have chimed in to help me do some fresh thinking about where the final details will land.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:35
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

My take is that if you are going to move capstans around, you should have everything else like blow and Aftertouch worked out. Either with an adjustable action model or software. Weightbench says that 9.5 to 10.5 is the accepted range for keydip.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:29
From: Mark Adams
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

1) Check that the knuckles are in a straight line.
2) Check that the back of the hammer flanges are in a straight line.
Best

------------------------------
Mark Adams
Artist Piano
Solana Beach CA
858-583-3333

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Further to Jon,

This is very much a learning project.  This piano represents the first time I have moved a capstan line, the first time I have used veneer to shim the balance rail, the first time I have deliberately replaced shanks to correct knuckle position, and the first time I have excavated material along the lengths of the ribs of the soundboard in order to apply epoxy for structural soundness.  I might as well work things through to see how it all turns out.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:17
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

I looked closer at the photo. You need to rehang/burn-in those hammers to straighten them out.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2020 00:53
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks Chris!

I worked through the information presented by Nick Gravagne in his recent series in the journal before setting out to change action dimensions.  Jim Ialeggio's article on spread was really helpful as well, as someone had modified the spread on this action in an unhelpful way.  I ended up with a really friendly set of regulating specs -- dip is 10.3mm, blow is about 44.5mm, and aftertouch is 1.15mm.  Hammer bore distance was 62mm at the top of the overstung section, and long enough in the other sections that I ended up with a bit more mass in the hammer mouldings that I have usually encountered, but I was still able to get the weight profile down to Stanwood 7, with a little modification in the treble, though it didn't have to be much.  I chose a key frontweight of Stanwood's ceiling minus 3 grams, with a modest climb in the high treble to account for the adjusted hammer weight there.  I'm really pleased at how it has all worked out.

My question in this thread had to do only with the normal variation that presents itself in a less than perfect system.  I have been delighted with the way you and the others have chimed in to help me do some fresh thinking about where the final details will land.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:35
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

My take is that if you are going to move capstans around, you should have everything else like blow and Aftertouch worked out. Either with an adjustable action model or software. Weightbench says that 9.5 to 10.5 is the accepted range for keydip.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:29
From: Mark Adams
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

1) Check that the knuckles are in a straight line.
2) Check that the back of the hammer flanges are in a straight line.
Best

------------------------------
Mark Adams
Artist Piano
Solana Beach CA
858-583-3333

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Further to Jon,

This is very much a learning project.  This piano represents the first time I have moved a capstan line, the first time I have used veneer to shim the balance rail, the first time I have deliberately replaced shanks to correct knuckle position, and the first time I have excavated material along the lengths of the ribs of the soundboard in order to apply epoxy for structural soundness.  I might as well work things through to see how it all turns out.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:17
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

I have had a couple extraordinary pianists in my shop, and what was important to them was evenness of the aftertouch. They are very sensitive to the nth degree on it.. It really surprised me. That is what prompted me to get a jaras keydip tool. Also, i used the same method as you using a punching until it blocks. But to get it more accurate you need to use a lead weight. 
Changing hammer blow distance does have an effect on volume. But not too noticeable when just fudging. Looks like you could increase the dip just a hair too.
-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2020 06:08
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I looked closer at the photo. You need to rehang/burn-in those hammers to straighten them out.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2020 00:53
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks Chris!

I worked through the information presented by Nick Gravagne in his recent series in the journal before setting out to change action dimensions.  Jim Ialeggio's article on spread was really helpful as well, as someone had modified the spread on this action in an unhelpful way.  I ended up with a really friendly set of regulating specs -- dip is 10.3mm, blow is about 44.5mm, and aftertouch is 1.15mm.  Hammer bore distance was 62mm at the top of the overstung section, and long enough in the other sections that I ended up with a bit more mass in the hammer mouldings that I have usually encountered, but I was still able to get the weight profile down to Stanwood 7, with a little modification in the treble, though it didn't have to be much.  I chose a key frontweight of Stanwood's ceiling minus 3 grams, with a modest climb in the high treble to account for the adjusted hammer weight there.  I'm really pleased at how it has all worked out.

My question in this thread had to do only with the normal variation that presents itself in a less than perfect system.  I have been delighted with the way you and the others have chimed in to help me do some fresh thinking about where the final details will land.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:35
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

My take is that if you are going to move capstans around, you should have everything else like blow and Aftertouch worked out. Either with an adjustable action model or software. Weightbench says that 9.5 to 10.5 is the accepted range for keydip.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 19:29
From: Mark Adams
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

1) Check that the knuckles are in a straight line.
2) Check that the back of the hammer flanges are in a straight line.
Best

------------------------------
Mark Adams
Artist Piano
Solana Beach CA
858-583-3333

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Further to Jon,

This is very much a learning project.  This piano represents the first time I have moved a capstan line, the first time I have used veneer to shim the balance rail, the first time I have deliberately replaced shanks to correct knuckle position, and the first time I have excavated material along the lengths of the ribs of the soundboard in order to apply epoxy for structural soundness.  I might as well work things through to see how it all turns out.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:17
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thanks, Jon.

This piano is a warm-up to the next three, all of which will be subject to a great deal more scrutiny by users.

Floyd

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 17:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I would set an even hammer line, which may not be parallel to the key bed due to string height. (The next tech might not understand the reason for the erratic setting). L/O is set consistently even. Adjust AT with a small 'dip block' attached to a stick to fit around the pin (U-shaped) for the amount of AT you desire. As mentioned, a variation in dip is not felt as much as a variation if AT.  Keep all regulation aspects consistent, vary AT. AT is the equalizer.

If your hammer line is up & down, the angle of each shank will be starting from a different location, think spacial motion (or whatever the term might be). You want all parts moving thru the same 'quadrant'. Which is why tapering the hammer bore would place the shanks on an even field. Consistency in angular motion.

Is the Heintzman worth this much scrutiny?  Will anyone notice?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:47
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Susan, Alan and Jim.

Based on what you all have been saying about the priority of aftertouch, I think I'll finish this cycle through the regulation as follows:

1. Set a smooth hammerline
2. Set letoff and drop
3. Focus on consistent aftertouch.  Where adjustment is needed:
   1. Start with dip, allowing it to vary up to .005 in either direction in the pursuit of desired aftertouch. 
   2. No one has mentioned sharp key height, but after I wrote my post, it occurred to me that after establishing a height of 1/2" (i.e. 12.7 mm, which this action seems to need to work out right on most notes), reducing it when necessary up by about .003" can buy me a bit of wiggle room.
   3. If I still need a little more leeway, I can widen letoff just a smidge, if that's the direction things need to go.
   4. Anything that these fudges don't clean up can be worked out by sacrificing the perfection of the hammer line.

Does that seem to make sense?


------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 15:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

For me, after touch, and the whole dynamic, and feel around jack escapement define what the action feels like in play, so I prioritize aftertouch.

On the other hand, I can not even remotely ascertain blow distance experienced as a pianist at the key.  Put another way if you add to or take away 1/8" from blow, you will have changed blow by 6%.  Add to or subtract from aftertouch by .020, which really does not buy that much blow change, and you have changed aftertouch  by 30-50% depending on how much aftertouch you target. I have also not been able to hear significant power differences in changes in blow.

Re dip: I only mess with dip in very small increments, to assure my priotizied aftertouch is met.

Blow always takes the hit, unless it has to be increased too much, and the hammer ends up with interference at the tail. In that case, I go back and fix the ratio problem before regulating.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 14:41
From: Alan Eder
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Hi Floyd,

First, allow me to compliment you on your excellent subject line! I have posed this question in past as, "Where do you hide the bodies?" which has, predictably. met with resistance from certain quarters due to the violent implications. I will go with, "The Art of the Fudge" from here on out (although with a subject line like that, I did find myself expecting your secret family recipe for the chocolate delight!).

Different people have different priorities, but most will likely agree about prioritizing after-touch. In order to achieve this, regulation must be spot on in all relevant respects, and the parts themselves have to be consistent as well. Regulation (including friction and the exact position of the parts) is within our immediate sphere of influence. Inconsistency of parts manufacture is something we have to work around (and avoid like the plague when selecting new parts).

Personally, in addition to prioritizing after-touch, I do not mess with consistent, appropriate let-off (although, in the words of David Andersen, "you can use drop to sculpt the sensation of let-off"). A slight, almost imaginary move with the capstan wrench (or "after-touch adjuster," as Dale Erwin calls it) can make a noticeable difference in AT. Like Wim, I will vary key dip, by +/- .005", in the service of AT. If dip is 10 mm (.400"), that would translate to appx. +/- 1% of dip. Most pianists will notice a difference in AT before noticing a minor variation in KD.

Hope that helps,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

The uneven hammer line is often because of inaccurate setting of the balancier height which should be done by "rolling the jack" so it just causes the hammer to wink but doesn't hang up going back underneath the knuckle.  Poorly and unevenly regulated rep springs can also contribute.   Blow distance is often set early in the sequence so you have to expect to make fine adjustments especially after setting the balancier height and rep spring  tension.  Some areas of regulation require a two pass approach.

Otherwise I think it's best to set all your regulation specs first: hammer and wippen spacing and travel, key level, blow, let-off, drop, etc and set the key dip last by using aftertouch as the guide.  In other words, let aftertouch determine your key dip.  Depending on the action ratio you ended up with the key dip might have to vary.  As has been mentioned, use a cardboard punching and cut out a section so it can easily slip into place without having to place it over the key pin.  Do as you did using a weight or consistent finger pressure to just get the hammer to just let off with a punching from .030" to .045".  My default is usually .040".  If you set it at .030" (or less) you'll have to monitor the blow distance over time as any increase there can result in inadequate escapement, especially on soft blows, and you'll get some bobbling.  Some pianists prefer different levels of aftertouch but all want some and recall that the purpose of aftertouch is jack clearance from the knuckle.  You need enough to ensure that the jack doesn't remain under the knuckle but excess clearance is wasted movement.  While pianists are sensitive to key dip, the key dip on pianos with different action ratios is always somewhat different and most of those compromises end up there rather than blow distance. 

In practice it doesn't really matter that much if you fudge from the dip or the blow unless it's extreme.  With the trend to lower and lower action ratios, especially as people obsess about lower and lower inertia, the dip has gotten deeper and I've seen some actions with 11+mm key dip that I found unpleasant.  It feels like you get buried in the keys and that can impede facility in rapid passage work.  On the other hand too shallow a dip can be unpleasant as well, but it really depends on the action  set up and what the pianist is used too.  It wasn't that long ago that 3/8" (9.25 mm) was the norm.  With the move toward lower action ratios most actions come in between 10 and 10.5 mm.  I think that's a reasonable target.  The best way to get that is to ensure that your action ratio falls in some normal area.  If you have a very low AR you'll be compensating somewhere else if you don't want the key dip to become excessive.  On an older action that has a 6.0+ AR you'll likely be regulating with shallower key dip.  

Changing the blow will change the touchweight some, depending on how much you change it.  Longer blow will add some gram resistance at the initiation of the key stroke and short blow will do the opposite.  I thinking keeping the blow somewhat standard is probably a good idea generally.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Thank you, Mark and David, for your responses.  I am grateful to be a part of this online community, and for the engagement of all who are participating.

Jon:  You're right.  I need to burn in my hammers before I go any farther.

Jim:  This whole interchange made it to our evening family ritual of "Three Good Things".  Thanks so much for introducing us to this idea.

I have learned and benefited from every contribution to this conversation.  My regulation will end up with the most consistent aftertouch I can produce.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2020 13:02
From: David Love
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

The uneven hammer line is often because of inaccurate setting of the balancier height which should be done by "rolling the jack" so it just causes the hammer to wink but doesn't hang up going back underneath the knuckle.  Poorly and unevenly regulated rep springs can also contribute.   Blow distance is often set early in the sequence so you have to expect to make fine adjustments especially after setting the balancier height and rep spring  tension.  Some areas of regulation require a two pass approach.

Otherwise I think it's best to set all your regulation specs first: hammer and wippen spacing and travel, key level, blow, let-off, drop, etc and set the key dip last by using aftertouch as the guide.  In other words, let aftertouch determine your key dip.  Depending on the action ratio you ended up with the key dip might have to vary.  As has been mentioned, use a cardboard punching and cut out a section so it can easily slip into place without having to place it over the key pin.  Do as you did using a weight or consistent finger pressure to just get the hammer to just let off with a punching from .030" to .045".  My default is usually .040".  If you set it at .030" (or less) you'll have to monitor the blow distance over time as any increase there can result in inadequate escapement, especially on soft blows, and you'll get some bobbling.  Some pianists prefer different levels of aftertouch but all want some and recall that the purpose of aftertouch is jack clearance from the knuckle.  You need enough to ensure that the jack doesn't remain under the knuckle but excess clearance is wasted movement.  While pianists are sensitive to key dip, the key dip on pianos with different action ratios is always somewhat different and most of those compromises end up there rather than blow distance.

In practice it doesn't really matter that much if you fudge from the dip or the blow unless it's extreme.  With the trend to lower and lower action ratios, especially as people obsess about lower and lower inertia, the dip has gotten deeper and I've seen some actions with 11+mm key dip that I found unpleasant.  It feels like you get buried in the keys and that can impede facility in rapid passage work.  On the other hand too shallow a dip can be unpleasant as well, but it really depends on the action  set up and what the pianist is used too.  It wasn't that long ago that 3/8" (9.25 mm) was the norm.  With the move toward lower action ratios most actions come in between 10 and 10.5 mm.  I think that's a reasonable target.  The best way to get that is to ensure that your action ratio falls in some normal area.  If you have a very low AR you'll be compensating somewhere else if you don't want the key dip to become excessive.  On an older action that has a 6.0+ AR you'll likely be regulating with shallower key dip.

Changing the blow will change the touchweight some, depending on how much you change it.  Longer blow will add some gram resistance at the initiation of the key stroke and short blow will do the opposite.  I thinking keeping the blow somewhat standard is probably a good idea generally.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Burning-in can be done on hammers that are off 1~2 degrees. 3 degrees or more and you should remove them and rehang them.​

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-01-2020 22:25
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Mark and David, for your responses.  I am grateful to be a part of this online community, and for the engagement of all who are participating.

Jon:  You're right.  I need to burn in my hammers before I go any farther.

Jim:  This whole interchange made it to our evening family ritual of "Three Good Things".  Thanks so much for introducing us to this idea.

I have learned and benefited from every contribution to this conversation.  My regulation will end up with the most consistent aftertouch I can produce.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2020 13:02
From: David Love
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

The uneven hammer line is often because of inaccurate setting of the balancier height which should be done by "rolling the jack" so it just causes the hammer to wink but doesn't hang up going back underneath the knuckle.  Poorly and unevenly regulated rep springs can also contribute.   Blow distance is often set early in the sequence so you have to expect to make fine adjustments especially after setting the balancier height and rep spring  tension.  Some areas of regulation require a two pass approach.

Otherwise I think it's best to set all your regulation specs first: hammer and wippen spacing and travel, key level, blow, let-off, drop, etc and set the key dip last by using aftertouch as the guide.  In other words, let aftertouch determine your key dip.  Depending on the action ratio you ended up with the key dip might have to vary.  As has been mentioned, use a cardboard punching and cut out a section so it can easily slip into place without having to place it over the key pin.  Do as you did using a weight or consistent finger pressure to just get the hammer to just let off with a punching from .030" to .045".  My default is usually .040".  If you set it at .030" (or less) you'll have to monitor the blow distance over time as any increase there can result in inadequate escapement, especially on soft blows, and you'll get some bobbling.  Some pianists prefer different levels of aftertouch but all want some and recall that the purpose of aftertouch is jack clearance from the knuckle.  You need enough to ensure that the jack doesn't remain under the knuckle but excess clearance is wasted movement.  While pianists are sensitive to key dip, the key dip on pianos with different action ratios is always somewhat different and most of those compromises end up there rather than blow distance.

In practice it doesn't really matter that much if you fudge from the dip or the blow unless it's extreme.  With the trend to lower and lower action ratios, especially as people obsess about lower and lower inertia, the dip has gotten deeper and I've seen some actions with 11+mm key dip that I found unpleasant.  It feels like you get buried in the keys and that can impede facility in rapid passage work.  On the other hand too shallow a dip can be unpleasant as well, but it really depends on the action  set up and what the pianist is used too.  It wasn't that long ago that 3/8" (9.25 mm) was the norm.  With the move toward lower action ratios most actions come in between 10 and 10.5 mm.  I think that's a reasonable target.  The best way to get that is to ensure that your action ratio falls in some normal area.  If you have a very low AR you'll be compensating somewhere else if you don't want the key dip to become excessive.  On an older action that has a 6.0+ AR you'll likely be regulating with shallower key dip.

Changing the blow will change the touchweight some, depending on how much you change it.  Longer blow will add some gram resistance at the initiation of the key stroke and short blow will do the opposite.  I thinking keeping the blow somewhat standard is probably a good idea generally.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

I agree...they are all over the place. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 07:15
From: Jon Page
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Burning-in can be done on hammers that are off 1~2 degrees. 3 degrees or more and you should remove them and rehang them.​

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-01-2020 22:25
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

Thank you, Mark and David, for your responses.  I am grateful to be a part of this online community, and for the engagement of all who are participating.

Jon:  You're right.  I need to burn in my hammers before I go any farther.

Jim:  This whole interchange made it to our evening family ritual of "Three Good Things".  Thanks so much for introducing us to this idea.

I have learned and benefited from every contribution to this conversation.  My regulation will end up with the most consistent aftertouch I can produce.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2020 13:02
From: David Love
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

The uneven hammer line is often because of inaccurate setting of the balancier height which should be done by "rolling the jack" so it just causes the hammer to wink but doesn't hang up going back underneath the knuckle.  Poorly and unevenly regulated rep springs can also contribute.   Blow distance is often set early in the sequence so you have to expect to make fine adjustments especially after setting the balancier height and rep spring  tension.  Some areas of regulation require a two pass approach.

Otherwise I think it's best to set all your regulation specs first: hammer and wippen spacing and travel, key level, blow, let-off, drop, etc and set the key dip last by using aftertouch as the guide.  In other words, let aftertouch determine your key dip.  Depending on the action ratio you ended up with the key dip might have to vary.  As has been mentioned, use a cardboard punching and cut out a section so it can easily slip into place without having to place it over the key pin.  Do as you did using a weight or consistent finger pressure to just get the hammer to just let off with a punching from .030" to .045".  My default is usually .040".  If you set it at .030" (or less) you'll have to monitor the blow distance over time as any increase there can result in inadequate escapement, especially on soft blows, and you'll get some bobbling.  Some pianists prefer different levels of aftertouch but all want some and recall that the purpose of aftertouch is jack clearance from the knuckle.  You need enough to ensure that the jack doesn't remain under the knuckle but excess clearance is wasted movement.  While pianists are sensitive to key dip, the key dip on pianos with different action ratios is always somewhat different and most of those compromises end up there rather than blow distance.

In practice it doesn't really matter that much if you fudge from the dip or the blow unless it's extreme.  With the trend to lower and lower action ratios, especially as people obsess about lower and lower inertia, the dip has gotten deeper and I've seen some actions with 11+mm key dip that I found unpleasant.  It feels like you get buried in the keys and that can impede facility in rapid passage work.  On the other hand too shallow a dip can be unpleasant as well, but it really depends on the action  set up and what the pianist is used too.  It wasn't that long ago that 3/8" (9.25 mm) was the norm.  With the move toward lower action ratios most actions come in between 10 and 10.5 mm.  I think that's a reasonable target.  The best way to get that is to ensure that your action ratio falls in some normal area.  If you have a very low AR you'll be compensating somewhere else if you don't want the key dip to become excessive.  On an older action that has a 6.0+ AR you'll likely be regulating with shallower key dip.

Changing the blow will change the touchweight some, depending on how much you change it.  Longer blow will add some gram resistance at the initiation of the key stroke and short blow will do the opposite.  I thinking keeping the blow somewhat standard is probably a good idea generally.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2020 13:00
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: The Art of the Fudge

I have the opportunity to obsess on the action that sits on my workbench.  It is from a 1925 Gerhar Heintzman grand piano.  I have reset the action spread, moved the capstan line, custom bored new hammers, installed new shanks, finessed the touch weight, shimmed the  balance rail (sharps only) with veneer, and ended up with ratios that work.

I'm working through the cycles of regulation, and enjoying the journey.  On the current cycle, I have fine tuned  repetition lever height, key height and dip, letoff and drop for the first 15 notes in the bass.  Using a cardboard punching, I've set the aftertouch to .045" (300 gram weight on the front of the key, light tap to achieve letoff.)

It is no longer ever a surprise that the hammer line does not come out perfectly.  I have attached a photo. There are always some inconsistencies somewhere in the execution of the design.  For what it's worth, the highest hammers are sitting at 1 3/4 inches

Here's my question:  Where are your preferred places to fudge, and in what direction.  I'm taking it as a given that key height is sacrosanct.  I have read various people arguing that dip, after touch, let off and hammer line are untouchable.  But we all know that something has to give.

My inclination is to fudge the aftertouch, raising the capstans for the hammers that are sitting low to achieve a consistent hammer blow of 1 3/4 inches.  But I'm most interested in your responses.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------