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Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

  • 1.  Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-11-2021 08:25
    For 20+ years I have just about always tuned a piano the same day that I had done a pitch raise on it - regardless of the amount of pitch raising. The past few months, without really planning on it, I have been scheduling the tuning for a couple weeks after a large pitch raise (lets say greater than 50 cents). The reason being that the couple week wait will give the piano a chance to stablize somewhat and the resulting tuning will hopefully last longer.

    My general understanding is that was the standard way to do it in decades past. In the last few decades, my understanding is that waiting a couple weeks to tune has gone into disfavor and most techs will tune the piano the same day the pitch has been raised.

    What do you folks do? Do some schedule a delayed tuning on a large pitch raise?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2021 08:59
    Hi Terrance:
    I like to leave the piano sounding as good as possible when I leave. Unless I am unable to put a final tune because I'm late or need to leave for some reason. I've come across pianos that were recently tuned, but the owner was unhappy with the tuner. They said he would come back and tune it again soon. I got the sense that they didn't understand what was happening, that the "pitch raise" wasn't the final tuning. Anyway, that's what I do. I tell the owner that the piano may be a little unstable, and it will need tuning again within a few months or even sooner.
    My Way.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Terrence Farrell
    For 20+ years I have just about always tuned a piano the same day that I had done a pitch raise on it - regardless of the amount of pitch raising. The past few months, without really planning on it, I have been scheduling the tuning for a couple weeks after a large pitch raise (lets say greater than 50 cents). The reason being that the couple week wait will give the piano a chance to stablize somewhat and the resulting tuning will hopefully last longer.

    My general understanding is that was the standard way to do it in decades past. In the last few decades, my understanding is that waiting a couple weeks to tune has gone into disfavor and most techs will tune the piano the same day the pitch has been raised.

    What do you folks do? Do some schedule a delayed tuning on a large pitch raise?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------

    R




  • 3.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-11-2021 09:38
    I think it depend on the client's goals.

    There are pianos like your Wurly, which was tuned at the factory, and never tuned again. These clients are not requesting a tuning fully stabilized at pitch. So, I would just do a two or three pass tuning with standard overpulls in one session, as it simply doesn't matter to the client if the piano sinks in pitch, as it most definitely will, even with the multiple passes. It will sound pretty good when you leave, and okay in a couple of months. It you educate the client about how nice a stabilized piano sounds all the time, you may have them request that tuning service, but these folks right now sound as if they just don't want it to sound horrible.

    Then there are customers with ears and who play all the time, for whom a stable tuning means, stable at or near pitch, and stable in the sense that the tuning never really even gets close to sounding bad. I show up, as I did, for a post covid tuning (I did not tune at all during the pandemic), 1.5 years out from the last excellent stable tuning. Because I have been allowed to stabilize the piano over a number of years, its a full service customer, I literally, 1.5 years out, mostly only had to ease strings gently over the friction bearings...very little pin turning. The piano was pretty damn close to where I put it 1.5 yrs ago.  Yes is it s nice grand, DC & undercover, but the previous stabilizing I was allowed to install was what allowed me to get it to the point where pins are almost not turned at all, or they are turned in very very tiny increments...no pin rotational excursions looking for pitch target locations. This sets the NSL tension levels up that are known, and non-ambiguous, leading to a very stable result. But real stability is a process that takes a while to install in any piano. 

    I think the answer to your question is,  that it depends on what your client s is asking for musically, and depends on how you have educated them. 

    I like your idea of going back after a couple of weeks to try and stabilize the thing. I would do a two or three pass tuning the first day, then go back a couple of weeks out, if they were of a mind to start the stabilizing process. Another stability biggy, and this applies to nice, well cared for grands as well, especially European grands, is to do a regular tuning, and go back a week out or so to fix stragglers. This will results in my most stable tunings.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-11-2021 11:11
    I do the same thing as Paul.

    With any good ETD, it is possible to leave a piano in at least decent shape with a couple of passes. UNLESS...it's well over 100 cents flat, or you get extremely lucky with the second pass of the ETD. If 100+ flat, then it's three passes, but it'll at least sound good.

    I always tell the customer it will need tuning again soon.

    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany, MS





  • 5.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-11-2021 10:15
    Hello Terry. 
    Even though there's no doubt in my mind that letting the piano settle after a large pitch correction and make a separate appointment for fine tuning after a couple of weeks, I do the pitch correction (s) and tuning during one appointment.  I will discuss with the piano owner that a retuning will most likely be necessary after 1 to 6 months.
    I used to do pitch corrections in one appointment and then schedule a fine tuning after two weeks but several times, the fine tuning appointment was canceled, leaving the piano, in my opinion, not tuned properly which is sub-standard and not good for building a good reputation. 
    Peter

    ------------------------------
    Petrus Janssen
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2021 11:20
    If the piano has been in the home for years and suddenly needs a pitch raise I already know that the owner is not that critical. I do the pitch raise, followed immediately by a fine tuning and then explain why the piano MAY go out sooner than expected, which should be considered normal, and to call me if it gets too far out before the next scheduled tuning. Most of the time the customer understands. When I, more often than not, when I come back for the next tuning in, say, six months I am usually amazed at how well the piano held. I almost never experience the drift I was taught to expect from a pitch raise. But then the weather on this other coast is a bit more stable than Florida, which probably helps.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-11-2021 11:56
    Like Paul, I want the piano to sound as good as possible when I'm done, so I stick with pitch correcting until I can fine tune with the pitch within just a few cents. I'm not comfortable leaving a piano incompletely tuned. And as Petrus said, I would be concerned that a followup appointment is not a sure thing, and if it is cancelled, neither I or likely the customer are going to be satisfied. In addition to these considerations, it is a more efficient use of my time to do the job properly in one visit.

    I do explain to the customer that today's tuning is likely to not be as stable as it otherwise would/will be with regular tunings. I strongly recommend retuning at 6 months or sooner if the customer wants it.

    I should add that I've always been a part-time tuner, so I have the luxury to schedule a new tuning as the last tuning I do that day. That way I'll have ample time since I'm not pressed to get it done before another appointment or I don't have the time I need.

    ------------------------------
    David Bauguess
    Grand Junction CO
    970-257-1750
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2021 16:35
    I believe it's best to do the raise and fine tune at the same time with no break at all between the first and second pass.  I charge for an extra 30 mins over my basic tuning rate, it's a lot more economical than charging double for 2 trips.  It seems to me that most of the change takes place within about 20 minutes of tuning a given string so by the time I start the second pass the wires themselves have done the Hook's Law thing and the second pass is adjusting for discrepancies in the various segments. If you wait a couple of weeks, or even a couple of hours, these discrepancies bleed out into other segments and you actually lose ground. 
    That said, the piano is likely to change noticeably with a 50+ pitch raise over time. We are shooting at a moving target,  a good tuning is one in which the piano tends to fall into tune rather than fall out of tune so I'm not so concerned if certain sections are a little out when I finish if I feel that it will sound better in a week than if I hew to a strict tuning at that minute. And I don't race through the first pass, I try to hit my targets and pay attention to pin setting and equalizing the segments, then the second pass goes quickly and if there's a problem area I know it's not because it's something I glossed over in the first pass.
     Often I'll tell the owners that it would be best to tune the piano again sooner than later but I guarantee that I won't charge the pitch raise fee if they tune the piano again within a year. Of course it's a safe bet that it won't get that far out again in 12 months.  My speech these days goes something like: the more you tune a piano, the better it stays in tune; everything in the piano has a memory (as well as the whole system). If the piano hasn't been tuned in a long time the system is in  a chaotic state and will tend to want to return to the chaotic state after it's been tuned. On the other hand, if you tune the instrument regularly, it will tend to stay in tune (all the elements in a state of harmony) even if, after many regular tunings you miss a year, it won't have that much of an affect. People seem to get that.

    I also have some customers who get their piano tuned every 10 years whether it needs it or not, basically when a pencil gets stuck in the action or whatnot. I don't see the point in burdening the customer, myself, or the instrument with the stress of a pitch raise. It won't stay in tune as well and they clearly can't tell the difference. For some people, playing the piano is more of a kinetic experience than an aural one. So be it.


    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2021 17:55

    I suggest another tuning after the next change of season is well established. I say that the next tuning will last better, but this one will make the biggest difference.

    I do between two and three passes, depending on the part of the scale. I'm not allergic to work the first time I see a piano. It gets the relationship off to an excellent start, which promotes trust and cordiality from then on. It's also a chance to deal with any little problems the piano is having, and to answer questions and deal with concerns the owner may have.

    One thing about being 75 and semi-retired: I never need to rush to another job.






  • 10.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-11-2021 19:59
    I like what Steven says here. There is something that has helped me deal with pitch changes, whether they happen after a pitch correction, or whether they happen seasonally. That is to always do two passes, with the exception for those pianos already so close that the extra pass truly doesn't make sense. If you're always doing two passes, it's just as easy to do a small pitch correction of ~25 cents as it is for only 5 cents. Either way, you're not having to continually explain the "need" for charging extra for those small pitch corrections. Just build your service around doing two passes for every normal tuning. The end result is better stability, and it doesn't really take longer than trying to create a stable tuning with only one pass...only to find out at the end you've got to futz with it again anyway. Most of my 2-pass tunings I'm in and out in less than 1.5 hours.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS

    Live not by fear or lies.
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-12-2021 22:59
    John --

    RCT has a tuning mode called Smart Tune. It does a great job of doing a small pitch raise at the same time as accomplishing a fine tuning in a single pass. If the piano is only out by, say, about 10¢ I just do a standard fine tune. More than that and I switch to Smart Tune and still accomplish a perfectly good, and stable, tuning in a single pass. And no, I do not charge for a pitch raise when using Smart Tune. It's still a single pass tuning that just happens to incorporate a tiny bit of pitch raise. I think it's unethical to charge the customer extra for a "pitch raise" when a second pass was not needed. I simply thank technology for making this possible and my day a bit easier.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 01:18
    Just to add on to what David and Geoff are saying.  Full disclosure, I work for CyberTuner.

    The world of pitch raises is not what it used to be when all of us learned.  For pitch corrections, CyberTuner is the greatest advance in the history of piano tuning.

    Most pianos can be pitch raised and tuned in a single appointment.  There is no need to schedule a follow up visit.  For a large pitch correction of over 50¢ it would be best to have the next tuning be in 3 months.

    In fact I have completely changed my business model because of CyberTuner's Smart Tune mode.  I do not charge for pitch corrections of 30¢ or less.  I charge top dollar for my service call.  More than most of you charge for a pitch raise and tuning.  I tune every piano to A440.  I do not ask the client's permission to do so.  I do not tell them that there will be an additional charge.  It is better for the client to just quote one price for piano tuning.  At this point in my career, I rarely work on a piano that is over 30¢ flat.

    Other ETD's have pitch corrction capabilities, but CyberTuner is the best.  For those of you tuning aurally or using a different ETD, I strongly advise to pay the additional money and use the best tool now available. 





  • 13.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 01:40
    . . . . and now, a word from our sponsors. . .

    ------------------------------
    Joël Weber
    Weberpianocare.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 05:33
    Thanks for the comments Carl. I have heard numerous times that the CyberTuner pitch raise function is superior to others. Can you please explain exactly how the CyberTuner pitch raise function works and why its workings are superior to others - say, better than Verituner? Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 10:20
    I'll jump in here to Terry's question about RCT overpull vs Verituner. Tuning where seasonal fluctuations create wide variations in pitch lead me to get very comfortable with pitch correcting/tuning.

    While the Verituner is a powerful tuning calculator, it has a very basic overpull function. It quickly measures the current note and then applies the user-defined overpull percentage to that note. Realizing that the overpull process should be responsive to not only specific notes, but adaptive to average starting pitches for an area, other platforms have implemented ways to help the software "listen" to more than a single note while calculating an overpull. In addition, realizing that different areas of the piano scale (including struts and string breaks) may require adaptations to a simple calculation, other platforms have included that as well. Depending on the platform (RCT, PianoMeter, TunelabPro, PianoScope - and perhaps others?) They may do this by pre-measuring or "on the fly" while tuning.)

    The workaround for Verituner is to use the needle and your memory to keep an eye on the overpull - while tuning if there is a single note that the software targets a smaller or larger overpull, then adapt the target. Likewise, using different overpull percentages (or displaying all three targets) for different sections of the piano and around struts can lead to a better result after the first pass.

    I have a self-schedule option for tuning "if it's been more than a few years since the last tuning" that adds 30 minutes to the visit. Gives me enough time for a 3rd pass if needed. For the massive pitch raises (just returned to a Yamaha spinet that I last tuned up from -300 cents in 2019..) I'll overpull the first pass to my comfort level of overpull maximum - depending on the instrument. Again, just using the needle to aim for +20 or +25 or + 30... I don't use the auto-note, but step to each note by swiping the display.

    Ron Koval


    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 11:08

    Terry and all,

    When calculating a pitch correction, this is what CyberTuner does.  First it calculates a tuning for the piano, based on sampling the 5 A's A1 - A5 on that piano.  We start our tuning at A0 and move chromatically up to C8, unisons as you go.  It measures the pitch of each note before tuning it and calculates a target pitch based on a unique overpull percentage for each note.  Not just 25%, but rather 22% for a note and 28% for the next note.  As you move up the scale having tuned the prior notes lowers the pitch of the coming notes, called pre-drop.  CyberTuner uses this information.  In addition to having a percentage overpull chart for each note, we use 4 different overpull charts, based on the size of the piano.  This leads to a very refined first tuning. 

    Like most of you, I learned to do a quick first pass and then a careful fine tuning.  I now do a careful first tuning and a quick 5-10 minute second touch up tuning.  CyberTuner is amazingly accurate after just one tuning.

    We treat every tuning as a pitch correction, whether it is 5¢ or 25¢..  For corrections of less than 20¢ only one pass is necessary followed by optimizing the unisons.  I can do a very solid 20¢ pitch raise in an hour or so.



    I tuned aurally for years and have tried other ETDs.  Good technicians develop a feel for pitch raises and make their own small adjustments based on experience.  Good as that is, it is not as accurate as modern computing techniques.  



    ------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 17:53
    Carl L. wrote: "When calculating a pitch correction, this is what CyberTuner does.  First it calculates a tuning for the piano, based on sampling the 5 A's A1 - A5 on that piano.  We start our tuning at A0 and move chromatically up to C8, unisons as you go.  It measures the pitch of each note before tuning it and calculates a target pitch based on a unique overpull percentage for each note.  Not just 25%, but rather 22% for a note and 28% for the next note."

    I'm trying to understand the last two sentences. How does CyberTuner (CT) calculate (or assign) a "unique over-all percentage for each note"? Based on what does it do that?

    As you move up the scale having tuned the prior notes lowers the pitch of the coming notes, called pre-drop.  CyberTuner uses this information.  In addition to having a percentage overpull chart for each note, we use 4 different overpull charts, based on the size of the piano.  This leads to a very refined first tuning."


    What is an percentage overpull chart? You say your have four different overpull charts that are based on the size of a piano - so how is it that there is a separate chart for each note? I don't understand.



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-14-2021 09:34
    From Terry:

    I'm trying to understand the last two sentences. How does CyberTuner (CT) calculate (or assign) a "unique over-all percentage for each note"? Based on what does it do that?

    As you move up the scale having tuned the prior notes lowers the pitch of the coming notes, called pre-drop.  CyberTuner uses this information.  In addition to having a percentage overpull chart for each note, we use 4 different overpull charts, based on the size of the piano.  This leads to a very refined first tuning."


    What is an percentage overpull chart? You say your have four different overpull charts that are based on the size of a piano - so how is it that there is a separate chart for each note? I don't understand.

    In the documentation for the old RCT, there was a graph that showed the overpull percentages/note. Instead of a specific constant overpull percentage for each section, the number would taper up and down to represent the best guess for how much to overpull. As I understand it, this approach was patented, explaining why the other platforms use another approach. At that time, I think the tuner needed to identify the stringing break between bass and tenor bridges. It sounds like the current version (Like PianoMeter and PianoScope) also lets the tech identify what type of piano is being tuned, such as spinet, upright, small grand and concert grand... Those choices have an effect on the software overpull percentages. I've also seen user inputs for the first and second struts that represent breaks in the long bridge.

    I believe at one time, there was an option to make custom overpull charts to further polish overpull numbers for specific models of pianos most often tuned...

    Ron Koval


    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 17:55
    Carl - if perhaps you feel responding to my specific questions may not be of interest to the general readership, feel free to respond privately to me. Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 19:09
    My recent experience with Anthony Willey's Piano Meter program is that, provided one strips off the plain wire strings first, it gives excellent results in a single pass. I start by playing every note on the instrument quickly which takes perhaps 90 seconds. Then I measure 4 notes per octave spaced a m3rd apart also about 90 seconds. I've tried using the unisons as I go method but the overpull proved to be too great. Sanderson Accu-tuner has two different pitch raise calculations depending on whether one is tuning with all of the plain wires stripped off or tuning unisons as you go. I have never charged for pitch raises in a customer's home. I simply tune every piano to A440 unless directed otherwise. I do however charge for pitch changes to a specific pitch (440 to 442 for example) in the concert halls I work for. This is because after the non-standard pitch requester leaves town I have to return the pitch to where it was before. Mr. Lieberman has the right idea; charge enough for a service call that you don't have to convince the client to pay for the work you feel is needed.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 01:40

    Terry 


    RCT has preprogrammed overpull  percentages for different sections of the piano. The overpull for each note is based on the trailing average so if you have an outlier it doesn't necessarily follow a strict note by note calculation. 

    i agree with Carl that RCT has the most sophisticated and reliable pitch raise function and will do a one pass tuning very well within a certain range. I think 20c is pushing it unless it's  a piano that doesn't require a really precise tuning. But even there the tuning will often be acceptable. 

    Where the pitch range function is less reliable is if the piano is out of tune in various directions, some notes sharp some flat. That's not typical, most pianos responding to humidity or time move in one direction or the other. But on a large pitch correction where you are roughing it into place quickly you might miss on both sides of the target pitch. In that case I often set the RCT on fine tune mode for the second pass where overpull is removed from the equation. 

    As far as charging for pitch raises, I charge by time. My basic "tuning only" rate is based on a one hour appointment. If pitch correction, or voicing or regulation pushes it to 90 minutes or two hours I charge for the time required.  Most modest pitch corrections can be accomplished with a one pass tuning and unison check, easily done within an hour. Two full passes pushes that time up a bit but usually if the piano has not been serviced recently enough to avoid that kind of pitch correction it will need other work as well and I'm scheduling a full service appointment anyway which ranges from 2-4 hours, sometimes more. If I schedule a two hour or four hour appointment they are paying me for the time I spend, I don't charge by each menu item.  



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 00:25
    Full disclosure: I do not work for Cypbertuner and I fully agree with Carl.

    I do 50% to 100% pitch raises regularly (with iRCT) and never schedule a second visit, though I do recommend a follow-up sooner than usual.  I do try to leave a major pitch raise at 441 if it is a newer piano, but I charge a bit more if I have to spend as much as an extra hour or more on the tuning.
    At this point in my career I do a LOT of rescues of disasters (and I welcome them).

    Even when I did only aural tuning I always left pianos at 440 whenever possible and my family usually didn't recommend follow-ups (though those usually took a looong time).

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 00:59
    Regarding aural pitch raises and tuning in general, we often fail to consider that in the process of interval tuning, by constantly referring back to what we've already tuned, we are checking and often touching up previous notes. So even though one might consider it a one pass tuning we are in effect doing a second or third pass as we go.
    Especially because of the vagaries of overpulling by ear we are more likely touching each string more times during a tuning than when using an ETD. I used to think this was a good thing but now not so much; if one can set pins/equalize tension and hit the proper overpull target the first time rather than finding it incrementally, it's less disruptive to the system as a whole. I think, perhaps I'm incorrect on this.
    Building a tuning by comparing intervals is a fundamentally different process than using an ETD which provides us with a map really by a process of dead reckoning (albeit with more going on under the hood in the machine.) Aural tuning is immersive, ETD's offer us a shortcut.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-14-2021 06:00
    Blaine H. wrote: "I do 50% to 100% pitch raises regularly...."

    I've seen pitch expressed as a percentage before and never understood it. How many cents flat is a piano that gets a 50% pitch raise?


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 07:03
    My guess is 50-100 cents. 50% of a semi-tone...100% semi-tone.  

    Being an aural (analog) tuner, I consider pitch correction to be like mental pushups. There is also the intense satisfaction in diving into a totally unusable/unmusical instrument and transforming it into a remarkably good sounding instrument in a couple of hours using nothing more than my brain, ears, and hands.  Almost like a resurrection (not literally of course) and the joy it brings to those around. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-14-2021 09:28
    There are 100 cents between half tones. A piano which is 50 cents (50%) flat is a quarter tone flat.
    Roughly 12.69 cps flat of 440 at A4.
    Figuring 4 (3.94) cents = 1 cps
    50/3.94 = 12.69

    A 25% overpull would be roughly 3-4 cents or 1 cps and you would p/r to A441.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Edit:  Let me correct my math error. The above statement would be correct if the piano were 12 cents flat.
    25% of 12.69 cps = 3.2 cps.  A 25% overpull of a piano 50 cents flat would be p/r'd to A443.
    Said another way, 25% of 50 cents(%) is 12.5% (cents). 12 cents is roughly 3 cps.

    I hope I got it better this time.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >Blaine H. wrote:
    "I do 50% to 100% pitch raises regularly...."
    >I've seen pitch expressed as a percentage before and never understood it. How many cents flat is a piano that gets a 50% pitch raise?


    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-14-2021 17:04
    Jon - I admit that I was being a tiny bit facetious when I asked for clarification on the 50% thing. Yes, I know what he meant. But it is totally the wrong units - actually, it's not even any units. What the heck does a percent here mean. I can hear my hydrogeology professor drilling it into my brain - "use the proper units!". I just wish people would use cents or even steps or half-steps - then we know exactly what they mean.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-14-2021 18:06
    I did a pitch raise today from 433 to 440.

    First pass A C# F at 443
    Bb D F# 442
    B D# G 441
    C E G# 440
    all octaves
    and it was more or less there. . . . 

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 29.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-12-2021 13:48
    I always do the pitch raise and fine tuning at the same visit.  I just had to tune a piano that was more than 100c flat and was to be used for an in home recital.  Took me three+ passes (two pitch correction passes, a final fine tuning and then another pass for unison checks).  Piano sounded just fine for the recital.  

    I don't generally feel that a follow up tuning is necessary or that it's necessary as a practice to separate the pitch raise from the fine tuning.  But I advise customers in that situation that they need to be more conscientious about tuning it twice a year going forward and if it seems to need tuning prior to 6 months I wouldn't be surprised given how far I moved it.  Often the tunings in these situations (or certainly for less of a correction) seem perfectly stable.  

    That being said it's important that the preliminary pitch raises get the piano very close to in tune before the final fine tuning, within a couple of cents--the closer the better.  The RCT pitch raise function allows you do accomplish that pretty painlessly and very quickly.  If your pitch raise is only getting you within 5-10 cents or if the sections are unevenly "out of tune" then your final fine tuning is not going to be very good.  Aural pitch raises are much more difficult to get close or take more passes.  

    The biggest argument for separating the pitch raise from the fine tuning is fatigue.  If you're an aural tuner and raising the pitch 100c then it just takes a lot out of you to get things close enough to where you feel comfortable doing a fine tuning and trusting that the typical 15-30% correction that happens with any pitch adjustment won't be enough to render the fine tuning unacceptable.  


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 12:13
    To answer your question, I never leave a piano at anything other than 440 for pitch raise reasons. Pitch raising is a skill we need, just like any other. I learned to do it well aurally, RCT does it better. I often recommend 6 months for the next tuning, rather than out customary year. I have returned to pianos that had massive pitch raises after two years or more, only to find them at pitch. YMMV.

    As to how people did it in the past, it depends on who you talk to. Nobody has done it that way in my neck of the woods. I suspect people who do two appointments have various reasons for doing it. Either to let the piano settle; or for the false fear that if you do it all at once, the plate will break.

    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 12:35
    In depth explanation of RCT here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHsL8oo_Low

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 13:28
    Michael Gamble gave me the following instructions for a 100cent pitch raise, the idea being to even out the whole range of the instrument together. I've used it and it works very well.

    Choose a pitch. Tune all the A's to that Pitch+10%. Then tune all the C#'s and F's to that pitch. Next tune all the G#'s to that pitch+8%. Next tune all the C's and E's to that Pitch. (you're half-way there!) Now tune all the G's to that pitch + 6% followed by all the B's and D#'s. Finally tune all the F#'s to that Pitch+4% followed by all the A#'s and D's. That's it. Chromatically the instrument should be merely out of tune, but roughly at the chosen Pitch - and there shouldn't be any string breakage. Now simply fine-tune the whole thing to your chosen Pitch and Temperament.

    Sometimes I'll do just the centre string of all octaves and then only do the unisons after so as to graduate and even out the rise even more.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 33.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-13-2021 17:54
    I watched the video and only saw a very small amount of superficial information regarding pitch raising.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 20:20
    Pitch raises and whether to charge. Definitely an important topic that we all have to consider and sometimes reconsider! I'll share what my experiences have been. I have used the Cybertuner quite a bit over the course thousands of tunings over about 15 years.
    I also bought TuneLab and Verituner. I don't use them although I do like the Verituner as well.
    Pitch-raising CHROMATICALLY - full unisons at a time - from a severely-flat pitch is something I have gradually moved away from in favor of using temperament strips to pitch raise with more evenly-distributed across-the-board tension increases. I do use the Cybertuner for this but have to alter overpull percentages or simply select an across the board overpull locked at whatever the average overpull needs to be.
    I also pay attention to the fact that overpull tensions do stress bridge pins and bridges, stress agraffes and capo-bar edges, and other things. There are also wire bends happening with overpull that you have to think about, in terms of string leveling and things. Because of capo bar and bridge pin / bridge damage, and to reduce likelihood of string breakage, I rarely overpull more than about 12 cents per pitch raise pass, no more than 4-6 cents overpull in the Bass. This is to prevent damage to the copper windings via over-extension.
    Since I'm a not a real engineer this is all based on theory and experience, not exact engineering data, etc. I might get to that at some point…
    I do charge for major pitch raise work particularly for new clients seeking to revive a piano from neglect. As well as returning clients who don't get consistent tuning every 6 months to one year. But I have to be pretty up-front about it. The only place where I might not charge is the very regular client. But frankly, a lot of pianos in homes getting tuned every 6 months to 1 year are not more than about 10-15 cents off. At that range, I might be able to do a careful Smart tuning with the Cybertuner, then go over that careful tuning again to clean things up and make sure things are where they should be. This kind of a tuning is something I can typically complete in 75 min or less at pretty much a concert tuning level of accuracy and stability. Actually 60 min or so normally.
    Another thing that I've increasingly sort of required myself to do, is to always go over my tuning aurally and for very pure unisons - after carefully tuning a piano in its entirety. In other words, I take the time to double-check things and ensure a very consistent and clean sound to unisons, as much as is realistic for the piano. This last 5 to 10 minutes (typically) takes a little self-discipline to do, but I consider it makes the tuning that much better and valuable. It's that last bit of edge in terms of quality in the work.
    I tend to be respectfully frank that I don't try to be the cheapest technician in town. I strive to be one of the best technicians, at a very reasonable, in fact competitive, price for the very highest level of work available.
    One of the reasons I charge if I have to fully pitch-raise a piano once or more before fine-tuning, is that one only has so many tunings in the duty cycle of their physical body. Let's say you're going to do 3 service visits one day. 6 tuning passes is a lot more wear on the body than 3 tuning passes. That magnifies over weeks, months and years.
    Speaking of physical wear: I learned years ago that I could not regularly "jerk" a tuning hammer back and forth violently. It led to issues with my tuning shoulder. I mostly use smooth pulling motions that require a degree of strength and control.
    In addition to this, while tuning I rarely ever pound or press keys with my fingers. In my 30's I began to experience severe arthritic pain from normal pounding / playing with my fingers while tuning. I adjusted to pressing the notes with a thick, short felt mute held upside down. This has worked out.
    I've also cultivated stability of tuning without pounding of keys excessively. I find this is not always possible, but with some pianos I find that I can tune with stability - without excessive key-pounding force.
    If I had to tune only with aural intervals, by hand, with lots of key-pounding, my tuning career would probably have been over after several thousand pianos - due to hand and finger strain.
    Final thoughts. Skillful use of an ETD has one added benefit during tuning. It allows you to move a tuning pin and a string DIRECTLY to where it should go. There is less hunting sharp or flat. This results in less wear of a piano pin-block.
    This is one more reason that while I highly favor traditional aural tuning, I do use an ETD. I also am convinced that using the Cybertuner has significantly lengthening the duration of my tuning career due to less wear on my ears and my fingers, hands, wrists, etc. So generally I like the idea of staying as engaged as possible with aural tuning, but doing so in a way that is survivable. Dean Reyburn gets huge respect from me since I owe so much in terms of quality and survivability with tuning over the years. He's made a truly great contribution to piano tuning in the 20th century and beyond.
    There are certainly many approaches to tuning. 
    I have real respect for solid aural-only tuners who go their whole career that way. But I've seen some fall out due to injury too.
    Sooner or later I suppose we all have to consider the long game in terms of how many piano per week we are going to tune, as we go from our thirties on up into our seventies. I hope to continue tuning into my old age, but at a strategically reduced rate. So I'm already planning around this so that the number of pianos I tune this week, this Summer, and beyond is a number that I'm comfortable with and enjoy.
    You know, another career or gig might be a great thing along with tuning as one ages. It might allow one to enjoy the level of tuning one does, and actually do it better, for longer.
    It never hurts to ask yourself why you are doing what you doing, and how much you enjoy it at a particular level. Don't get stuck in a rut and hate your work. Get ahead of that and think about it if you need to. For what it's worth after about 15 years of hard but good work.
    Lastly. Taking the aural tuning exam and becoming an RPT is crucial. It will either confirm that you are a solid, accomplished tuner worthy of the name, or that you need to work on some areas. This type of feedback and ultimate confirmation of credentials is better for your own understanding of yourself, and better for your customers. This will be an important achievement for the tech in their progress as a peer-reviewed professional.
    The next one is CTE, the certified tuning examiner. Again, the potential that you will gain confirmation that you are truly a master, or the chance to hone your skills to the level of real mastery. And more than that, the opportunity to serve and further the profession.

    ------------------------------
    Tom Wright, RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 18:44
    I was taught as an aural tuner by my father and grandfather.  They performed quick passes and we could do 4 or even 5 passes over a piano in an hour and a half.  My tunings now don't resembe anything I was taught by anyone and I test and experiment on every piano... someday I might get it right.

    I use iRCT for most tunings, but when I find the piano at 420 or even 415 I enjoy breaking out the temperament strip and practicing an aural tuning, expecially on rusty, ancient pianos.

    I defer to Liberman and Reyburn on issues of exactly how much to over-pull, but on rough aural tunings I assume that each string will drop 20% of where I left it by the end of a pitch raise pass, so if the piano is at 430 I will set C about 20% sharp of 440 (about 445) and I tune every string a bit sharp, estimating a 20% overpull from where it started.  If after my first pass I find A at about 438 to 442 I am happy and iRCT finds the pitches much better on my second pass.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 19:25
    All,

    Today I did a 21¢ pitch raise on a Kawai GL-10.  It had been in storage for a couple of years. I did only one pass with CyberTuner's Smart Tune mode.  Starting at A0 unisons as you go up to C8.  My target pitch was for +1.5¢.  After the one pass tuning I fussed over 10 unisons.  The piano was rock solidly in great tune.  I sampled the 5 A's and they are displayed below.  Unbelievably close.  This is what is now possible with modern technology.






    ------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-14-2021 20:14
    Yea, but aural tunings are more fun!

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-15-2021 12:01
    Carl

    Curious, did you sample the piano at 21c flat?

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-15-2021 14:24
    Hi David,

    Good question.  No, I had a tuning for a different GL-10 of the same age. (2 years old).  I used that tuning and was sampling at the end to create a file for this piano.  The curves were virtually identical.

    Sampling at -21¢ usually produces a curve with higher inharmonicity.  I have 1000 saved tuning files and for a piano more than 10¢ flat, I will used a saved file from the same model piano.

    This piano came out remarkably close.  Most will have more variation than this.





  • 40.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-15-2021 12:00
    If you observe while using RCT you can see the percent overpull as you go (it shows on the display).  I used those numbers to program the verituner with various overpull percentages, when I used to use it, and it worked pretty well.  But there's quite a wide variation in the overpull percentages ranging from about 12% in the bass to a high of around 35% in the first (lower) capo section.  But the overpull is affected by where the scale breaks as well and, of course, it tapers off at the very top of the piano.  RCT also gives you a warning when the overpull is exceeding the safe zone (it turns red and limits the amount of overpull when that happens).  Presumably that's to prevent exceeding the break point.  

    RCT also has a pitch raise function (as opposed to smart tune) which operates on the same principle but is designed to be used with large corrections.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-15-2021 16:35

    For those interested this gives an idea as to one of the default OP% from "smart tune" copied off my RCT.  The percentage will change with where the breaks are, and also if there are bichords in the tenor those OP%s will be lower than the trichord plain wire.

    This is a Steinway O scale with breaks at notes 26/27, 54/55, 71/72.  The other important factor is the calculated target based on the trailing average for the note in question.  

    Note OP % (Un)
    A - 0 4 1
    A# - 0 8 2
    B - 0 11 3
    C - 1 12 4
    C# - 1 12 5
    D - 1 12 6
    D# - 1 12 7
    E - 1 12 8
    F - 1 12 9
    F# - 1 12 10
    G - 1 12 11
    G# - 1 12 12
    A - 1 12 13
    A# - 1 12 14
    B - 1 12 15
    C - 2 12 16
    C# - 2 12 17
    D - 2 12 18
    D# - 2 12 19
    E - 2 12 20
    F - 2 12 21
    F# - 2 12 22
    G - 2 12 23
    G# - 2 12 24
    A - 2 12 25
    A# - 2 11 26
    B - 2 29 27
    C - 3 28 28
    C# - 3 27 29
    D - 3 27 30
    D# - 3 27 31
    E - 3 27 32
    F - 3 27 33
    F# - 3 27 34
    G - 3 27 35
    G# - 3 27 36
    A - 3 27 37
    A# - 3 27 38
    B - 3 27 39
    C - 4 27 40
    C# - 4 27 41
    D - 4 27 42
    D# - 4 27 43
    E - 4 27 44
    F - 4 27 45
    F# - 4 27 46
    G - 4 27 47
    G# - 4 27 48
    A - 4 24 49
    A# - 4 24 50
    B - 4 24 51
    C - 5 24 52
    C# - 5 23 53
    D - 5 23 54
    D# - 5 27 55
    E - 5 27 56
    F - 5 26 57
    F# - 5 27 58
    G - 5 27 59
    G# - 5 28 60
    A - 5 29 61
    A# - 5 30 62
    B - 5 31 63
    C - 6 32 64
    C# - 6 33 65
    D - 6 36 66
    D# - 6 35 67
    E - 6 35 68
    F - 6 35 69
    F# - 6 34 70
    G - 6 33 71
    G# - 6 37 72
    A - 6 36 73
    A# - 6 35 74
    B - 6 35 75
    C - 4 35 76
    C# - 7 35 77
    D - 7 35 78
    D# - 7 35 79
    E - 7 34 80
    F - 7 33 81
    F# - 7 30 82
    G - 7 28 83
    G# - 7 26 84
    A - 7 24 85
    A# - 7 22 86
    B - 7 20 87
    C - 8 18 88


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-15-2021 18:57
    I think this chart tells you a few things.  

    First, if you don't use RCT and want to choose three different overpull percentages to use you'd probably pick something around 12%, 25% and 35%​ and use them accordingly in each section modifying the ends of the sections as suggested.  It doesn't solve the problem of outliers but at least you'll be somewhat in the ballpark.

    Second, it also tells you why it's so important to get the piano close to pitch before a fine tuning when pitch correcting.  It's especially important that you don't miss in opposite directions.  If you're 5c off in opposite directions in two different sections at 25% or 35% correction then those two sections can end up 2-3c apart and that will not sound well at all.  

    Not to belabor the point about RCT, because I do think their pitch raise function is superior to other devices (and I don't work for them), but their programming does allow you to get very close to the final target even if it's not an acceptable final tuning.  The corrections on the final pass will be minimal which is what you want.  What we want to avoid is to keep chasing the pitch back and forth.  When that happens it's much easier to simply tell the customer that a return visit will be required soon, go home and have a drink and come back to fight another day.  In fact, if you get the piano close to the final target (however you do it) a return visit should not be required other than the next normally scheduled tuning.  


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-16-2021 06:25
    Thanks for posting the numbers David, I find it very informative. I'm guessing that your statement that the break between the tenor and low treble occurred at notes 55/56, is a mistake and the break is rather at 54/55?

    I am a Verituner user and looking at the numbers, I have zero doubt that using percentages overpull like these will indeed get you a very accurate pitch raise (PR) - at least with small to moderate PRs. I routinely adjust my three designated percent overpulls that Verituner permits me in my head on the fly where I think it is appropriate - on a moderate PR of, say 25 cents, I may add or subtract one or two cents in most of the same areas that your numbers generally reflect: Add a little at the low tenor, subtract a little as one approaches a break and gradually taper off a bit on the top half of the highest treble octave. Although, for whatever reason, I find that I generally need higher overpull percentages (on medium & large pianos I use bass:18%, tenor: 32%, treble: 40% - I still don't understand why it seems that I use higher percentages than anyone else), my mental additions and subtractions are similar to what you have posted except for your treble & high treble. With the exception of the upper-most half octave of the high treble (like I do), your CT uses 35% overpull for most notes - except for the lowest eight or so notes of the low treble section. I find that odd. I use my 40% for all of the treble (except for the top half-octave) and find that it works very well. I guess I don't even know what specific question I may have about that, other than do you have any explanation of why CT presumably has better success with the lower percentages in the lowest part of the tenor? I suppose the answer is not something from a mechanical engineering point of view, but very simply that is what they measured in their surveys before writing the program and it has been born out with testing of their program. 

    I can easily see where the CT pitch raise function with these kind of numbers plus the five-or-six-note trailing smoothing function (I also do that mentally on the fly) will generally produce very accurate pitch raises. I wish verituner had these features.

    I've often thought that it would be nice to have a program where you quickly samples all 88 notes and then your program would apply the CT-type PR function features to the amount of overpull needed. Sampling all the notes would give you a superior trailing average function (it could consider trailing AND the notes ahead) and it could potentially do a better job with outliers.

    One other observation is that I'd say that on 75+% of the pianos I do moderate PRs on with my Verituner's three fixed OP %s - lets say 25 to 50 cents - I find that the resultant PRs come out less than five cents off - and often, on the smaller PRs, within two or three cents (not infrequently spot-on). But there are always some pianos, especially on say 70 or 80-cent PRs where at least parts of the scale end up a good ten cents off - and keep in mind that I'm using percentage overpull very similar to yours - there is not enough numerical difference to account for the PR result to be that far off. It seems to me that such a result must reflect the physical characteristics of that specific piano - every piano is different and reacts differently to changes in internal stresses brought about during a PR. That MUST happen with CT on occasion - where you get a weird-responding piano where a medium or large PR just doesn't come out as accurately as most PRs do - yes?

    Thanks for joining the discussion - I find your input, as always, very informative and interesting.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-16-2021 10:38
    From Terry:
    I've often thought that it would be nice to have a program where you quickly samples all 88 notes and then your program would apply the CT-type PR function features to the amount of overpull needed. Sampling all the notes would give you a superior trailing average function (it could consider trailing AND the notes ahead) and it could potentially do a better job with outliers.

    There are a few: Tunelab, PianoMeter and PianoScope all have some sort of pre-tuning measuring pass for pitch adjustments. User settings determine which/how many notes are measured. The trouble for me as a Verituner user is that I haven't been able to get the tuning calculations of any of those platforms close enough to the custom Verituner calculation I use to make using those "smart" overpull functions worth using. They don't end up any closer than using Verituner's overpull like you already do. PianoScope was the closest, but I never felt the display gave me quick enough or precise enough feedback.

    Ron Koval

    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-16-2021 11:01
    I've been happily using the ACCU-Tuner (2 & 3) since 1998.

    After taking my FAC at pitch, the tuning mode begins me at A0.
    I move up a half step (A#0) and quickly measure all the A sharps going up, then all the B naturals coming
    back down.  This gives a quick and fairly accurate picture of overall piano pitch.

    I also PR and Tune in same session.

    Joël Weber





  • 46.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 13:01
    Terry

    Thanks for catching that, yes I meant 54/55--D5/D#5.

    I do think larger pianos (perhaps due to higher tension) need more overpull, or smaller pianos need somewhat less.  This is the default sequence on the RCT.  I think Carl mentioned there are four overpull functions to choose from.  Something I wasn't aware of.  I'll have to inquire on that further.  I did do a 50c pitch correction on a Yamaha U1 using smart tune yesterday and it left the piano every slightly sharp in the midrange and low treble but only a couple cents.  The rest of the piano, bass and high treble, came out much closer, though I did go through again and do a fine tuning and the pitch raising I did was fast with not pin setting involved so it might have been me. 

    The sequence here suggests that the struts themselves impact the pitch drop which would be consistent with the idea that the reason we get a pitch drop is due to plate contraction.  That means that the overpull corrections drop some around the struts on both sides.  Obviously the very bottom and top of the piano need less correction because aren't tuning on both sides of those notes to the same extent so they are only affected by the notes higher and lower respectively.

    If you're not trying to do a one pass pitch raise, which on any other machine is pretty difficult, then following these basic guidelines I think will get you very close such that a fine 2nd pass tuning won't have you making more pitch corrections that will necessitate further counter measures.  


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 13:19
    David,

    CyberTuner does use 4 different overpull charts.  But it's opposite of what you think.  Small spinets get more overpull and concert grands get the least.

    We factore in the breaks at the struts.  We do this because of the void on the bridge underneath them.  I am not one who believes that the plate is contracting near the struts.

    CyberTuner is responding to both pre-drop as you move up the scale towards a note and post-drop after you pass that note.  Those notes straddling the struts have slightly different pre-drop and post drop that the others.  The notes below the struts get less post-drop whereas the notes above the struts get less pre-drop.





  • 48.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 14:05
    Carl, does it handle the pre and post drop changes the same as the original state of the strings or are the added percentages modified? I've always wondered about how to handle that.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 49.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 14:57
    Steve,

    We modify the overpull on the 2 notes on each side of the strut.  On the lower side of the strut, we overpull a bit less because there will be less post-drop.  On the higher side of the strut we overpull a bit more because there has been less pr-drop.

    Look at the numbers that David posted for his Steinway O.

    C - 5 24 52
    C# - 5 23 53
    D - 5 23 54
    D# - 5 27 55
    E - 5 27 56
    F - 5 26 57


    The strut is between notes 54/55.  We dropped a bit on notes 53 & 54.  We went higher a bit on notes 55 & 56.



    ------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    ------------------------------



  • 50.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 17:06
    Carl, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the terminology, what I'm referring to is the amount the pitch drops in the 6th and 7th octaves as a result of raising the pitch-adding tension-in the lower parts of the piano. On larger pitch raises I often notice an additional 5-10 cent drop in the upper treble from my original measurements. I've always wondered, as I presume this drop is due to soundboard compression, does one apply the same overpull to the disparity? The drop is more of a short term phenomenon as opposed to the long term drop in pitch I've always been confused as to whether the same rules apply.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 51.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 17:59
    Steve,

    This is what I'm labeling together as pre-drop and post-drop.  CyberTuner does not measure the pitch of each of the 88 notes before we start our pitch raise.  If C6 was originally at -25¢, it will be at -35¢ when we move up the scale to tune it.  Yes, I believe this is because of the compression of the bridge/soundboard system.  Our overpull calculations are dynamic.  If C6 starts at -25¢ and our target pitch is +5¢, and our overpull for that note is 30%.  You might think that we will over pull by 9¢ (30% of 25 + 5) and tune C6 to +14¢.  But since C6 will have dropped to -35¢ by the time we get to it, we will overpull C6 by 12¢ (30% of 35 + 5) and tune C6 to +17¢.

    You could design a system with variable overpulls based on measuring the starting pitch of all 88 notes.  Our system is designed with variable overpulls based on the actual measured pitch of a note before you tune it.  We believe that this is a more accurate approach.  Doing a careful one pass 25¢ Smart Tune pitch raise should leave most notes within 1¢ of it's target.  It's why in my earlier example I could do a one pass 21¢ pitch raise and have my 5 measured As all be within 0.3¢ of their target pitches.

    ------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    ------------------------------



  • 52.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-17-2021 07:33
    Hi Steven,
    I don't over-pull more than 10cts (starting at A0) to 15cts (after the treble break) and on large pitch raises, that means that I'll do a second pass on the last 3 octaves or so. It may sound less scientific but it has worked for me time after time. 
    On pianos that are very much out of tune, pitch wise and inconsistent from note to note, I do the "forearm smash" as described by Stephen Brady, before and after the pitch correction, and, of course, use Jon Page's CBL.
    Peter


    ------------------------------
    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
    ------------------------------



  • 53.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 23:36
    Carl

    So if you think that the overpull is to compensate for soundboard compression why is overpull still required on soundboards that have no crown and zero downbearing?

    I think it is all to do with plate contraction and there is less plate contraction where there are struts which would explain RCTs compensation for less overpull around the struts.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 54.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2021 00:28
    David, I'm not answering for Carl but my question was specifically regarding the dip in pitch in the upper octaves caused by the increase in tension below during a (large) pitch raise. I surmise this is due to depression of the board, hence my question about whether it is compensated the same as the long term drops in pitch. It seems to me this happens on verticals to a greater extent than grands, not sure how that might figure into the plate compression theory.

    I recall Ron Nossman talking about long term pitch change vs short term pitch change. Don't remember the details.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 55.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2021 23:23
    Steve

    It's not due to depression of the soundboard.  The numbers just don't bear that out.  Let's look at the data.

    Taken from my scaling program of a Steinway O tuned to A440 the overall tension is ~37200 lbs.  Thirty cents flat at A4 is about 8hz.  So 30c flat means the piano is tuned to A432.  At A432 the overall tension in the piano drops by about 1300 lbs.  To calculate the change in downbearing pressure on the entire board take the sine of .75 degrees (about what the average residual bearing is on most boards) x 1300 lbs.  The result is a change in downward pressure on the board of 17 lbs.  In excel you would write =sin(radians(.75))*1300.  

    That 17 lbs is the change over the entire soundboard.  I would bet if you set a 17lb weight on a single section of the bridge you would not detect any change in pitch and this is distributed over the entire length of the bridge(s).  More typical on old sounds is a residual bearing of zero to  .25 degrees. At .25 degrees the stress on the entire board would change by about 5 lbs. It can't possibly account for it especially when we consider that the required overpull doesn’t change with differences in crown or downbearing which you would expect if the board was the thing reacting. 

    Further, when we break a string it's typical that the notes around that broken string go sharp.  The actual change in downward pressure on the board from a single broken string in the treble section is about 4 lbs (two unison lengths at ~160lbs each or 320 lbs total *sine of .75 degrees.  Board decompression will not explain the adjacent notes going sharp.  On the other hand, a sudden drop of 320 lbs of tension on the plate is a much more likely suspect as is an overall change of 1300 lbs in the case of a 30c pitch raise.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 56.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2021 01:41
    I've not seen this mentioned in this thread, but a pitch raise changes the stress on the entire piano structure. I was taught to tune one string for each note, then the second string and finally the third string so that the load is applied more equally across the entire structure. This  system pretty much ignores the bass strings, as they don't seem to effect the treble strings much, if at all.  Of course, once this has been done & the piano is basically 'at pitch' it is then time for the "final tuning."
    It has also been mentioned that the flexing of the soundboard isn't effected by this, but I disagree, based on my observations. As I bring up the upper treble, the lower treble goes flat. The only variable structure I believe that is in this situation is the soundboard.  Since the base bridge is so close to the edge of the soundboard, it doesn't move it as much. At least that is what I was told and have observed.  Quite willing to listen to other ideas though!
    David Dewey





  • 57.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2021 08:34
    Dr. Al Sanderson taught years ago that it is in fact the entire structure involved. Soundboard, pinblock, plate, case, etc. All of it under a state of compression but all of it flexible.

    Made sense then, makes sense now. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 58.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2021 09:00
    And it was Dr. Sanderson who posited that it would give a more stable tuning by starting at A0, tuning unisons as you go. 

    As far as board flexing vs. plate flexing: I've heard both sides argued with reason. I also suspect everything is moving some. Bottom line for me is, I don't care which is flexing, as long as I have reliable numbers for overpulls that work.

    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------



  • 59.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2021 09:16
    Do you all have thoughts on overpull stresses on Capo bars and bridges / bridge pins? How much tension does it take to cut into the softer steel of the capo bar? Since normal tension already nicks many capo bars, one would suspect that big overpull numbers could become a significant source of capo bar damage in the life of a piano.

    Dan Levitan teaches / demonstrates pitch raising with double mute strips.
    For what it’s worth, I’ve gravitated to using felt temp. strips for significant pitch raising, over about 15 cents flat.
    Rather than chromatic, which is what the Cybertuner offers. I use the Cybertuner for plenty of tuning, but a sort of intuitive continuous observation of forces at work has inclined away from dramatic chromatic pitch raises.
    It would be most excellent to have a Cybertuner setting for muted-off pitch raising.
    Aren’t the old ways sometimes the good ways? :)




  • 60.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2021 10:32
    Good posts from Peter and David, remembering Dr Al Sanderson's contributions to our understanding of pianos' reactions to pitch change. Importantly, he didn't merely "posit" or "assert" this based on "impressions" or "what I was told …". NBSS frequently sent their students to his place of business where they were his "lab rats", performing pitch raises and lowerings, and he measured the results, and incorporated his findings in the SAT's features.
    Dean Reyburn's "team" and beta testers similarly provided data on real world pitch change results, which has allowed him to develop very robust pitch raise modes for CyberTuner.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 61.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2021 12:14
    David

    No, the only variable is not the soundboard.  The plate is a very important even at the treble extremes.  It is the most important variable.  

    Of course the entire structure is affected by a change in tension but that's not the question.  The question is what is responsible for the pitch drop when raising the pitch.  I've already demonstrated that it can't be the soundboard for various reasons (see my previous post).  That is not to say that the soundboard isn't affected, but it's not significant in the pitch correction effect.  If the overall change in the downward pressure due to an increase in tension is 17 lbs (see the post) then laying a 17 lb weight on the bridge should result in a drop in pitch of close to the same 30c (actually it would be slightly less since the soundboard is a non linear spring and gets stiffer the more you compress it).  But that doesn't happen.  It doesn't happen if you add 17 lbs or 30 lbs or 50 lbs or 100 lbs.

    Some have argued that the pinblock and the rim move as well.  that might be.  But a full fit pinblock cannot move if the plate doesn't move and the rim can't move unless it's pulled by the plate.  The strings, after all, are not attached to the rim, they are attached to the plate.  I think it's very likely that the rim moves in conjunction with the plate (not so convinced about the pinblock), but it's the plate contracting that drives the rim movement, not the other way around.  If anything the rim would inhibit the plate moving not drive it.  

    I realize many of us have been telling our customers for decades that it's the further compression of crown on the soundboard that drives the need for pitch correction overpull.  But it's wrong.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 62.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2021 13:46
    The thing that has always confounded me is that the pitch raise function works as well as it does on disparate pianos. I use the Verituner, my target numbers are  a little lower than what David reported except a little higher in the bass (16,24,32), I don't compensate for struts. Certainly for smaller pitch raises it works quite well, yesterday I raised a tiny Kohler and Campbell (Samick) grand about 20 cents and pretty much got the same results that Carl reported in his post yesterday. I shift to the higher treble overpull at G5, don't ask me why except that that's usually where the treble break is on verticals, I guess it's out of the habit from my aural tuning days. 
    But what I've noticed is that even if I forget to shift in the treble and don't catch it till I'm further up, there's generally no penalty, it still seems to work out. If there's any area that more often doesn't get me within 2 cents on larger raises, it would be in the upper 6th and lower 7th octaves where it might be prudent to go up to 35 or 36 percent overpull.
    I've long puzzled on why these raises work as well as they do so universally, it seems to be better than they should even with different people using different devices and schemes. Before I had the objective measurements of the ETD, I'd assumed that most of the changes were due to soundboard compression but I then realized I was wrong, it is the wires themselves and Hook's Law is consistent. It still doesn't explain why Terry, David, and I use 3 different sets of targets and get such similar results. The RCT is certainly more refined and probably gives better results, but they seem pretty close.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 63.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2021 00:37

    Steve. 


    I think the difference is only a matter of degree and those cited aren't that large. Smart Tune in RCT is designed to do a one pass pitch raise that results in an acceptable final tuning. But if you're just trying to get things close enough to do a second pass then the difference between, say, 32% and 35% correction doesn't amount to that much in most cases.

    Let's take a piano that's 30c flat. The overpull at 32% would be an overpull of 9.6c sharp. The overpull at 35% would be 10.5c sharp, a difference of only .9c. That's not enough to throw a second pass off but it is enough to render the initial pitch raise not usable as a final tuning. 

    Obviously our goal is to get the first pass as close as possible so that we aren't doing another significant pitch correction on the second pass which renders that second pass unacceptable as a final tuning. But as you can see there's some leeway if we are planning to do a complete second pass. If we are aiming for a one pass pitch correction/final tuning then our tolerances are much smaller. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 64.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-17-2021 21:49
    I use RCT at just about every tuning. SmartTune is pretty good, and it is usually better than an aural pitch raise. However, I don't trust it as much as Carl does. While good, during the second pass, I regularly notice sections that are noticeably off pitch from just the SmartTune pass. Sometimes sections are flat, and sometimes they are sharp. The closer to A440, the better SmartTune does (of course).

    Now perhaps this is due to starting a pitch raise at the lowest tenor, and doing the bass last. I don't like starting at A0, because especially if flat enough, it's hard for RCT to "find" the correct pitch in the first bass octave. And since you don't have any tuned reference notes above that octave, you don't know where anything should be, and so you have to spend a bit of time waiting for RCT to calculate the over-pull. For that reason, sometimes it's faster and about as accurate to aurally tune the bass last, using the tenor from the first pass of SmartTune as the reference notes.

    I'll generally employ SmartTune up to 40 cents, since I'm always going to do a second pass anyway. If greater than 40 cents, I'll use the pitch raise program. If greater than 100 cents, it's faster to do the first pitch raise aurally. Then I'll do a SmartTune pass, followed by a Fine Tuning pass.

    If, during the Fine Tuning pass, I notice a section off by more than 4-5 cents, I'll use SmartTune as the final pass, just to get a little over-pull to compensate for pitch drop.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS

    Live not by fear or lies.
    ------------------------------



  • 65.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 06-19-2021 02:14
    Currently I'm doing 1hr-1.5hr appts (in and out of house). Tuning, bit of regulation, a little bit of cleaning and voicing. But if a piano is, let's say, 50c flat, then I'll do 2 passes on RCT (Fine tune 1st because I don't like overpulling by a whopping 30 cents and then Smart tune) and forgo cleaning as thoroughly or forgo touch up voicing and regulation. I'll still recommend another tuning in a month.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 66.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 04-04-2023 07:15

    This is all about educating your client about tension, pitch and tuning. If you are precise and simple in this explanation, your client will understand that today, you will need to pitch raise and then tune the piano in one visit, and that in order for you to bring the piano to what I call "maintenance" mode, I will have to return within some time, maybe 1 to 3 months after the initial visit. And then, after the second (discounted)  visit, they can decide  if they want to do it once a year (for the health and stability of the pitch of the piano), or once every 6 months at a discounted rate, as recommended by all manufacturers so that the player can retain a default ear for what the piano is supposed to sound like.  I then explain that I tune the Steinways on the concert stage at the university once a week (this is mostly true) . They are usually surprised to hear this.  Then I explain that most concert stages tune their pianos the day of every performance. They usually can understand THAT. I like to explain to customers that, if the expense is taken out of the equation, a piano could be tuned just as often as a guitar is tuned - every time it is played. I explain that the only reason why the university Steinways get tuned so often is because I'm on salary. They'll usually laugh while understanding my explanation. 

    Costumers won't think you're trying to "cash grab" them if you give them just a little education. The point is that sometimes you have to spend a little bit more money in order to ensure that you don't waste the money you've already spent. 






    ------------------------------
    Lucas Kirby
    Kirby Piano Service, Lucas Kirby Music
    Spokane, Washington
    509-294-8717
    lucaskirbymusic@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 67.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-05-2023 09:02

    For those new to Verituner, here's a tip about large pitch raises: when I do a 100-cent raise, the high treble inevitably sinks by the second pass, sometimes 30-40 cents. (I generally use 15/28/36 presets.)

    DON'T just go back and pitch raise again with the same file-the piano will end up too sharp. Instead, I've found it much better to open a new file, using the same percentages. It will end up much closer.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 68.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 04-07-2023 15:12

    Scott - Did you know that you can clear all of the starting pitch measurements for a second pass? You don't need to start a new file - though getting inharmonicity measurements closer to 440 is probably a good idea!

    Ron Koval



    <snip>
    "DON'T just go back and pitch raise again with the same file-the piano will end up too sharp. Instead, I've found it much better to open a new file, using the same percentages. It will end up much closer."





    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    CHICAGO IL
    ------------------------------



  • 69.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 04-07-2023 16:43
    Much experience here seems to be confined to Verituner.

    Inspired by the PTG mag articles on doing a 12 minute pitch raise, perhaps a little extreme, I've gravitated to the sort of idea. Essentially one wants to raise all to above target so one might go to 444 so that one can then drop strings that haven't dropped already down to pitch on a proper tuning rather than raise anything on a second pass. However a method my mentor taught me which is tedious but can often nail a 100 cent pitch raise and tuning essentially quite accurately in one is to tune say all the Cs in all octaves, E and G# setting at 444 then D, F# and Bb in all octaves to 443 then C#, F and A to 442 and the remaining Eb, G and B to 441. If one's lucky the result then will be all essentially in around 440.

    The exact description from my mentor was
    Choose a pitch. Tune all the A's to that Pitch+10cents. Then tune all the C#'s and F's to that pitch. Next tune all the G#'s to that pitch+8cents. Next tune all the C's and E's to that Pitch. (you're half-way there!) Now tune all the G's to that pitch + 6cents followed by all the B's and D#'s. Finally tune all the F#'s to that Pitch+4cents followed by all the A#'s and D's. That's it. Chromatically the instrument should be merely out of tune, but roughly at the chosen Pitch - and there shouldn't be any string breakage. Now simply fine-tune the whole thing to your chosen Pitch and Temperament.

    For the sort of instruments which require a 100cent or 200cent pitch raise, if it ends up at 438 rather than 440, I'm not greatly worried. 440 can be achieved the next time. I don't find any special techniques to be necessary for raising 438 to 440.

    Best wishes

    David P
    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 70.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 04-07-2023 02:38

    I realized that my last reply to this post was a little off topic. Perhaps that is because I was replying to the whole thread, rather than the initial post. Anyway, as trivial as the topic may seem, it's actually not, especially given that pitch raising and tuning pianos is the vast majority of the work we do. So I have been taking others responses, as well as my own experience into thought and here's my take. 

    Most ETD's do a surprisingly great job at bringing a pianos tension and pitch so close to target, that you can tune it after the pitch raise and have a remarkably accurate tuning. It's actual stability will be based off other variables. The farther off pitch, the farther away from target pitch your pitch raise will be. If pitch correction was extreme, say, 40 cents or more, I will always inform the customer that if they want the piano to be in a mode of stability, then it could use another discounted tuning within 1 to 3 months. I explain to them that piano tension isn't as simple as other instruments and that maintaining pitch/tension is always better for the player as well as the health of the piano, rather than trying to catch it up every few years they decide to do it. So, if a piano is fairly flat; and yes, 50 cents is pretty flat, as the OP stated, then the piano most certainly could use another tuning a short while after the initial visit. However, I would stress that you should still leave that piano as stable and in-tune as possible during the first visit, especially if you're charging for a pitch correction AND tuning. And of course, there should be a charge for the follow up visit. 

    I've seen a lot of techs use pitch raise features as an excuse to go over the piano once, call it a day and charge for a tuning and pitch raise. That makes no sense to me and with a few exceptions, is a disservice to the client. Unless the piano was only 5 or so cents off, any more than that and I simply don't believe that a one pass pitch correction will provide the client with the piano tuning and pitch raise they're being charged for. A while back, I'd have no problem doing this, especially since I would take the extra time to get my unisons and intervals as accurate as possible through that one pass. But who are we kidding, it out really isn't a substitute.  However, now that I actually go back and tune the piano immediately after raising pitch, the results are FAR better.  It's undeniably obvious. Fussing with trying to perfect a tuning and pitch raise in one pass is a less than satisfactory outcome. Although I'm open to having my mind changed, I'm not sure that anyone could convince me that one pass pitch raises/tunings are just as stable and accurate as pitch raising in one pass and then actually tuning it in a final pass. 

    If I'm tuning for the Symphony and the piano is 5 cents flat, I know I'm giving it two tunings. I know it's not going to be stable with just one.  So why should I assume that cubertuner or any other device is going to get me there with only one, especially if it's, say, 20 cents flat? 

    With that said, if you're tuning it twice, you need to be paid for it. I charge for pitch raises 10 cents or more. I charge extra if the piano is 50 cents or more. It's more time and more work.  And because I know I'm getting paid for it, I know I'm going to spend the time to make it as accurate and stable as possible. If explained properly to a client, they will almost always be in favor of your method. They are also more likely to call you sooner so they don't have to pay extra every time they tune their piano every few years or more.

    Manufactures recommend tuning every 6 months. That's for a typical, average client. If it's a piano teacher or a work horse piano in a studio, it should be tuned more often. This suggests that a neglected piano that is very flat needs another visit even sooner than those 6 months. 

    In conclusion, there should be no problem with following up a major pitch raise with another follow-up visit shortly after the initial visit. It's only going to make the piano more stable and it gives the client a more pleasant musical experience. Unless the client is okay with it being less stable after you leave,  and as long as they know that it should be done within 6 months to a year to keep it at tension, than I don't see any problem with following up major pitch raises with another visit.  


    -----------------------------
    Lucas Kirby
    Kirby Piano Service, Lucas Kirby Music
    Spokane, Washington
    509-294-8717
    lucaskirbymusic@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 71.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 01:18

    Occasionally I forget to charge my iRCT machine or of leave it at home and I need to do a serious pitch raise (+-100%).  I take this as a welcome change of pace and pull out my strip mute and happily do it like I was taught.

    I assume that the pitch will drop about 20% on each string (doesn't iRCT use 22% to 28%?) and I over pull appropriately, setting the initial pitch 20% sharp of what I want it and pulling each note a bit sharp, depending on its original pitch.  I try to hit about 441 or 442 as I prefer to pull down a few cents on my second or third pass.

    I was taught to tune fast and I try to run through as many passes as necessary to get the piano up to pitch.  If it is a big PR I shoot for a final pitch of 441, but on an aural tuning I give myself some slack.  I leave the piano at pitch and sounding fine and I recommend that the customer be sure to tune it again in about half of the usual time that they would schedule (probably 10 years instead of 20, though I usually recommend 6 months or a year).

    If I am using iRCT I do what Carl Liberman recommends and aim to be a bit sharp on each note, probably pulling it down from 442 to 441.  I do my best on every tuning, expecting the M.S. piano teacher or concert trained brohter-in-law to be the next performer on that spinet.

    If I return in a year I usually find the piano in fairly adequate tune and ready for steady, regular service.

    I very, very rarely recommend a second service call.



    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 72.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 13:13

    Newton Hunt had a system somewhat similar to what David P. describes primarily as a quick prestressing of the system. I never use it but David's post reminded me of it.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 73.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 18:48

    When I was at North Bennet St. School in 1979, Jim Hayes who I think had worked for Sohmer for many decades, visited the school and taught us a lot of useful skills.  He had all the formulas for string tension.  That's when I learned about "break point percent" and other cool and important stuff. The most important was "silent pitch raising".    If you have a piano thats say 100c flat.  tune up a few notes and get an idea of how much the pin has to move to bring it up to pitch.  Then just go for it.  Pull up with 2 out of 3 strings for every unison without listening.   So in a matter of minutes you've increased tension enough that you can tune at pitch and it'll stay there.   Back when I was teaching at my first annual Institue in Philadelphia I think 1991 I was impressed by the director, Ernie Juhn.  It was my first national and he told me catagorically: "you are not here to promote your self!"  The other thing was that he never charged extra for pitch raising at any time in his long and illustruous career.   Over the decades this has made it possible to never have to charge extra for pitch raising Thanks to Jim Hayes.



    ------------------------------
    David Stanwood RPT
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    (508) 693-1583
    ------------------------------



  • 74.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 19:02
    Greetings, 
       I've done the normal number of pitch raises in 46 years with a variety of techniques and found the best for me was starting at A0 and going continuously  up to C8 with overpulls calculated about a fifth in front of wherever I am.  I compensate for a slightly flat string I leave behind with a slightly sharp one next, and with a 20 minute investment, I have a piano that is out of usable tune but almost exactly at the proper tension. Then I can just tune it.  

       It may have been Ernie Juhn (or Norm Neblett) that said " it is a lot easier to tune a piano twice than to wrestle with it once").  I have found it to be easier, and also invariably a better result .  
    Regards, 





  • 75.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 19:23
    Ed said: " it is a lot easier to tune a piano twice than to wrestle with it once"

    I had to relearn this several times over my career. Even a pitch raise of 4 to 6 cents is worth doing and following up with a "normal" tuning. I didn't charge for that kind of pitch raise/lowering.

    If the piano was 100 cents off, I charged. Most clients admitted to tuning neglect, so I figured they got off easy with a 1/2 priced charge for the pitch raise plus the regular tuning charge.

    For those big pitch raises I did two passes before the final tuning. I never wanted more than a 5 cent over pull setting at A440 and risk breaking strings. The first pass resulted the piano being around 10 to 20 cents flat. The second pass got things right where they should be, so a nice final tuning could be accomplished without moving strings much and with good stability.

    Richard West





  • 76.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 19:28
    I should add that I, too, subscribe to the pitch raise method that starts at A0 and sweeps up chromatically to C88. I use the ETD for that, but "regular" tuning is aural.

    Richard 





  • 77.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2023 19:25
    I heard about that silent pitch raise techniques shorty after I started tuning. I tried it once or twice. Maybe I needed to give it more time, but sorry, not for me. 

    Wim





  • 78.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2023 05:37

    We have several techs in our area who do the PR one day, and the do the final pass on another. I am firmly against this rule of thumb. My attitude is to get the piano in as good of tune possible on the service date. Period.  Your services will be much better represented, if after the PR,  the final pass is completed. Without a doubt, the piano will continue to react with newly added tension. But regardless, there is a mindset (from the customer's point of view),  that  on a given date the piano was serviced, and it now sounds much better.

    For the major PR's of 50-100cent, I recommend a follow up tuning in x amount of months. Some of them follow through with it, but many don't. I've come to realize that clients who haven't had it done in 20 yrs., will continue this same pattern of not getting the piano serviced regularly.

    As to David Stanwood's suggestion regarding silent tuning, I do that all the time with large pitch changes. Once muscle memory is established, with knowing how much physical movement is needed, simply start adding tension up the scale. It's a big time saver!

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 79.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-10-2023 00:36

    I wonder if the tradition of doing a pitch raise one day and a tuning the next derives from aural tuning practices where a tuner sets A (or C) to standard pitch, tunes the piano, then expects the piano to be at pitch at the end of one or two passes.  Without an over-pull the piano would react and end up about 20% to 30% flat (using % here in place of ¢ because it is easier to type).

    With a modern ETD that calculates a pitch-raise overpull the piano will likely be at or near pitch after one pass. If it does not hold your tuning after a fine tuning pass perhaps we should consider our hammer technique.

    Since pianos are designed to have most strings at 40% to 65% of breaking I see no reason to bring each string slightly over pitch and settle it down to pitch.  Even a half step exaggerated over-pull should only result in a few % increase of the breaking point.  Most piano strings will break at a minor third to a fourth above pitch and a bit of over-pull shouldn't break a healthy string, especially if the string was generously dropped in pitch before raising it (YMMV; don't blame me if a spinet breaks a string at 441).



    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 80.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-10-2023 08:52

    Blaine,

    Actually I think the idea stems from the erroneous (but long held) idea that piano wire "stretches", therefore when subjecting it to a major tension increase it will "stretch" out of tune shortly, thereby necessitating a followup tuning to counteract this. 

    I have come to the conclusion throughout 48 years that this is a crock (but it sure sounds logical and often gets an additional appt out of it). After examining my own work (under that "assumption") I have found that there is little to do beyond the normal at the next appointment, provided that I went over the piano enough times to stabilize it initially.

    It's a bit like scaring the client into tuning the piano twice a year "because tension changes could possibly lead to plate breakage..." (another trick tuners have used in the past to perpetuate their business erroneously).

    Just my two cents,

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 81.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-11-2023 01:00

    While working for Samick I regularly saw technicians removing the bass strings from pianos without changing any string tensions and installing new strings with no problem.  I saw a refinisher break a plate on an old upright once, but it was an extreme effort that I suspect no one here would do.

    In my back yard I have a string stretch experiment running.  My long experience suggests that piano strings DO stretch throughout their life, at about 1/2 CPS per year.  So far my stretch experiment is proving me mostly wrong, but another experiment is showing me to be almost right.  PTJ article to follow.



    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 82.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-11-2023 08:08

    My information on wire stretching comes from the mouth of Andy at Mapes as well as James Arledge. What is interpreted by us tuners as "stretching" is actually movement due to 1) bends straightening, 2) coil slippage, 3) loop twists tightening, etc etc. Since we don't "see" it happening we interpret it as "stretch" (and we have conditioned by certain authoritative sources toward this conclusion), but in actual fact it is not an accurate conclusion. Once all sources of "creep" from these points is exhausted the wire remains fully stable.

    I have personally serviced several instruments that are well past the "creep" stage and now kept in scrupulously stable environments that show absolutely NO pitch movement whatsoever, year after year after year, leading me to the inevitable conclusion that the individuals mentioned above know what they are talking about. 

    A different scenario is damage due to exceeding the elastic limit of a wire prior to breakage...yes, it stretches a little because it was abused. That's different. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 83.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-12-2023 01:27

    I believe that you, and they, are right and wrong.

    There is quite a lot of settling from string bends and in the context of their experience I believe they are mostly correct that, after the settling of bends and kinks the strings do not stretch... much.
    But I still suspect that they do stretch throughout their life, but my opinion remains to be documented and supported.

    We will see....



    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 84.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 05-11-2023 22:30
      |   view attached

    Blaine, I just got a glimpse of your string with the weight on the end. Might I suggust (if you aren't alreading doing so) measuring the string from point B to C (with points A and D being where your string knots begin). In doing this you'd be eliminating the variable of the knots tightening as the weight holds the wire taught.

    See the picture.



    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 85.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2023 23:31

    Cobrun,
    Initially I measured the distances from the attachment points and the coils, but for my regular measurments I used two upright damper wire clamps set at about 113 CM apart and I measure the distance between these with a dedicated steel ruler.
    The results are interesting and not what I expected. Basically I created an elaborate thermometer.
    The experiment was intended to run for several years, though in its outdoor environment, even with regualr rust preventitive measurements the string is rusting (we have had a very wet year here in California).



    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 86.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-12-2023 07:39

    Blaine, 

    My interpretation of your statement is that you have in fact measured variations in the length of the wire, however they appear to be due to temperature change. Is this a fair assessment of it thus far?

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 87.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-12-2023 07:38

    Interesting thread....The big element that always as to be dealt with is the huge tension increase from 100cent pitch raise to A440. All of the piano's components ( frame, harp, soundboard, bridges, and strings) have been allowed to migrate to a lowered tension stage over years, sometimes decades. Then the pitch raise occurs and the rath that follows is partly due to the strings settling into a new tension and position. But more importantly, it's the soundboard and bridge fidgeting with the new tension until it finds a settled state. And there in lies the issue that no matter well of a pitch raise and tuning is completed, there will be movement that follows. If the tech does their job well, the movement will be minor and still have the piano in a good musical state.

     

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 88.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-12-2023 08:34

    Tom,

    I definitely agree with that.

    Blaine, 

    Back in the days when I thought as you are thinking (I think...) I harvested an entire box of wire segments (for splicing purposes) off of a piano being restrung and the wire was only about 20 years old. I figured "all the stretch will be out of it and it will be more stable as a result". 

    Wrong, wrong, wrong...

    It behaved EXACTLY as new wire off the coil. No difference whatsoever. That got me thinking. Eventually I got my answer after talking to Andy, and further later with James. The wire doesn't stretch as we think of stretching. Once it gets up to tension it stays there. Settle all the creepy points and you have a stable string. 

    However, I await the results of your research.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor  

    P.S. this is a little like the issue of whether a soundboard NEEDS crown to perform well. The "need" for crown is a long engrained idea that is hard for us to let go of. However, we need to analyze WHY it became a "standard" in the first place, and whether there were/are other alternatives. Another endless discussion. 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 89.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2023 05:33

    Dear List

    Could someone provide me with the Vallotti temperament offsets ASAP.  Thanks in advance.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 90.  RE: Pitch Raise & Tune in One Session

    Posted 04-21-2023 07:29
    Offsets
    From http://www.tuning-set.de/Beda_5C_E_Internet.pdf
    Vallotti
    VALOTTI 0,0 5,8 -3,9 5,8 -0,2 2,0 3,9 -1,9 7,8 -1,9 3,9 1,9

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594