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ETD Compare/Contrast

  • 1.  ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 15 days ago
    I've searched this past year of posts and haven't seen any threads on ETD comparisons. I'd search previous years but with ETD software and hardware updates I'm sure previous year threads slowly become outdated.

    So, for those who have heavily used different ETDs or for those who only use 1 ETD...what are the comparisons and contrasts between the big name ETDs: Accu-Tunner, Cybertuner, Verituner, Tunelab?

    For those that use only 1 ETD, what features do you know of and find useful that other people who use other ETDs wouldn't too easily know about?

    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago
    My opinion on this is that tuners generally like the ETD they "grew up with". I started on an SOT and graduated to an SAT when they came out, and just feel comfortable with it. I have nothing against any of the other ETD. I just like my SAT.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    Hi Cobrun:
    I agree with Wim, that you tend to stick with the one you know and grew up on. Like, say, pianos! I also use the SAT, though I tried the Cybertuner before it went to the phone app. I used it for about 6 months, then sold it to another tech. It has way more bells and whistles than the SAT. But I got used to the LED's, and didn't like the Cyber display. I wish I could join the two, with the SAT light display fed by the Cybertuner. I like having a dedicated device, rather than a software based Swiss Knife. I still have the first SAT I from 32 years ago, still going, going.. I had it rebuilt years ago, and I use it as a backup. When I had the Cybertuner, I was using a Pocket PC, and I had to cobble together an external battery pack so I'd have enough juice to run it through the day or maybe two. That made things cumbersome. I guess the iphone version could last a day, but since it's a phone, I'd have to have a battery backup, or use a separate phone. And there's a maintenance fee every year.
    I have looked at the Verituner, especially when it was a dedicated box. Again, I have trouble warming up to the display. It's about half the price of the Cybertuner, and does an excellent job. I haven't used Tunelab, which is much more "gutsy", in that you have to understand a lot more about the tuning curves. It does have an automatic mode, but it shines best when using it more organically. It's half the cost of the Verituner, and again does an excellent job. There's also the OnlyPure program which uses the Perfect 12th tuning exclusively. I was a beta tester for it a couple years back. I found it more difficult to use because the display was not consistent. Maybe I just couldn't get used to it. But, after spending a lot more time tuning with it, it did give nice results in spite of taking more time. There are other devices, like the Yamaha unit and at least one coming out of the UK that I have no experience with. You could even get away with a chromatic Korg tuner or similar if you know how to tune by ear. Then there's the Peterson strobotuner, both from the distant past and more recent incarnations. I've not used that one, but from what I've seen, they are not quite comparable to the more modern software apps and the SAT.
    Your mileage may vary. Pick one, get used to it, you'll like it.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Cobrun Sells
    I've searched this past year of posts and haven't seen any threads on ETD comparisons. I'd search previous years but with ETD software and hardware updates I'm sure previous year threads slowly become outdated.

    So, for those who have heavily used different ETDs or for those who only use 1 ETD...what are the comparisons and contrasts between the big name ETDs: Accu-Tunner, Cybertuner, Verituner, Tunelab?

    For those that use only 1 ETD, what features do you know of and find useful that other people who use other ETDs wouldn't too easily know about?

    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com





  • 4.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    For what it's worth, our chapter did a comparison of TuneLab & Cybertuner years ago. It was informal & not overly scientific, but our conclusion was that one wasn't better than the other. They both had slightly different problems, but an equal number of them. So, I agree with what Wim & Paul said.


    As far as features I like, I like overpull, being able to change temperament styles, and the option to make fine adjustments to stretch if I actually wanted that (I typically don't, now even less since I'm doing more and more of that aurally). With TuneLab, I like being able to set it to only recognize neighboring notes or switch it to recognizing any note, anywhere. I like being able to change the display to magnify the inner 20 cents.

    Hope this is helpful. :-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    Jim Coleman the senior did a study of the existing ETDs and had an article in the PTJ. I don't know how to search for it.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Member
    Posted 14 days ago
    December 1998, "Electronic Tuning Aids" by Jim Coleman
    | || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
    jason's cell 425 830 1561







  • 7.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    Cobrun,
    I think your question deserves serious consideration, not just a "whatever you like response."
    Some familiar ETDs have had significant upgrades in recent years, and there is at least one new contender,
    PianoMeter.
    One problem is that to know what a program can do, you need to really commit to mastering it.
    Kent Swafford is the one person I know who actually uses three, maybe four programs simultaneously!
    Perhaps the Journal could offer each of the ETD companies a chance to publish descriptions of their programs, and perhaps follow  up with reviews from tuners who favor each program, telling why. The Journal doesn't want to be accused of favoritism, so it needs to offer each ETD equal opportunity.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 14 days ago
    Thank you Ed,
    I have used two separate ETD's and liked both, I stick with one now but I'm curious as to what the other ones offer...not that I'm going to make a switch but I would at least like to know. I also agree that probably the best resource to inquire would be someone who has rigorously used several different ETDs.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    Mr. Sells,

    I have used a SAT III for years and also own licensed versions of Tunelab, Onlypure, and Anthony Willey RPT's excellent Piano Meter. Onlypure was twice as costly as Tunelab and seven times as costly as Piano Meter. Tunelab recently came out with an upgrade called 3 part tuning which has proved to be a quantum leap forward in it's ability to deliver a high quality result across a wide variety of pianos. My copy of Onlypure is for Android and I don't think Mr. Stopper is still releasing updates on that platform. As such I will refrain from commenting on it's usefulness. Piano Meter is by far my favorite software tuning app. It is Android only so Apple users don't get to experience it's greatness. If I really need to have high resolution digital accuracy the SAT III is the only ETD I actually trust. That said, the reason I love Piano Meter so much is that I can turn it on and tune the piano by ear and only refer to it when I want to as it just follows me around wherever I choose to go.. It is the only program I have tried that can do that without constantly crashing. If you upgrade to the pro version and become a beta tester it has even more cool stuff to discover.
     I hope this entirely subjective review is useful to you.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago
    PianoMeter is now also available for iPhone.

    Also, if you have a hard time seeing the app on a phone, most of them will also run on a tablet, so you could have up to a 10" screen if you want. AND, PianoMeter will also run on Chromebooks since it comes from the Google Play store.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    I've used three different ones, SATIII, Verituner, CyberTuner, and my own wet ware for couple of decades before I bought anything.  

    All of them require some style tweaking to get what you want. Currently I use CyberTuner. The variety of customizable features I find useful but the most useful feature is SmartTune which none of the other devices really have. It allows for one pass pitch corrections (within reason).  Very useful if you do any institutional work, tuning multiple pianos in unison and just for general tuning efficiency. 

    David Love





  • 12.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 14 days ago
    David Love wrote that CyberTuner enables "one pass pitch corrections (within reason)". David, could you expand on this a bit. I'm especially interested in how this CyberTuner feature compares with that on the Verituner. I've been using the Verituner for many years.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago

    Terry

    I don't know the exact algorithm but it does work very well within limits (<20 cents and better <10 cents) and seems to auto set the overpull based on a trailing average. 

    I tried programming the verituner to do that  (I have that program as well) but couldn't get it to work as well. This feature on CT I find to be an incredible time saver. 

    I agree with some earlier comments that the display is not quite as friendly as the SAT but it also
    might be a bit more sensitive. That can be modified in settings, btw. In the high treble it can be a bit bouncy. But you get used to it. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 13 days ago
    Terrence, I also use Cybertuner and from the looks of it it records everynote as you tune from A0-C8. Let's say A0 is -20c. Cybertuner not only overpulls A0 by a certain percentage but it also adds that info into its calculation for A#1. Then, when you play A#1 it records it (let's say -15c) and tells you to overpull A#1 by a certain amount that includes the previous note's calculation; A0.

    It continues doing this for about one octave. After that it excludes any memorized data further than an octave behind where you are tuning; so if you are tuning B4 it has already forgotten A0-A#3 and only has B3-B4 in memory.

    Long story short: it measures each note beforehand and tells you to overpull base on the current note's and previous notes' measurements.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Member
    Posted 12 days ago
    Here's how TuneLab does pitch correction for me, and I'm consistently amazed at how accurate it is, even (today) a 90-150-cent pitch raise, from 1 to 88, unisons as we go, and when done I came back to F3 to start the fine tuning, and it was right on (within half a cent). In the far treble it turned out to be about 10 cents sharp after the pitch raise, but I was still pleased.
    Procedure for TuneLab overpull:
    1. Measure inharmonicity. Default is to measure six Cs, though I add six F#s as well as the notes right around the bass-tenor break.
    2. Design your three-part tuning curve: for example, 8:4 in the bass, 3:1 in the treble, and 4:2 octaves from F3 to F4. TuneLab maps the inharmonicity measurements onto those interval types and creates the tuning curve.
    3. Measure pitch. To set up overpull, first you tell the software where the bass bridge is and which is the highest wound note, and then start measuring. There are three degrees of measurement: every C-E-G, or every white note, or every note. I use the C-E-G method and it reads very quickly, tells you how flat that note was and prompts for the next note, all the way from C1 to C8.
    4. Correct the pitch. The software maps its overpull calculations onto the tuning curve, and you start tuning from A0, unisons as you go, up to C88, and the results are remarkable. Not much cleanup required on the next pass.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    425-830-1561
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago
    To use CyberTuner Smart Tune, first you sample A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, and choose many possible octave sizes.
    Then you enter the locations of plate struts in the scale, and where bichords begin.
    Ideally you then tune straight up from A0, all strings.
    Cybertuner reads and calculates an overpull for each note, and keeps a running record of the previous ten notes, adjusting according to its algorithm.
    Depending on the piano, how far off it is, and the needs and demands of the situation, it usually works rather well.
    For low demand, low cost tuning, one pass may do a very acceptable tuning.
    For higher standards, one pass will get the piano ready for a refined final tuning.


    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago

    FWIW all tunings I do are two pass tunings. The second pass on pianos that don't have much pitch correction are mostly unison checks. In the case of a smart tune pitch correction of less than 10c I find that note corrections are rare if you are careful with the first pass. Greater than that it depends. 20c corrections often require some small note changes in some sections, but not all. Greater than 20c usually requires some section corrections, but, again, not all sections. 

     What it does do is get the first pass very close even on larger corrections so on the second pass the corrections are very small. 

    Of course, if the piano is out of tune randomly, some notes sharp some nota flat, it's less effective. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago
    FWIW I get very similar results, using more or less the same process as Mr. Love, with the pitch raise programs in Pianolab and Piano Meter. With the SAT III I use the pitch raise function but re-calibrate every m3 instead of every octave. YMMV but the most important thing is that you have to listen to the piano to know if what you are doing is what you intend to be doing.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago
    All,

    CyberTuner in Smart Tune overshoots every note by a unique percentage of the difference between where the pitch of the note starts out and its target pitch.  It buffers that result by blending in a weighted average of the trialing 5 notes. This factors in all of the prior notes that have led to your tuned notes pre-drop.  There are also corrections for pre and post drop for the notes surrounding the void on the bridge under the struts.  This is why we can so accurately predict where each note will settle after one pass, certainly within 15¢.





  • 20.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago
    Carl,
    I have used PRCT for about 14 years and I swear by it.
    My only (slight) complaint is that 1/2 step pitch raises tend to come out a bit flat.  I use your suggestion to always shoot for a pitch a bit sharp, but it still misses by a bit (A 420 pitch raises usually come out to A 437 on the first pass).  Anything within 20¢ usually comes out to about 440.00.
    The sampling procedure seems to be quite easier than other machines (though I have had only limited experience with most of the other programs) and even the extreme treble and bass is close enough to satisfy any professional musician.
    (You can send me my commission on Venmo)

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    I'm an old aural tuner, thinking about getting an ETD to save time and to help with pitch raises.  Do you guys/gals have any advice on an effective way to use an ETD for larger pitch raises in the 50 - 100 cent range?

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Hi Walter:
    Most, if not all of the popular ETD's have a pitch raising feature built in. They will get you very close. The Cybertuner has the most accurate pitch raise feature, but the others will work as well. You'll get close enough to be able to put a stable final tuning pass afterward, either aurally or with the ETD. Past 100 cents, you may have to do a second pitch raise pass because the overshoot would be too much. It's not recommended to overshoot more than 33%, which would be necessary for a note that was 100 cents flat.
    If your ETD doesn't have a pitch raise feature, but does measure the flatness of the notes, you can calculate how much overpull you need. I use 25% in the bass and tenor sections, and 33% in the high tenor and treble past the tenor/treble break. The Accutuner machine (SAT III) uses 25% as a default overpull. So I do the 33% in my head. In the bass, I measure A2 and use that for the whole bass section. It gets me extremely close every time. Past the bass break, I'll measure and reset overpull at the first note, then only once again in that section about half way. I find that if I reset more than once in the tenor it ends up too high. I like to set the pins in the pitch raise,
    taking more time doing the pitch raise than the final pass. The closer I can get first time out, the final result is a more stable tuning, and it's much easier and faster.

    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Walter Bagnall
    I'm an old aural tuner, thinking about getting an ETD to save time and to help with pitch raises. Do you guys/gals have any advice on an effective way to use an ETD for larger pitch raises in the 50 - 100 cent range?

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio





  • 23.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago
    I use the RCT.
    For large pitch raises, I grab a file from the tuning library if possible. Otherwise I tune and measure the As.
    Then on regular tune, set the pitch at 441 in the bass and 444 in the trichords. As you pull, the RCT changes to the note you are playing. Check to see what happened in the tenor and adjust for the treble. Now you have an evenly tuned piano that the smart tune deals with wonderfully. I like to retake the inharmonicity readings again and I always play it hard before a final pass.
    It's interesting to watch the display as the note changes. The difference in the rendering as the tension comes up to pitch. I slow the rate of pull so as not to get ahead of the change. Jon's CBL makes a huge difference on many old pianos.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago

    Paul M. wrote: "I use 25% in the bass and tenor sections, and 33% in the high tenor and treble past the tenor/treble break."

    I think the percent overpull you are using is close to what is generally recommended. I've wondered for a long time why it is that it seems to work better for me if I use larger percentages. On medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. I've never understood that.



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Hi Terry:
    I think it has to do with how much time and care you use on the pitch raise. Like if you set the pin and what methods you use while tuning, if you use some reverse-twist on the pin or "flagpole" the pin to help with stability. Could also be the climate where you live, you know.. stuff. What software or ETD do you use, and how do you set it up for overpull?

    Paul McCloud


    Terrence Farrell


    Paul M. wrote: " I use 25% in the bass and tenor sections, and 33% in the high tenor and treble past the tenor/treble break."

    I think the percent overpull you are using is close to what is generally recommended. I've wondered for a long time why it is that it seems to work better for me if I use larger percentages. On medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. I've never understood that.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505





  • 26.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago
    Paul M. wrote: "I think it has to do with how much time and care you use on the pitch raise. Like if you set the pin and what methods you use while tuning, if you use some reverse-twist on the pin or "flagpole" the pin to help with stability. Could also be the climate where you live, you know.. stuff. What software or ETD do you use, and how do you set it up for overall?"

    I tend to try for a more accurate pitch raise than some. I do use some reverse-twist on the pin to try to get it in the range of stability. I know some argue to just ram through the pitch raise, but I find it to be worth the little extra time to shoot for a more accurate pitch raise. Climate here in Central Florida's modern air-conditioned homes is quite moderate - I rarely see pitch vary throughout the year in most situations.

    I use Verituner. I'm not sure what you mean when asking "how do you sit it up for overall"? As I stated, on medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. Is that what you were asking?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11 days ago
    Hi Terry:
    Yes, I was wondering if those percentages were configurable in the software.
    Your methods are pretty much the same as mine, as well as the overall climate. Though we don't have as much need for a/c. Humidity is probably 40-60% average. Inland areas are more extreme, and in the mountains to the east, so many homes there have a/c. Almost all my clients tune once a year. My business would double overnight if I lived back East. In the beach areas, and Coronado Island, I strongly encourage a damppchaser system to reduce rust, along with a string cover. I rarely install the full system because the humidity almost never falls below 30%.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Terrence Farrell
    Paul M. wrote: " I think it has to do with how much time and care you use on the pitch raise. Like if you set the pin and what methods you use while tuning, if you use some reverse-twist on the pin or "flagpole" the pin to help with stability. Could also be the climate where you live, you know.. stuff. What software or ETD do you use, and how do you set it up for overall?"

    I tend to try for a more accurate pitch raise than some. I do use some reverse-twist on the pin to try to get it in the range of stability. I know some argue to just ram through the pitch raise, but I find it to be worth the little extra time to shoot for a more accurate pitch raise. Climate here in Central Florida's modern air-conditioned homes is quite moderate - I rarely see pitch vary throughout the year in most situations.

    I use Verituner. I'm not sure what you mean when asking "how do you sit it up for overall"? As I stated, o n medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. Is that what you were asking?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505





  • 28.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 11 days ago
    Paul - Yes, one can specify any desired amount of overpull for three sections of the scale.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    I think those numbers are too much correction. 


    If I were programming the Verituner for overpull I would start with

    Bass  - 12%

    Tenor - 25%

    First capo section start at 25% and graduate to 35% by the middle of that section and remain there through that section

    Second capo section start at 35% through half the section and then graduate down to 15% by the time you reach C88. 

    Modify as needed.

    This will work pretty well with VT. With SAT or any device that doesn't actually measure each note as you are tuning and that are more limited in overpull selections it won't work so well. 


    I don't have any experience with Tunelab to comment there. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10 days ago
    David L. wrote: "I think those numbers are too much correction."

     I'm assuming you are referring to my stated pitch raising correction percentages - yes? I trust you mean that those numbers are too much correction for your use. I have raised the pitch of many hundreds/thousands of pianos using those percentages and they are what is required when I raise the pitch of a piano. My question was not whether they were "good" percentages - I know they work well for me - but rather why do higher percentages work well for me when lower percentages seem to work well for most others.


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago
    Yes. My comment was about one pass pitch raises, unisons as you go. The numbers you posted, in my experience, will leave the piano somewhat sharp of the target. 

    The goal of a pitch correction, even if you intend to do a full two pass tuning, is to leave the piano s close to the final pitch as possible. Otherwise you're doing another pitch correction, albeit, presumably smaller, on the second pass. 

    The numbers I posted, I think, are a good starting point for that and also capture what happens at the top of the piano where the pitch correction percentage should taper off as you reach the end of the bridge. 

    The difference between your 35% and my 25% will only be a few cents depending on the degree of the pitch correction (except at the top of the piano) but that's enough to render the first pass correction unusable as a final tuning if that's your goal.  



    David Love





  • 32.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 9 days ago
    I would think over pull percentage from -100 cents is a sliding scale.
    Is there going to as much drop in pitch from -100 to -50 cents as there is from -50 cents to 440? Or is there more?

    The increase in downbearing force and resistance from the board will vary.
    Old pianos that are that flat sometimes have not much crown to give up.
    Bridge height varies and so can final resistance before before the wire is in a straight line and any drop in pitch is after that is plate compression or the pinblock is tipping. LOL
    In my opinion, choosing overpull percentage should happen after you know the piano,, that's why I start with a lower percentage. You can correct as you go but boards change across their rib scale. Many you can guess. Yamaha's always seem to come up sharp in the upper end of the tenor section when I do them.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago
    For pitch raises in the range of 50-100 cents flat I don't think any ETA (I prefer the acronym ETA, Electronic Tuning Aid or App) will do it in one pass. For pitch raises that large I just plan on tuning it 2 times.

    If you're looking at a tuning app I'd recommend PianoMeter because it has the smallest learning curve with great results, in my opinion.



    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Of course. No machine claims to provide an accurate one pass pitch correction from 50-100 cents off.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 35.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago
    Here's a tip about the over-pull function that some people might not be aware of. It will also work when you want to under-pull the pitch. In my area it can get very humid in the summer with pianos going 30-50 cents sharp. If you want to float the pitch at bit, anticipating when it will be dry, just offset the tuning to A441 (or whatever you want to) invoke the over-pull function and you should land right where you want to.

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
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  • 36.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 12 days ago
    I've used a 1997 version of TuneLab, and it was excellent and I got good results and especially on top self-beating or false notes where the Fast Fourier pitch display could enable one to get a better unison.

    I've used also Piano Meter and it's good. 

    The Korg OT120 is fine for harpsichords but hopeless for pianos.

    But led by Michael Gamble who has used the CTS5 
    and always achieved good results efficiently, I managed to buy one second hand and every since have never looked back. I do all my work with it.

    The nature of the strobe display is helpful. It's an analogue display rather than digital such as one finds with digital software apps. As a result in the base one can see inharmonic ripples flowing through the main phase-display and this is a useful warning to check best tuning by ear. Of all devices I've been acquainted with it's this instrument that gives subtle signals that one recognises when one's been using it for a long time. Other ETDs tend to be very black and white in their indications, but this unit conveys nuances. Whilst it's always recommended to tune unisons by ear, when I'm in a hurry and want to, the machine is so precise as to be able to tune unisons reliable and arguably even more accurately than can be done by ear.

    I very much recommend ETD tuning for the specific reason that the machine immediately identifies strings that don't need tuning and can be left alone. Tuning with precision with no variability and leaving as many strings untouched can lead to least wear on the pin-block and longest term tuning stability.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 37.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast