Hi David:
I can understand your passion for non-equal temperaments. I've been blissfully tuning with my SAT for more than 30 years. At a convention a couple years ago, I heard a recording of two pianos, one tuned to an appropriate historical tuning, the other to a modern day equal temperament. Perhaps they were the same piano, I don't recall. The same piece was played, and though I'd heard about some differences, I had not been able to hear a real piano tuned to one of these historical tunings which had been originally used by the particular composer whose piece was being played. I was amazed to hear and feel the difference, as the somber melodies sounded much more authentic on the historically tuned instrument. The other one was too "sweet", which reminded me of bubble-gum music we hear in the modern pop genre. There was a seriousness to the music, which played more to the emotion I"m sure the composer intended the audience to feel.
Myself, totally ignorant of the methods of producing these historical temperaments, at this late stage I'm probably not going to pursue trying to learn them. But I can certainly understand why someone might have more than a passing interest.
As far as the Pianometer, unfortunately it's probably not going to help you in that direction, though by itself it does a good job of setting a good equal (as equal as it could be) temperament and full tuning. It does a wonderful job, at least as good as any other software-based tuning app. There are plenty of options and tweaks to satisfy any serious piano technician/tuner, plus the ability to save to Dropbox any tuning for future or backup purposes.
Best,
Paul McCloud
PS. As a little point of interest, my reply to Mr. Riley was intended to be private to him, and later I realized it was on the Pianotech list. My apologies to anyone who may have taken offense to what I wrote.
David Pinnegar
"That one person" responds that attached are numerous Pianometer tuning graphs of before and after tuning, the before tuned as to modern equal temperament, often straighter than the curve, and afterwards as untuned as perfectly as I'm able to, without stretch in the middle.
Tuning the unequal temperaments is a gamechanger where the relationship between notes is set by the tuning scheme in relation to fundamental frequencies rather than as set by the piano's eccentricities and its harmonics. Its inharmonics become irrelevant and the instrument finds new harmony of a different sort.
Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
YouTube remove preview
Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
Concert at Hammerwood Park in Unequal Temperament
View this on YouTube > is one of the Bechsteins as graphed attached, as untuned, of course by my methods.
Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Yamaha C7 Unequal Temperament is the Yamaha C7 similarly put out of tune by me and likewise the Fazioli Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli 278 Unequal Temperament
YouTube remove preview
Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli Unequal Temperament
The Finals of The Nice International Piano Competition. The Concours is historic in having adopted a High Definition unequal temperament to enable and encou...
View this on YouTube >
and Testing Concert Bosendorfer 280VC piano in Unequal Temperament
YouTube remove preview
Testing Concert Bosendorfer piano in Unequal Temperament
Bosendorfer tuned in standard equal temperament 0:01and then after 2:29 in unequal temperament. The recording engineer had to adjust his equipment for the se...
View this on YouTube >
Attached are graphs of tuning in the 1930s and in the 1960s and my style of tuning is closer to earlier and mid 20th century methods and a circle of British cognoscenti At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
YouTube remove preview
At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
In the next of our 'At home with Ralph' series, Ralph talks to the extraordinary David Pinnegar, owner of Hammerwood Hall, a country house in the South of En...
View this on YouTube > - this one with the Steinway 0 - and another with a Steinway C -
Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
YouTube remove preview
Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
Demonstration of Model C Steinway tuned to unequal temperament or "colour tuning." Debussy "The sunken cathedral" and Haydn F Minor Variations. Apologies for...
View this on YouTube > like the result.
So "that one person" :-) has his reasons for tuning in such a way and those reasons are musical. Inter alia the method adopted allows restoration of the pedalling of Beethoven
Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
YouTube remove preview
Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
Beethoven Tempest Sonata on an 1819 Broadwood tuned to Kirnberger III temperament. This piano was the same model as that which was given to Beethoven. Howeve...
View this on YouTube >
Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
YouTube remove preview
Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
Ralitsa Penkova performs on the 1819 Broadwood at Hammerwood Park. This instrument was the same model as was sent to Beethoven. Formerly at the Colt Collecti...
View this on YouTube >
and Chopin.
Here's a fun recording of the Haydn F minor variations tuned in Meantone, Well Temperament and Equal temperament.
Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament
YouTube remove preview
Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament
View this on YouTube > And I'm very sorry to have to tell you that every time I hear a well acclaimed pianist playing the Haydn F Minor variations on instruments tuned by no doubt most people reading this thread I know that such musicians cannot understand the music.
But you don't have to worry about my opinion . . . "That one person" is known to be rabid and fundamentalist as described elsewhere - " Explain to me what all this means " and so can safely and comfortably ignored completely. But anyone wishing to follow his methods will gain an enthusiastic bevvy of excited musicians.
The evidence is in the screenshots attached.
Best wishes
David P
------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
Original Message:
Sent: 11/27/2020 5:06:00 PM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: ETD Compare/Contrast
"That one person" responds that attached are numerous Pianometer tuning graphs of before and after tuning, the before tuned as to modern equal temperament, often straighter than the curve, and afterwards as untuned as perfectly as I'm able to, without stretch in the middle.
Tuning the unequal temperaments is a gamechanger where the relationship between notes is set by the tuning scheme in relation to fundamental frequencies rather than as set by the piano's eccentricities and its harmonics. Its inharmonics become irrelevant and the instrument finds new harmony of a different sort.
Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
is one of the Bechsteins as graphed attached, as untuned, of course by my methods.
Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Yamaha C7 Unequal Temperament is the Yamaha C7 similarly put out of tune by me and likewise the Fazioli Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli 278 Unequal Temperament
YouTube |
remove preview |
|
Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli Unequal Temperament |
The Finals of The Nice International Piano Competition. The Concours is historic in having adopted a High Definition unequal temperament to enable and encou... |
View this on YouTube > |
|
|
and Testing Concert Bosendorfer 280VC piano in Unequal Temperament
YouTube |
remove preview |
|
Testing Concert Bosendorfer piano in Unequal Temperament |
Bosendorfer tuned in standard equal temperament 0:01and then after 2:29 in unequal temperament. The recording engineer had to adjust his equipment for the se... |
View this on YouTube > |
|
|
Attached are graphs of tuning in the 1930s and in the 1960s and my style of tuning is closer to earlier and mid 20th century methods and a circle of British cognoscenti At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
YouTube |
remove preview |
|
At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar |
In the next of our 'At home with Ralph' series, Ralph talks to the extraordinary David Pinnegar, owner of Hammerwood Hall, a country house in the South of En... |
View this on YouTube > |
|
|
- this one with the Steinway 0 - and another with a Steinway C -
Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
YouTube |
remove preview |
|
Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn |
Demonstration of Model C Steinway tuned to unequal temperament or "colour tuning." Debussy "The sunken cathedral" and Haydn F Minor Variations. Apologies for... |
View this on YouTube > |
|
|
like the result.
So "that one person" :-) has his reasons for tuning in such a way and those reasons are musical. Inter alia the method adopted allows restoration of the pedalling of Beethoven
Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
YouTube |
remove preview |
|
Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament |
Beethoven Tempest Sonata on an 1819 Broadwood tuned to Kirnberger III temperament. This piano was the same model as that which was given to Beethoven. Howeve... |
View this on YouTube > |
|
|
Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
YouTube |
remove preview |
|
Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood |
Ralitsa Penkova performs on the 1819 Broadwood at Hammerwood Park. This instrument was the same model as was sent to Beethoven. Formerly at the Colt Collecti... |
View this on YouTube > |
|
|
and Chopin.
Here's a fun recording of the Haydn F minor variations tuned in Meantone, Well Temperament and Equal temperament.
Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament
And I'm very sorry to have to tell you that every time I hear a well acclaimed pianist playing the Haydn F Minor variations on instruments tuned by no doubt most people reading this thread I know that such musicians cannot understand the music.
But you don't have to worry about my opinion . . . "That one person" is known to be rabid and fundamentalist as described elsewhere - "Explain to me what all this means " and so can safely and comfortably ignored completely. But anyone wishing to follow his methods will gain an enthusiastic bevvy of excited musicians.
The evidence is in the screenshots attached.
Best wishes
David P
------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-27-2020 15:14
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: ETD Compare/Contrast
Hi Anthony:
Well, you sure have given me an education. I get what you're saying. You're probably right about trying to please that one person.
Personally, I prefer the regular "light" mode. I think it's easier to see. I don't worry about the battery life.
What I always tell people is, piano tuning is an art and a science. The science is in the middle, the art is towards the ends. If the temperament isn't right, everything else is going to be off too. No stretch temperament doesn't work, so why spend energy and time trying to make that feature part of the program?
Thanks very much for your explanation.
Have a great weekend.
Paul
Original Message:
Sent: 11/27/2020 12:20:00 PM
From: Anthony Willey
Subject: RE: ETD Compare/Contrast
On dark mode, yes, it's only for Android right now. Android had a couple of years head start on development, so I'm still adding some of the features for iOS, and dark mode is one of them. I should also remove the note about "saving power" from my website when the iOS rollout happens. Many newer Android devices have OLED screens that save power when displaying black pixels. But Apple devices, as far as I know, have backlit LCD screens without the power savings, so dark mode would be more for a functional/clean visual experience without the unneeded decoration. I'll probably also move the dark mode button into the menu somewhere on both platforms, since it's not something I expect people to switch back-and-forth frequently. (Dark mode also used to "save power" by not drawing the graph, but after people complained, I added the graph back and switched to a different graphing library that drew faster and used less processor power for both dark and light mode.)
On tuning without stretch, I've looked into this before and, 1. no PianoMeter can't do that, and 2. it's not as simple as it sounds, and there are good reasons for putting some stretch in the middle of the piano. I did a calculation several months ago when investigating this question and it turned up some results that surprised me but in hindsight make sense. Here's a graph of what happens when PianoMeter calculates a tuning with no stretch for the middle two octaves. (No stretch here is defined as tuning the fundamental harmonic to its theoretical equal temperament frequency, the way an off-the-shelf chromatic tuner would do.)
The red curve is a regular tuning for reference, and the blue curve is the one with zero stretch in the middle. (They intersect at A4.) As expected, the blue curve is flat in the middle. The surprising part is the way the blue curve jumps up and down when it reaches the ends of the zero stretch region. The reason it has those jumps is because outside the zero stretch region it reverts to attempting to tune clean twelfths and octaves, the things that compel us to stretch the tuning from theoretical equal temperament in the first place. But now the reference notes from which we're tuning those 12ths and octaves have been moved. For example, look at the first note on the right side of the flat region that jumps up above the original (red) curve. It jumps higher because the octave and twelfth that it's being tuned from are also above the red line (because those reference notes are on the left side of A4).
Put another way, the jumps on the sides of the flat region are because I suddenly jumped from artificially tuning all my intervals narrow to trying to tune them pure again. I suppose I could smooth out the transition points by trying to somehow force a more gradual return to normal tuning, but that's a lot of work to add a feature that I suspect only one person will use and that will confuse everybody else using the app. And I personally am not convinced that it's a good idea. In my opinion, the middle of the piano is the most important place to be tuning clean intervals. Maybe it's because I've never really gotten into historical temperaments, which I realize is the application David wants to use this for.
------------------------------
Anthony Willey, RPT
http://willeypianotuning.com
http://pianometer.com
Original Message:
Sent: 11-27-2020 08:36
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: ETD Compare/Contrast
Hi David:
I tried to do that, but I couldn't find a way. I wrote to Anthony Wiley, the creator of Pianometer, for his answer. I don't know if he's on this list or not, but if he writes back to me, I"ll let you know what he says.
Paul McCloud
David Pinnegar
If one can lock the tuning curve can one lock it into producing no stretch at all? And then get it to apply a tuning curve where one wants it?
Thanks
Best wishes
David P
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David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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+44 1342 850594
Original Message:
Sent: 11/27/2020 3:23:00 AM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: ETD Compare/Contrast
If one can lock the tuning curve can one lock it into producing no stretch at all? And then get it to apply a tuning curve where one wants it?
Thanks
Best wishes
David P
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594
Original Message:
Sent: 11/26/2020 12:36:00 PM
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: RE: ETD Compare/Contrast
There's a button on the screen that looks like a light bulb. Below it is a button to lock the tuning curve. Click on the light bulb.
Paul McCloud
Walter Bagnall
I got PianoMeter recently and so far I like it. The website says there is a 'Dark Mode' to help preserve battery charge, but for the life of me I can't find how to access it. Does anyone know?
------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe Ohio
Original Message:
Sent: 11/26/2020 11:43:00 AM
From: Walter Bagnall
Subject: RE: ETD Compare/Contrast
I got PianoMeter recently and so far I like it. The website says there is a 'Dark Mode' to help preserve battery charge, but for the life of me I can't find how to access it. Does anyone know?
------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe Ohio
Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2020 12:13
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: ETD Compare/Contrast
I'll give a shout out to PianoMeter. I've been using my SAT since I started 32 years ago. Ed Sutton's favorable opinion got my interest, so I decided to try it. With an Android machine, you can have all the features for $50/year. The pitch raise feature is very accurate. You choose what type of piano you're tuning (Studio Upright, Full Upright, Spinet, Console, Baby Grand, etc.) Then you choose two or three notes to measure, going up the keyboard (I use D, F and A). Simply play each one for a couple seconds to allow measurement. Then press the Start Pitch Raise button. It has spinner wheels like the strobe tuners of old, and just getting the wheels to "stop", maybe with some partials slightly flat, some slightly sharp, get you extremely close. I tuned a U1 yesterday, with the tenor section very close. I tuned that section without raising the pitch. Then I used the pitch raise feature to tune the flatter treble and bass section. It wasn't a big raise, and came out very well. I did a console the other day, and it was about 75 cents in the treble. The result after one pass was within a couple cents. I didn't have to stop and remeasure every half-dozen notes and recalculate in my head. I didn't have to make sure I was on the correct note (Pianometer always knows which note you're on). My SAT is now very comfortably sitting in my case as a backup. It's a nice program.
Paul McCloud
San Diego
Original Message:
Sent: 11/24/2020 11:55:00 AM
From: Gavin McGraw
Subject: RE: ETD Compare/Contrast
I second the idea of a tuning comparison at a conference, and recognize the difficult variables: various tuning lever techniques, tuner's familiarity and efficiency with a given ETA, etc.
Off and on for a number of years, I have tried to track the results of my pitch corrections. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of good data because of my inconsistent dedication to the project. I mostly did this with Tunelab, which can show you a list of all measured notes and their starting offset. Then in the tuning screen you can see the overpull offset. Years ago when I used Verituner (before my box died), I'm sure I was curious about this as well, but I don't remember what I did. Aside: now the Verituner FINALLY has an Android version, I bought it again and I look forward to using it.
Back on topic, I would like to add another significant variable, and that is the tuning curve of actual pianos as a result of climatic changes.
It is one thing to evaluate the change from 435 to 440. That would be interesting as a place to start But that is not how pianos behave in the real world, in my experience. Often there is a great difference in how out the treble is vs the bass. This is one thing I've tried to figure out with enough reliability for my own use, but it's a work in progress.
But based on what I've noticed, when you come to a piano that is, say, an AVERAGE of 15 cents flat, the tenor might be 10-ish cents flat with a couple outliers just above the break, the mid-treble might 25 cents flat, the high treble only 5-8 cents flat, and the bass might be basically where it should. Obviously a gross generalization, but sort of typical.
This is clearly the reason to use difference overpull percentages in different range of the scale, but starting with a flat average at another pitch standard would not show the differences of different ETAs in handling it, except perhaps in how bad the overcorrection is. Does anyone know if RCT uses a floating calculation, or more fixed (albeit user adjustable) percentages like Verituner? Perhaps that's proprietary. In TuneLab, overpull is adjustable by a single value to affect the overall overpull calculation.
Anyway, this uneven out-of-tune-ness makes it much more important for the ETA to base each note's overpull on the notes that were tuned before, or else a separate pre-measurement step like TuneLab does. Verituner does calculate overpull targets on the fly, and of course you can also add your own tweaks as you go by ear or experience, nd it sounds like RCT does the same thing.
Maybe some or all of you have thought of this already, and maybe in the end it's the same as measuring the change strictly from being in tune at one pitch standard to being in tune at another. And maybe doing it the other way is the only practical way of conducting the experiment. But I suspect that accounting for this average starting curve (which is probably quite different for a 100-cent correction than for a 10-cent correction) would make enough difference to be meaningful in practice.
------------------------------
Gavin McGraw
Orem UT
385-498-4376
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