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ETD Compare/Contrast

  • 1.  ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-15-2020 03:13
    I've searched this past year of posts and haven't seen any threads on ETD comparisons. I'd search previous years but with ETD software and hardware updates I'm sure previous year threads slowly become outdated.

    So, for those who have heavily used different ETDs or for those who only use 1 ETD...what are the comparisons and contrasts between the big name ETDs: Accu-Tunner, Cybertuner, Verituner, Tunelab?

    For those that use only 1 ETD, what features do you know of and find useful that other people who use other ETDs wouldn't too easily know about?

    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2020 04:42
    My opinion on this is that tuners generally like the ETD they "grew up with". I started on an SOT and graduated to an SAT when they came out, and just feel comfortable with it. I have nothing against any of the other ETD. I just like my SAT.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2020 12:05
    Hi Cobrun:
    I agree with Wim, that you tend to stick with the one you know and grew up on. Like, say, pianos! I also use the SAT, though I tried the Cybertuner before it went to the phone app. I used it for about 6 months, then sold it to another tech. It has way more bells and whistles than the SAT. But I got used to the LED's, and didn't like the Cyber display. I wish I could join the two, with the SAT light display fed by the Cybertuner. I like having a dedicated device, rather than a software based Swiss Knife. I still have the first SAT I from 32 years ago, still going, going.. I had it rebuilt years ago, and I use it as a backup. When I had the Cybertuner, I was using a Pocket PC, and I had to cobble together an external battery pack so I'd have enough juice to run it through the day or maybe two. That made things cumbersome. I guess the iphone version could last a day, but since it's a phone, I'd have to have a battery backup, or use a separate phone. And there's a maintenance fee every year.
    I have looked at the Verituner, especially when it was a dedicated box. Again, I have trouble warming up to the display. It's about half the price of the Cybertuner, and does an excellent job. I haven't used Tunelab, which is much more "gutsy", in that you have to understand a lot more about the tuning curves. It does have an automatic mode, but it shines best when using it more organically. It's half the cost of the Verituner, and again does an excellent job. There's also the OnlyPure program which uses the Perfect 12th tuning exclusively. I was a beta tester for it a couple years back. I found it more difficult to use because the display was not consistent. Maybe I just couldn't get used to it. But, after spending a lot more time tuning with it, it did give nice results in spite of taking more time. There are other devices, like the Yamaha unit and at least one coming out of the UK that I have no experience with. You could even get away with a chromatic Korg tuner or similar if you know how to tune by ear. Then there's the Peterson strobotuner, both from the distant past and more recent incarnations. I've not used that one, but from what I've seen, they are not quite comparable to the more modern software apps and the SAT.
    Your mileage may vary. Pick one, get used to it, you'll like it.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Cobrun Sells
    I've searched this past year of posts and haven't seen any threads on ETD comparisons. I'd search previous years but with ETD software and hardware updates I'm sure previous year threads slowly become outdated.

    So, for those who have heavily used different ETDs or for those who only use 1 ETD...what are the comparisons and contrasts between the big name ETDs: Accu-Tunner, Cybertuner, Verituner, Tunelab?

    For those that use only 1 ETD, what features do you know of and find useful that other people who use other ETDs wouldn't too easily know about?

    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com





  • 4.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2020 14:00
    For what it's worth, our chapter did a comparison of TuneLab & Cybertuner years ago. It was informal & not overly scientific, but our conclusion was that one wasn't better than the other. They both had slightly different problems, but an equal number of them. So, I agree with what Wim & Paul said.  


    As far as features I like, I like overpull, being able to change temperament styles, and the option to make fine adjustments to stretch if I actually wanted that (I typically don't, now even less since I'm doing more and more of that aurally). With TuneLab, I like being able to set it to only recognize neighboring notes or switch it to recognizing any note, anywhere. I like being able to change the display to magnify the inner 20 cents.

    Hope this is helpful. :-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2020 15:18
    Jim Coleman the senior did a study of the existing ETDs and had an article in the PTJ. I don't know how to search for it.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Member
    Posted 10-15-2020 16:03
    December 1998, "Electronic Tuning Aids" by Jim Coleman
    | || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
    jason's cell 425 830 1561







  • 7.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-15-2020 16:29
    Cobrun,
    I think your question deserves serious consideration, not just a "whatever you like response."
    Some familiar ETDs have had significant upgrades in recent years, and there is at least one new contender,
    PianoMeter.
    One problem is that to know what a program can do, you need to really commit to mastering it.
    Kent Swafford is the one person I know who actually uses three, maybe four programs simultaneously!
    Perhaps the Journal could offer each of the ETD companies a chance to publish descriptions of their programs, and perhaps follow  up with reviews from tuners who favor each program, telling why. The Journal doesn't want to be accused of favoritism, so it needs to offer each ETD equal opportunity.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-15-2020 18:46
    Thank you Ed,
    I have used two separate ETD's and liked both, I stick with one now but I'm curious as to what the other ones offer...not that I'm going to make a switch but I would at least like to know. I also agree that probably the best resource to inquire would be someone who has rigorously used several different ETDs.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2020 20:13
    Mr. Sells,

    I have used a SAT III for years and also own licensed versions of Tunelab, Onlypure, and Anthony Willey RPT's excellent Piano Meter. Onlypure was twice as costly as Tunelab and seven times as costly as Piano Meter. Tunelab recently came out with an upgrade called 3 part tuning which has proved to be a quantum leap forward in it's ability to deliver a high quality result across a wide variety of pianos. My copy of Onlypure is for Android and I don't think Mr. Stopper is still releasing updates on that platform. As such I will refrain from commenting on it's usefulness. Piano Meter is by far my favorite software tuning app. It is Android only so Apple users don't get to experience it's greatness. If I really need to have high resolution digital accuracy the SAT III is the only ETD I actually trust. That said, the reason I love Piano Meter so much is that I can turn it on and tune the piano by ear and only refer to it when I want to as it just follows me around wherever I choose to go.. It is the only program I have tried that can do that without constantly crashing. If you upgrade to the pro version and become a beta tester it has even more cool stuff to discover.
     I hope this entirely subjective review is useful to you.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-17-2020 09:53
    PianoMeter is now also available for iPhone. 

    Also, if you have a hard time seeing the app on a phone, most of them will also run on a tablet, so you could have up to a 10" screen if you want. AND, PianoMeter will also run on Chromebooks since it comes from the Google Play store.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2020 00:46
    I've used three different ones, SATIII, Verituner, CyberTuner, and my own wet ware for couple of decades before I bought anything.  

    All of them require some style tweaking to get what you want. Currently I use CyberTuner. The variety of customizable features I find useful but the most useful feature is SmartTune which none of the other devices really have. It allows for one pass pitch corrections (within reason).  Very useful if you do any institutional work, tuning multiple pianos in unison and just for general tuning efficiency. 

    David Love





  • 12.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-16-2020 05:49
    David Love wrote that CyberTuner enables "one pass pitch corrections (within reason)". David, could you expand on this a bit. I'm especially interested in how this CyberTuner feature compares with that on the Verituner. I've been using the Verituner for many years.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2020 18:57

    Terry

    I don't know the exact algorithm but it does work very well within limits (<20 cents and better <10 cents) and seems to auto set the overpull based on a trailing average. 

    I tried programming the verituner to do that  (I have that program as well) but couldn't get it to work as well. This feature on CT I find to be an incredible time saver. 

    I agree with some earlier comments that the display is not quite as friendly as the SAT but it also
    might be a bit more sensitive. That can be modified in settings, btw. In the high treble it can be a bit bouncy. But you get used to it. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-16-2020 19:11
    Terrence, I also use Cybertuner and from the looks of it it records everynote as you tune from A0-C8. Let's say A0 is -20c. Cybertuner not only overpulls A0 by a certain percentage but it also adds that info into its calculation for A#1. Then, when you play A#1 it records it (let's say -15c) and tells you to overpull A#1 by a certain amount that includes the previous note's calculation; A0.

    It continues doing this for about one octave. After that it excludes any memorized data further than an octave behind where you are tuning; so if you are tuning B4 it has already forgotten A0-A#3 and only has B3-B4 in memory.

    Long story short: it measures each note beforehand and tells you to overpull base on the current note's and previous notes' measurements.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Member
    Posted 10-17-2020 18:13
    Here's how TuneLab does pitch correction for me, and I'm consistently amazed at how accurate it is, even (today) a 90-150-cent pitch raise, from 1 to 88, unisons as we go, and when done I came back to F3 to start the fine tuning, and it was right on (within half a cent). In the far treble it turned out to be about 10 cents sharp after the pitch raise, but I was still pleased.
    Procedure for TuneLab overpull:
    1. Measure inharmonicity. Default is to measure six Cs, though I add six F#s as well as the notes right around the bass-tenor break.
    2. Design your three-part tuning curve: for example, 8:4 in the bass, 3:1 in the treble, and 4:2 octaves from F3 to F4. TuneLab maps the inharmonicity measurements onto those interval types and creates the tuning curve.
    3. Measure pitch. To set up overpull, first you tell the software where the bass bridge is and which is the highest wound note, and then start measuring. There are three degrees of measurement: every C-E-G, or every white note, or every note. I use the C-E-G method and it reads very quickly, tells you how flat that note was and prompts for the next note, all the way from C1 to C8.
    4. Correct the pitch. The software maps its overpull calculations onto the tuning curve, and you start tuning from A0, unisons as you go, up to C88, and the results are remarkable. Not much cleanup required on the next pass.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    425-830-1561
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-16-2020 20:16
    To use CyberTuner Smart Tune, first you sample A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, and choose many possible octave sizes.
    Then you enter the locations of plate struts in the scale, and where bichords begin.
    Ideally you then tune straight up from A0, all strings.
    Cybertuner reads and calculates an overpull for each note, and keeps a running record of the previous ten notes, adjusting according to its algorithm.
    Depending on the piano, how far off it is, and the needs and demands of the situation, it usually works rather well.
    For low demand, low cost tuning, one pass may do a very acceptable tuning.
    For higher standards, one pass will get the piano ready for a refined final tuning.


    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2020 20:56

    FWIW all tunings I do are two pass tunings. The second pass on pianos that don't have much pitch correction are mostly unison checks. In the case of a smart tune pitch correction of less than 10c I find that note corrections are rare if you are careful with the first pass. Greater than that it depends. 20c corrections often require some small note changes in some sections, but not all. Greater than 20c usually requires some section corrections, but, again, not all sections. 

     What it does do is get the first pass very close even on larger corrections so on the second pass the corrections are very small. 

    Of course, if the piano is out of tune randomly, some notes sharp some nota flat, it's less effective. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2020 22:42
    FWIW I get very similar results, using more or less the same process as Mr. Love, with the pitch raise programs in Pianolab and Piano Meter. With the SAT III I use the pitch raise function but re-calibrate every m3 instead of every octave. YMMV but the most important thing is that you have to listen to the piano to know if what you are doing is what you intend to be doing.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 01:24
    All,

    CyberTuner in Smart Tune overshoots every note by a unique percentage of the difference between where the pitch of the note starts out and its target pitch.  It buffers that result by blending in a weighted average of the trialing 5 notes. This factors in all of the prior notes that have led to your tuned notes pre-drop.  There are also corrections for pre and post drop for the notes surrounding the void on the bridge under the struts.  This is why we can so accurately predict where each note will settle after one pass, certainly within 15¢.





  • 20.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 01:52
    Carl,
    I have used PRCT for about 14 years and I swear by it.
    My only (slight) complaint is that 1/2 step pitch raises tend to come out a bit flat.  I use your suggestion to always shoot for a pitch a bit sharp, but it still misses by a bit (A 420 pitch raises usually come out to A 437 on the first pass).  Anything within 20¢ usually comes out to about 440.00.
    The sampling procedure seems to be quite easier than other machines (though I have had only limited experience with most of the other programs) and even the extreme treble and bass is close enough to satisfy any professional musician.
    (You can send me my commission on Venmo)

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 09:57
    I'm an old aural tuner, thinking about getting an ETD to save time and to help with pitch raises.  Do you guys/gals have any advice on an effective way to use an ETD for larger pitch raises in the 50 - 100 cent range?

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 10:44
    Hi Walter:
    Most, if not all of the popular ETD's have a pitch raising feature built in. They will get you very close. The Cybertuner has the most accurate pitch raise feature, but the others will work as well. You'll get close enough to be able to put a stable final tuning pass afterward, either aurally or with the ETD. Past 100 cents, you may have to do a second pitch raise pass because the overshoot would be too much. It's not recommended to overshoot more than 33%, which would be necessary for a note that was 100 cents flat.
    If your ETD doesn't have a pitch raise feature, but does measure the flatness of the notes, you can calculate how much overpull you need. I use 25% in the bass and tenor sections, and 33% in the high tenor and treble past the tenor/treble break. The Accutuner machine (SAT III) uses 25% as a default overpull. So I do the 33% in my head. In the bass, I measure A2 and use that for the whole bass section. It gets me extremely close every time. Past the bass break, I'll measure and reset overpull at the first note, then only once again in that section about half way. I find that if I reset more than once in the tenor it ends up too high. I like to set the pins in the pitch raise,
    taking more time doing the pitch raise than the final pass. The closer I can get first time out, the final result is a more stable tuning, and it's much easier and faster.

    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Walter Bagnall
    I'm an old aural tuner, thinking about getting an ETD to save time and to help with pitch raises. Do you guys/gals have any advice on an effective way to use an ETD for larger pitch raises in the 50 - 100 cent range?

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio





  • 23.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Member
    Posted 10-17-2020 12:46
    I use the RCT. 
    For large pitch raises, I grab a file from the tuning library if possible. Otherwise I tune and measure the As.
    Then on regular tune, set the pitch at 441 in the bass and 444 in the trichords. As you pull, the RCT changes to the note you are playing. Check to see what happened in the tenor and adjust for the treble. Now you have an evenly tuned piano that the smart tune deals with wonderfully. I like to retake the inharmonicity readings again and I always play it hard before a final pass.
    It's interesting to watch the display as the note changes. The difference in the rendering as the tension comes up to pitch. I slow the rate of pull so as not to get ahead of the change. Jon's CBL makes a huge difference on many old pianos.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-17-2020 15:57

    Paul M. wrote: "I use 25% in the bass and tenor sections, and 33% in the high tenor and treble past the tenor/treble break."

    I think the percent overpull you are using is close to what is generally recommended. I've wondered for a long time why it is that it seems to work better for me if I use larger percentages. On medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. I've never understood that.



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 21:33
    Hi Terry:
    I think it has to do with how much time and care you use on the pitch raise. Like if you set the pin and what methods you use while tuning, if you use some reverse-twist on the pin or "flagpole" the pin to help with stability. Could also be the climate where you live, you know.. stuff. What software or ETD do you use, and how do you set it up for overpull?

    Paul McCloud


    Terrence Farrell


    Paul M. wrote: " I use 25% in the bass and tenor sections, and 33% in the high tenor and treble past the tenor/treble break."

    I think the percent overpull you are using is close to what is generally recommended. I've wondered for a long time why it is that it seems to work better for me if I use larger percentages. On medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. I've never understood that.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505





  • 26.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-18-2020 05:32
    Paul M. wrote: "I think it has to do with how much time and care you use on the pitch raise. Like if you set the pin and what methods you use while tuning, if you use some reverse-twist on the pin or "flagpole" the pin to help with stability. Could also be the climate where you live, you know.. stuff. What software or ETD do you use, and how do you set it up for overall?"

    I tend to try for a more accurate pitch raise than some. I do use some reverse-twist on the pin to try to get it in the range of stability. I know some argue to just ram through the pitch raise, but I find it to be worth the little extra time to shoot for a more accurate pitch raise. Climate here in Central Florida's modern air-conditioned homes is quite moderate - I rarely see pitch vary throughout the year in most situations.

    I use Verituner. I'm not sure what you mean when asking "how do you sit it up for overall"? As I stated, on medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. Is that what you were asking?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 08:26
    Hi Terry:
    Yes, I was wondering if those percentages were configurable in the software.
    Your methods are pretty much the same as mine, as well as the overall climate. Though we don't have as much need for a/c. Humidity is probably 40-60% average. Inland areas are more extreme, and in the mountains to the east, so many homes there have a/c. Almost all my clients tune once a year. My business would double overnight if I lived back East. In the beach areas, and Coronado Island, I strongly encourage a damppchaser system to reduce rust, along with a string cover. I rarely install the full system because the humidity almost never falls below 30%.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Terrence Farrell
    Paul M. wrote: " I think it has to do with how much time and care you use on the pitch raise. Like if you set the pin and what methods you use while tuning, if you use some reverse-twist on the pin or "flagpole" the pin to help with stability. Could also be the climate where you live, you know.. stuff. What software or ETD do you use, and how do you set it up for overall?"

    I tend to try for a more accurate pitch raise than some. I do use some reverse-twist on the pin to try to get it in the range of stability. I know some argue to just ram through the pitch raise, but I find it to be worth the little extra time to shoot for a more accurate pitch raise. Climate here in Central Florida's modern air-conditioned homes is quite moderate - I rarely see pitch vary throughout the year in most situations.

    I use Verituner. I'm not sure what you mean when asking "how do you sit it up for overall"? As I stated, o n medium and large size piano I use 20% in the bass, 32% in the tenor and 42% in the treble. Is that what you were asking?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505





  • 28.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-18-2020 11:16
    Paul - Yes, one can specify any desired amount of overpull for three sections of the scale.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2020 16:27

    I think those numbers are too much correction. 


    If I were programming the Verituner for overpull I would start with

    Bass  - 12% 

    Tenor - 25% 

    First capo section start at 25% and graduate to 35% by the middle of that section and remain there through that section

    Second capo section start at 35% through half the section and then graduate down to 15% by the time you reach C88. 

    Modify as needed. 

    This will work pretty well with VT. With SAT or any device that doesn't actually measure each note as you are tuning and that are more limited in overpull selections it won't work so well. 


    I don't have any experience with Tunelab to comment there. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-20-2020 05:07
    David L. wrote: "I think those numbers are too much correction."

     I'm assuming you are referring to my stated pitch raising correction percentages - yes? I trust you mean that those numbers are too much correction for your use. I have raised the pitch of many hundreds/thousands of pianos using those percentages and they are what is required when I raise the pitch of a piano. My question was not whether they were "good" percentages - I know they work well for me - but rather why do higher percentages work well for me when lower percentages seem to work well for most others.


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2020 11:47
    Yes. My comment was about one pass pitch raises, unisons as you go. The numbers you posted, in my experience, will leave the piano somewhat sharp of the target. 

    The goal of a pitch correction, even if you intend to do a full two pass tuning, is to leave the piano s close to the final pitch as possible. Otherwise you're doing another pitch correction, albeit, presumably smaller, on the second pass. 

    The numbers I posted, I think, are a good starting point for that and also capture what happens at the top of the piano where the pitch correction percentage should taper off as you reach the end of the bridge. 

    The difference between your 35% and my 25% will only be a few cents depending on the degree of the pitch correction (except at the top of the piano) but that's enough to render the first pass correction unusable as a final tuning if that's your goal.  



    David Love





  • 32.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Member
    Posted 10-20-2020 12:53
    I would think over pull percentage from -100 cents is a sliding scale.
    Is there going to as much drop in pitch from -100 to -50 cents as there is from -50 cents to 440? Or is there more?

    The increase in downbearing force and resistance from the board will vary.
    Old pianos that are that flat sometimes have not much crown to give up.
    Bridge height varies and so can final resistance before before the wire is in a straight line and any drop in pitch is after that is plate compression or the pinblock is tipping. LOL
    In my opinion, choosing overpull percentage should happen after you know the piano,, that's why I start with a lower percentage. You can correct as you go but boards change across their rib scale. Many you can guess. Yamaha's always seem to come up sharp in the upper end of the tenor section when I do them.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-17-2020 12:50
    For pitch raises in the range of 50-100 cents flat I don't think any ETA (I prefer the acronym ETA, Electronic Tuning Aid or App) will do it in one pass. For pitch raises that large I just plan on tuning it 2 times. 

    If you're looking at a tuning app I'd recommend PianoMeter because it has the smallest learning curve with great results, in my opinion.



    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 20:51
    Of course. No machine claims to provide an accurate one pass pitch correction from 50-100 cents off.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-17-2020 14:16
    Here's a tip about the over-pull function that some people might not be aware of. It will also work when you want to under-pull the pitch. In my area it can get very humid in the summer with pianos going 30-50 cents sharp. If you want to float the pitch at bit, anticipating when it will be dry, just offset the tuning to A441 (or whatever you want to) invoke the over-pull function and you should land right where you want to.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-17-2020 14:37
    I've used a 1997 version of TuneLab, and it was excellent and I got good results and especially on top self-beating or false notes where the Fast Fourier pitch display could enable one to get a better unison.

    I've used also Piano Meter and it's good. 

    The Korg OT120 is fine for harpsichords but hopeless for pianos.

    But led by Michael Gamble who has used the CTS5 
    and always achieved good results efficiently, I managed to buy one second hand and every since have never looked back. I do all my work with it.

    The nature of the strobe display is helpful. It's an analogue display rather than digital such as one finds with digital software apps. As a result in the base one can see inharmonic ripples flowing through the main phase-display and this is a useful warning to check best tuning by ear. Of all devices I've been acquainted with it's this instrument that gives subtle signals that one recognises when one's been using it for a long time. Other ETDs tend to be very black and white in their indications, but this unit conveys nuances. Whilst it's always recommended to tune unisons by ear, when I'm in a hurry and want to, the machine is so precise as to be able to tune unisons reliable and arguably even more accurately than can be done by ear.

    I very much recommend ETD tuning for the specific reason that the machine immediately identifies strings that don't need tuning and can be left alone. Tuning with precision with no variability and leaving as many strings untouched can lead to least wear on the pin-block and longest term tuning stability.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 37.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2020 15:14
    Greetings all,

    There is a subtle asymmetry between pitch raising and pitch lowering.  You uderpull while pitch lowering slightly more than you overpull when pitch raising.  Our default on CyberTuner is an additional 2% for pitch lowering compared to pitch raising.  So if you were overpulling a note by 10%, you would be underpulling that same note by 12%.  This is because of the forces at work on the bridge.  When you overpull the rebound back down is in the same direction as the downward force vector load of the strings on the bridge.  When pitch lowering the rebound is against the downward force vector load of the strings on the bridge.  This constrains the rebound slightly.

    ------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-17-2020 15:34
    Carl, I did not know that. Interesting, I thought it was the opposite.

    I've had a fair number of pitch lowers this summer, even up to +25c. I even had a piano that was an average of +30c and by the time I got to C8, C8 was at +50c!!! I'm sure that before I started tuning the piano C8 was probably below +40c.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-18-2020 05:25

    Carl L. wrote: "You uderpull while pitch lowering slightly more than you overpull when pitch raising."

    Cobrun S. wrote: "I thought it was the opposite."

    My observations are consistent with Cobrun. I always "
    underpull" less when pitch lowering - maybe 20% or so. Seems to work for me.

    And Carl, what on earth is it about all these downward force vectors? And why am I picturing a series of 8"x10" color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one?



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 10:35
    My experience with pitch raises is also MOSTLY the opposite than what Carl describes, but I can thing of more than a handful of times when it did match what Carl says. I'm thinking it depends on 3 things: the amount of raise, how often the piano is tuned, and the piano itself.

    For huge pitch changes, I always need a greater overpull than underpull, but for small pitch changes it seems random (I haven't kept a record). The "random" part applies to pitch lowering; pitch raising seems fairly predictable but pitch lowering often surprises me. I can do a pretty darn good pitch raise without an overpull function, but TuneLab and I have about the same accuracy with guessing a pitch lowering, and it's not fabulous, although I'm getting much better with experience while TuneLab can't "learn" to get a "feel" for it.

    A piano that is tuned often is much easier to predict, both for me and TuneLab. Pianos that haven't been tuned in many years, I beat TuneLab hands down, no question, particularly on the extremely rare occasion the piano is sharp (it does happen, but less than 3x/year).

    Some pianos just resist change. In these cases, TuneLab & I are about even in predicting what will happen. Which pianos resist change seems random, so the only advantage I have over TuneLab is my experience, and I can guess around 1/4-1/3 of the way in how it's going to go and adjust accordingly.

    🤷

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 20:42
    I think Carl was referring to how RCT responds to large pitch changes, not how pianos over all respond.

    I more-or-less agree with Reyburn's belief that the changes in pitch pianos experience with weather and during pitch changes is from the soundboard moving (I do think that plate and back movement contributes some small amount).

    During pitch changes of 20¢ or less RCT seems to be quite accurate at predicting how most pianos will respond and most of my second passes are quite minor pitch changes - a bit intimidating actually.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-21-2020 18:33
    Hi Maggie

    Please do explain your protocol for aural pitch raising and lowering.  

    Also, with regards to how fast you can adjust pitch, which one would be faster, aurally or Tunelab?

    ------------------------------
    Mark Davis
    Piano Tuner/Technician
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2020 16:08
    Mark,

    My apologies. I didn't say exactly what I meant. I'm not doing "aural" pitch raises. I have had to deal with more than just pitch changes when tuning old pianos & got very good at guestimating how much to over or under pull to meet the needs of klonky piano shaped objects with lose pins, etc. By the time I've taken measurements for a pitch raise with TuneLab, I could have been a good bit into a pitch change & will end up with similar results. I'm still using TuneLab,  but am visually putting it about where it needs to be with the visual display zoomed in to expand the inner most 20 cents so I can better see what I'm doing. I can do a pitch raise much faster with TuneLab at the moment, but I haven't spent time practicing this skill. I've spent a large majority of my aural practice time AFTER the pitch change & haven't bothered to change that on the job.

    Sorry to disappoint. ;-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 07:37
    I use RCT for pitch raising and find it is not very efficient for pitch raises greater than 50 cents.  This is because the automatic note switcher gets confused and does consistently switch to the next note.  Having to resort to switching notes with my finger adds considerable time. This is a limitation to using RCT for large pitch raises. 

    My procedure for pitch raises over 50 cents is as follows: A fast pass with RCT on fine tune, set at a pitch slightly higher than my target pitch.  A second pass with RCT in pitch raise mode.  Sometimes a third pass with RCT in pitch raise mode is needed.  Return in two weeks for a fine tune.

    For pitch lowering, I find the opposite of what Carl said to be true.  If I use RCT for pitch lowering the pitch always ends up too flat.

    ------------------------------
    David Weiss
    Charlottesville VA
    434-823-9733
    davidweisspiano@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 10:08
    David, the best technique when doing a major pitch raise (say A1, in your 50 cents plus scenario), is to play the next note up (A#1#) briefly, which is enough to move the display up from the previously tuned note (G#1). Then strike A1 again. The CyberTuner measures A1's pitch & calculates the over pull.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 13:05
    Hi Patrick,

    Thanks for your reply.  I have tried that technique but it adds considerable time to the pitch raise and also leads to an inaccurate overpull calculation.

    ------------------------------
    David Weiss
    Charlottesville VA
    434-823-9733
    davidweisspiano@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 19:12
    I too am an old aural tuner. I prefer to do the mental math necessary, including pitch changes. I find that the machine overshoots more than I want to. I'd rather do a 15-20 min PR at no more than 10 cents sharp (no matter how flat it is) and come back and do it again which puts me extremely close to where I want to be. I've learned to do it quickly, but it takes concentration. 

    This is NOT a condemnation of ETD's. Just a comment that I think is appropriate. I find I need this to remain mentally sharp and focused. I am a very analog person, not very digitally proficient. I think what ETD's can do is pretty amazing, but I prefer the analog/puzzle solving/in the head method rather than relying on a device to do my thinking for me. 

    I know this thread is about ETD's. Don't anyone get offended. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 48.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 20:31
    Since I originally learned to tune aurally I used to do large pitch raises by ear and I was fast and accurate enough to usually get to within one CPS with one quick pass.  Then, with PRCT I can start a normal tuning and I am close enough that CyberTuner doesn't have much trouble.

    More recently I find that, even with the problems PRCT has with finding pitches that are significantly off it is still quicker and more accurate to muck on through.  Since RCT uses its own internal pitch standard it leaves each note closer to where it should be, unlike an aural pass where every note affects every other note and the entire piano is dropping (or rising) during a pass.  Occasionally I will stop PRCT and do a quick aural pass in the treble section.

    If a piano is 50¢ off it is going to be a sticky tuning job anyway and we need to charge accordingly for all the time.

    On large pitch raises I like to leave the piano at 441 (where I can get away with it) and I do a fine tuning.  I seldom have trouble enough to recommend anything other than an annual return tuning (teachers, musicians and bad pianos excepted)

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 49.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2020 20:43
    Thanks everyone, lots of great advice!

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio
    ------------------------------



  • 50.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-20-2020 11:44
    Perhaps it would be of value to have a simple objective comparison, such as:
    1-Tune a new piano, commonly encountered model, say a Yamaha U-1 to A=435Hz.
    2-Make one pass with an ETD, following the manufacturer's instructions.
    3-Measure the result with an automatically scoring tuning exam program.
    4-Repeat for other ETDs.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 51.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2020 14:23
    I would add to this list:
    5. How long it takes, unisons included, doing a pitch raise only.
    6. Repeat the test with different initial pitches, ie., 10 cents, 25 cents, 50, 100, etc. flat overall, or using A 435, 438, 441, 443, etc., to lower or raise the pitch to A440.
    7. Repeat the test, scoring individual sections where there is more drop in pitch such as the high treble. As opposed to simply tuning the whole piano initially to A435 in tune with itself.
    8. Overall time from beginning to final stable pass with all unisons.
    9?
    You might need to ask various techs to participate because each is using a program or device he or she is familiar with, and is presumably faster using it. It might take longer for one tech to do the test because they aren't proficient with a particular app/device. After all, it's about the time it takes to complete the job. Given enough time, any method will work.

    Having said all the above, if I were a betting man, I know which one I'd put my money on. (Hint: it's not my SAT).

    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Ed Sutton
    Perhaps it would be of value to have a simple objective comparison, such as:
    1-Tune a new piano, commonly encountered model, say a Yamaha U-1 to A=435Hz.
    2-Make one pass with an ETD, following the manufacturer's instructions.
    3-Measure the result with an automatically scoring tuning exam program.
    4-Repeat for other ETDs.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413





  • 52.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2020 14:44
    For an "apples to apples" comparison, ideally, it would be a group technicians, each one of whom would first gain comparable levels of proficiency with each app, and using the same tuning technique for each pitch correction. Other than that, what Ed and Paul have said.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 53.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2020 23:23
    Objective research such as this is sorely lacking in our profession.  I hear too much opinion of qualified tuners, but with normal human bias that skews their outcome to their own believed preference.


    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 54.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-21-2020 11:12
    I proposed my simple model because it is at least feasible given PTG's resources.
    You need one piano. It will require 10 tunings, five to detune to 435 Hz, five with major ETDs:
    SAT, RCT, VeriTuner, TuneLab and PianoMeter.
    This could be arranged at a PTG event, post-Covid.
    I would not worry about timing the tunings, just focus on the basic accuracy of the programs, so this would require careful tuning to the display, not intuitive corrections...we are testing the ETD, not the tuner! The tuner must understand the program, doesn't need to be a virtuoso program master with 30 years experience.
    Unisons must be tuned to see how well the program predicts pitch settling, but the unisons themselves should not be scored, just the string that was tuned to the ETD.
    It would be a start at gathering empirical results.

    1-Tune a new piano, commonly encountered model, say a Yamaha U-1 to A=435Hz.
    2-Make one pass with an ETD, following the manufacturer's instructions.
    3-Measure the result with an automatically scoring tuning exam program.
    4-Repeat for other ETDs.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 55.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2020 17:12
    But Ed, wouldn't that be self-referential on the part of each program? "I'm right because I say I am..."

    It seems we already have a process in place: The RPT tuning exams. The piano is, at least theoretically, tuned the absolute best it can be and recorded. Would't that standard be a good one to compare ETDs? After all, if you can't trust a CTE and 2 other RPTs, what other "absolute" (to the extent you can have one) tuning would there be?

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 56.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2020 17:59
    Scott, Ed an all

    At the 2014 Convention in Atlanta, I did something similar for our CyberTuner Class.  Before classes started for the day I tuned a Steinway B that was a tad below 440 and used Concert Smart Tune to raise it to 442.  I just followed the program tuning unisons aurally with no aural corrections.  At our class at the end of the day we measured the tuning using the exam program.  The tuning's lowest score was 96 with additional 98s and 100s.  Dean ragged on me for not having all 100s;-)





  • 57.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-21-2020 21:39
    Scott-
    There are many possible replies to your concern. One is that testing the program's ability to accurately raise pitch to its own standard is exactly what we want to test. Most ETDs can produce tuning to many different octave widths. The point is not to evaluate the various idealized tunings, but rather the ability of the program to attain an ideal curve in one pitch raise pass.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 58.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-22-2020 12:18

    I like this idea for a conference activity very much.  I haven't been to a conference for many years, but I would attend if this were on the agenda.

     

    By the way, in the last year or so I have used my Cybertuner in a new way to tune a large number of Kawai pianos in churches that go radically out of tune twice a year with swings in humidity.  Instead of using the Smart Tune (moderate pitch raise mode), which over- or underpulls, I do the opposite of what you would do in a pitch raise.  First I find the average pitch of the piano using 12-14 notes throughout the range.  I set the offset pitch to that average.  As I'm tuning, if a note was 20 cents sharp, I'll leave it something like 7 cents sharp.  Vice versa if it was flat.  This applies especially to the low tenor, which is almost always the worst section.  So as I go I use the ETD to tune visually, then check the octave and occasionally other intervals.  I leave the octave somewhat out of tune, just not horrible like it was.  So if the piano started out sharp overall, it is still sharp overall and certain sections are even more sharp, just not as much as before.  I have found that when I return 6 months later, the piano is not nearly as out of tune as if I had tuned it perfectly. 

     

    This method also has the advantage of being quicker than a regular tuning, because I end up not turning about a quarter of the pins, just checking that they're set well.  For my churchgoing customers, it means that the piano is closer to being in tune longer.  Not perfect, but these pianos are practically never perfectly in tune.  It would be very costly to the church to try to keep them that way.






  • 59.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 10-22-2020 13:09
    Loren-
    You bring up a topic I've hesitated to broach on Pianotech, but let's go to it!
    A concert tuning is one thing-I want it to be as close to perfect as possible for the next four hours, and after that, it doesn't matter.

    But in a home tuning, I want the piano to be as good as it can be for the next six months, even if it is never "perfect."

    So, if we're at the end of the dry season, and the piano is flat, and especially flat in the low tenor, if I tune it perfectly, knowing that humidity and pitch will soon rise, then, if I tune the piano perfectly today, I can estimate that in a few weeks it will be as far off on the sharp side as it is off on the flat side today.
    If possible I'd like to split the difference as much as the ear will tolerate, so that the seasonal shift is "amortized" over the year and the piano will have a longer time in tolerable tuning for average home use.

    The difficult question involves the low tenor, which inevitably swings more than the rest of the piano. How far off dare I leave those octaves? This is why I like to see the music on the piano and know who's playing and why.

    Let's assume there is about a 10 cents drop off in the low tenor. If I do a single string tuning with no pitch correction, when I pull in the unisons the tenor will be 2-3 cents flat of the rest of the treble. Not lovely, but workable for rough-hewn use, and it will stay within 3 cents above or below for several months. Or so I hope!

    This is not an approach I'd take with an advanced, committed player, though I'll propose that most pianos currently in use are further out than 3 cents at the low tenor.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 60.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-22-2020 13:30
    Ed,

    That's exactly what I would do in that situation.  I wrote an article on this subject which you edited for the Journal.  It was called Stability, Stability, Stability.

    The concept is that stability equals playability over time.  Anticipating the weather related rebound is using your tuning knowledge to direct your ETD, not the other way around.





  • 61.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2020 00:51
    Coburn, you've sparked a great discussion.  As I've heard Carl say, all of the top-tier programs are very good.  He will also say that you need to know how to tune a piano without one.  Greatly paraphrasing: you have to use your ears and what's between them.  :)

    I tuned aurally for the first five years of my career.  In 2013 I purchased my first ETD, Verituner.  It ran on the Windows Mobile OS on an old palm pilot!  I now upgraded to the Android version which I really like: it's not clunky, I already have the phone in my pocket and chargers nearby. 

    Even though I've been doing this professionally for more than ten years, I'm still learning about tuning all the time.  I use an ETD but I still check the tenor going down in 4ths and 5ths.  Relating everything to the middle section (the middle MUST sound sweet), I check octaves, double octaves, and yes, 12ths. The hot new topic in tuning is perfect 12ths.  I've gotten some really musical tunings using this system (which both iRCT and Verituner can serve up for your pin-turning pleasure).   Mostly I spend time playing the piano.  Chords, improvisation, it's a living breathing thing! You will get better results with more passes, refining the tuning each time. 

    The SmartTune function sounds nice on the iRCT for pitch-raising.  However I think it probably doesn't beat by much what I'm able to do with the slightly "dumber" Verituner.  See, I augment the software with my wet-ware.  Each piano is going to react a bit differently.  I use base percentages, doing something similar to what David Love describes above.  For pitch raises between 10-50 cents, I'll set the overpull to

    15% wound
    28% midrange
    30% first capo section, increasing to
    36% at the start of the second capo
    10% high treble I don't overpull much, I'd rather do additional passes there if necessary

    Here's the secret: there is a calculus that you can do in your head, that doesn't involve quadratic equations.  It involves all the experience you've synthesized over the years paying careful attention to what various pianos do when you add tension to them.  Size of piano, age of piano and it's various components, strings, soundboard, cabinet.  These are all factors.  I'll under or overshoot based on a hunch, and then I confirm or deny how this is going as I tune up the piano.  Lots of times I'm fairly close to where I need to be and the first pass is the only coarse pitch-correcting needed.  I do the first pass quick, using a Reyburn impact hammer on uprights.  Second pass I spend more time setting pins and strings (still using that impact hammer, it has saved my back and therefore my career).  Third "pass" is just cleaning up unisons, listening to make sure it's musical. 

    I like that with the Verituner I have to guess a little over or under sometimes.  It keeps me paying attention to the piano, which, over time, improves my own internal algorithm.  Computers have awesome power, but the brain of a true craftsman reigns supreme.

    Finally, if I haven't seen the piano before, and it has lots of other deferred maintenance, and if it suits the customer's needs, I'll sell them regulation and voicing (and repairs if needed).  Spending five minutes showing them what can be done with voicing and regulation will bring far more benefit than putting a perfect tuning on a piano and not mentioning the other ways tone and touch could be improved. 

    In conclusion, learn to tune aurally, you won't regret it.  Visit a convention and ask the folks at the booths to try out their software.  Pick a device and learn to use it.  Appreciate what it can do for you, but stay in the driver's seat.  

    Happy tuning my friend!




    ------------------------------
    Nicholas Litterski, RPT
    Austin TX
    512-573-8920
    ------------------------------



  • 62.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2020 11:55
    I second the idea of a tuning comparison at a conference, and recognize the difficult variables: various tuning lever techniques, tuner's familiarity and efficiency with a given ETA, etc.

    Off and on for a number of years, I have tried to track the results of my pitch corrections.  Unfortunately I don't have a lot of good data because of my inconsistent dedication to the project.  I mostly did this with Tunelab, which can show you a list of all measured notes and their starting offset.  Then in the tuning screen you can see the overpull offset.  Years ago when I used Verituner (before my box died), I'm sure I was curious about this as well, but I don't remember what I did.  Aside: now the Verituner FINALLY has an Android version, I bought it again and I look forward to using it.

    Back on topic, I would like to add another significant variable, and that is the tuning curve of actual pianos as a result of climatic changes.

    It is one thing to evaluate the change from 435 to 440.  That would be interesting as a place to start But that is not how pianos behave in the real world, in my experience.  Often there is a great difference in how out the treble is vs the bass.  This is one thing I've tried to figure out with enough reliability for my own use, but it's a work in progress.

    But based on what I've noticed, when you come to a piano that is, say, an AVERAGE of 15 cents flat, the tenor might be 10-ish cents flat with a couple outliers just above the break, the mid-treble might 25 cents flat, the high treble only 5-8 cents flat, and the bass might be basically where it should.  Obviously a gross generalization, but sort of typical.

    This is clearly the reason to use difference overpull percentages in different range of the scale, but starting with a flat average at another pitch standard would not show the differences of different ETAs in handling it, except perhaps in how bad the overcorrection is.  Does anyone know if RCT uses a floating calculation, or more fixed (albeit user adjustable) percentages like Verituner? Perhaps that's proprietary.  In TuneLab, overpull is adjustable by a single value to affect the overall overpull calculation.

    Anyway, this uneven out-of-tune-ness makes it much more important for the ETA to base each note's overpull on the notes that were tuned before, or else a separate pre-measurement step like TuneLab does.  Verituner does calculate overpull targets on the fly, and of course you can also add your own tweaks as you go by ear or experience, nd it sounds like RCT does the same thing.

    Maybe some or all of you have thought of this already, and maybe in the end it's the same as measuring the change strictly from being in tune at one pitch standard to being in tune at another.  And maybe doing it the other way is the only practical way of conducting the experiment.  But I suspect that accounting for this average starting curve (which is probably quite different for a 100-cent correction than for a 10-cent correction) would make enough difference to be meaningful in practice.

    ------------------------------
    Gavin McGraw
    Orem UT
    385-498-4376
    ------------------------------
    -------


  • 63.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2020 12:14
    I'll give a shout out to PianoMeter. I've been using my SAT since I started 32 years ago. Ed Sutton's favorable opinion got my interest, so I decided to try it. With an Android machine, you can have all the features for $50/year. The pitch raise feature is very accurate. You choose what type of piano you're tuning (Studio Upright, Full Upright, Spinet, Console, Baby Grand, etc.) Then you choose two or three notes to measure, going up the keyboard (I use D, F and A). Simply play each one for a couple seconds to allow measurement. Then press the Start Pitch Raise button. It has spinner wheels like the strobe tuners of old, and just getting the wheels to "stop", maybe with some partials slightly flat, some slightly sharp, get you extremely close. I tuned a U1 yesterday, with the tenor section very close. I tuned that section without raising the pitch. Then I used the pitch raise feature to tune the flatter treble and bass section. It wasn't a big raise, and came out very well. I did a console the other day, and it was about 75 cents in the treble. The result after one pass was within a couple cents. I didn't have to stop and remeasure every half-dozen notes and recalculate in my head. I didn't have to make sure I was on the correct note (Pianometer always knows which note you're on). My SAT is now very comfortably sitting in my case as a backup. It's a nice program.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




  • 64.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2020 11:43
    I got PianoMeter recently and so far I like it.  The website says there is a 'Dark Mode' to help preserve battery charge, but for the life of me I can't find how to access it.  Does anyone know?

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio
    ------------------------------



  • 65.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2020 12:36
    There's a button on the screen that looks like a light bulb. Below it is a button to lock the tuning curve. Click on the light bulb.
    Paul McCloud


    Walter Bagnall
    I got PianoMeter recently and so far I like it. The website says there is a 'Dark Mode' to help preserve battery charge, but for the life of me I can't find how to access it. Does anyone know?

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio





  • 66.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2020 17:32
    Thanks Paul,
    Looking at the website again, it looks like the Dark Mode is only shown for Android; for some reason the light bulb to click on is not there for iOS version.  Maybe it will be added with a future update.

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio
    ------------------------------



  • 67.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2020 18:59
    Hi Walter:
    Indeed! I have the hobby version on my iphone, and it doesn't have dark mode. I don't have the pro version on my iphone, so I am not sure if that pro version has that feature. I have a backup battery anyway in case it runs the battery down, which it will if you do more than two or three tunings.
    Paul McCloud


    Thanks Paul,
    Looking at the website again, it looks like the Dark Mode is only shown for Android; for some reason the light bulb to click on is not there for iOS version. Maybe it will be added with a future update.

    ------------------------------
    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe Ohio





  • 68.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 11-27-2020 03:23
    If one can lock the tuning curve can one lock it into producing no stretch at all? And then get it to apply a tuning curve where one wants it?

    Thanks

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 69.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2020 08:37
    Hi David:
    I tried to do that, but I couldn't find a way. I wrote to Anthony Wiley, the creator of Pianometer, for his answer. I don't know if he's on this list or not, but if he writes back to me, I"ll let you know what he says.
    Paul McCloud


    David Pinnegar


    If one can lock the tuning curve can one lock it into producing no stretch at all? And then get it to apply a tuning curve where one wants it?


    Thanks


    Best wishes


    David P


    --



    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594




  • 70.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2020 12:20
    On dark mode, yes, it's only for Android right now. Android had a couple of years head start on development, so I'm still adding some of the features for iOS, and dark mode is one of them. I should also remove the note about "saving power" from my website when the iOS rollout happens. Many newer Android devices have OLED screens that save power when displaying black pixels. But Apple devices, as far as I know, have backlit LCD screens without the power savings, so dark mode would be more for a functional/clean visual experience without the unneeded decoration. I'll probably also move the dark mode button into the menu somewhere on both platforms, since it's not something I expect people to switch back-and-forth frequently. (Dark mode also used to "save power" by not drawing the graph, but after people complained, I added the graph back and switched to a different graphing library that drew faster and used less processor power for both dark and light mode.)

    On tuning without stretch, I've looked into this before and, 1. no PianoMeter can't do that, and 2. it's not as simple as it sounds, and there are good reasons for putting some stretch in the middle of the piano. I did a calculation several months ago when investigating this question and it turned up some results that surprised me but in hindsight make sense. Here's a graph of what happens when PianoMeter calculates a tuning with no stretch for the middle two octaves. (No stretch here is defined as tuning the fundamental harmonic to its theoretical equal temperament frequency, the way an off-the-shelf chromatic tuner would do.)
    The red curve is a regular tuning for reference, and the blue curve is the one with zero stretch in the middle. (They intersect at A4.) As expected, the blue curve is flat in the middle. The surprising part is the way the blue curve jumps up and down when it reaches the ends of the zero stretch region. The reason it has those jumps is because outside the zero stretch region it reverts to attempting to tune clean twelfths and octaves, the things that compel us to stretch the tuning from theoretical equal temperament in the first place. But now the reference notes from which we're tuning those 12ths and octaves have been moved. For example, look at the first note on the right side of the flat region that jumps up above the original (red) curve. It jumps higher because the octave and twelfth that it's being tuned from are also above the red line (because those reference notes are on the left side of A4).

    Put another way, the jumps on the sides of the flat region are because I suddenly jumped from artificially tuning all my intervals narrow to trying to tune them pure again. I suppose I could smooth out the transition points by trying to somehow force a more gradual return to normal tuning, but that's a lot of work to add a feature that I suspect only one person will use and that will confuse everybody else using the app. And I personally am not convinced that it's a good idea. In my opinion, the middle of the piano is the most important place to be tuning clean intervals. Maybe it's because I've never really gotten into historical temperaments, which I realize is the application David wants to use this for.

    ------------------------------
    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
    ------------------------------



  • 71.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2020 15:15
    Hi Anthony:
    Well, you sure have given me an education. I get what you're saying. You're probably right about trying to please that one person.
    Personally, I prefer the regular "light" mode. I think it's easier to see. I don't worry about the battery life.
    What I always tell people is, piano tuning is an art and a science. The science is in the middle, the art is towards the ends. If the temperament isn't right, everything else is going to be off too. No stretch temperament doesn't work, so why spend energy and time trying to make that feature part of the program?
    Thanks very much for your explanation.
    Have a great weekend.
    Paul




  • 72.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 11-27-2020 17:06
    "That one person" responds that attached are numerous Pianometer tuning graphs of before and after tuning, the before tuned as to modern equal temperament, often straighter than the curve, and afterwards as untuned as perfectly as I'm able to, without stretch in the middle.

    Tuning the unequal temperaments is a gamechanger where the relationship between notes is set by the tuning scheme in relation to fundamental frequencies rather than as set by the piano's eccentricities and its harmonics. Its inharmonics become irrelevant and the instrument finds new harmony of a different sort.

    Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview
    Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
    Concert at Hammerwood Park in Unequal Temperament
    View this on YouTube >
    is one of the Bechsteins as graphed attached, as untuned, of course by my methods.

    Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Yamaha C7 Unequal Temperament is the Yamaha C7 similarly put out of tune by me and likewise the Fazioli Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli 278 Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview
    Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli Unequal Temperament
    The Finals of The Nice International Piano Competition. The Concours is historic in having adopted a High Definition unequal temperament to enable and encou...
    View this on YouTube >
     
    and Testing Concert Bosendorfer 280VC piano in Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview
    Testing Concert Bosendorfer piano in Unequal Temperament
    Bosendorfer tuned in standard equal temperament 0:01and then after 2:29 in unequal temperament. The recording engineer had to adjust his equipment for the se...
    View this on YouTube >

    Attached are graphs of tuning in the 1930s and in the 1960s and my style of tuning is closer to earlier and mid 20th century methods and a circle of British cognoscenti At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
    YouTube remove preview
    At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
    In the next of our 'At home with Ralph' series, Ralph talks to the extraordinary David Pinnegar, owner of Hammerwood Hall, a country house in the South of En...
    View this on YouTube >
    - this one with the Steinway 0 - and another with a Steinway C -
    Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
    YouTube remove preview
    Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
    Demonstration of Model C Steinway tuned to unequal temperament or "colour tuning." Debussy "The sunken cathedral" and Haydn F Minor Variations. Apologies for...
    View this on YouTube >
    like the result.

    So "that one person" :-) has his reasons for tuning in such a way and those reasons are musical. Inter alia the method adopted allows restoration of the pedalling of Beethoven
    Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview
    Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
    Beethoven Tempest Sonata on an 1819 Broadwood tuned to Kirnberger III temperament. This piano was the same model as that which was given to Beethoven. Howeve...
    View this on YouTube >

    Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
    YouTube remove preview
    Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
    Ralitsa Penkova performs on the 1819 Broadwood at Hammerwood Park. This instrument was the same model as was sent to Beethoven. Formerly at the Colt Collecti...
    View this on YouTube >
     
    and Chopin.

    Here's a fun recording of the Haydn F minor variations tuned in Meantone, Well Temperament and Equal temperament.
    Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament
    YouTube remove preview
    Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament
    View this on YouTube >
    And I'm very sorry to have to tell you that every time I hear a well acclaimed pianist playing the Haydn F Minor variations on instruments tuned by no doubt most people reading this thread I know that such musicians cannot understand the music.

    But you don't have to worry about my opinion . . . "That one person" is known to be rabid and fundamentalist as described elsewhere - "Explain to me what all this means " and so can safely and comfortably ignored completely. But anyone wishing to follow his methods will gain an enthusiastic bevvy of excited musicians.

    The evidence is in the screenshots attached.

    Best wishes

    David P




    ------------------------------
    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
    +44 1342 850594
    "High Definition" Tuning
    ------------------------------



  • 73.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2020 17:28
    Hi David:
    I can understand your passion for non-equal temperaments. I've been blissfully tuning with my SAT for more than 30 years. At a convention a couple years ago, I heard a recording of two pianos, one tuned to an appropriate historical tuning, the other to a modern day equal temperament. Perhaps they were the same piano, I don't recall. The same piece was played, and though I'd heard about some differences, I had not been able to hear a real piano tuned to one of these historical tunings which had been originally used by the particular composer whose piece was being played. I was amazed to hear and feel the difference, as the somber melodies sounded much more authentic on the historically tuned instrument. The other one was too "sweet", which reminded me of bubble-gum music we hear in the modern pop genre. There was a seriousness to the music, which played more to the emotion I"m sure the composer intended the audience to feel.
    Myself, totally ignorant of the methods of producing these historical temperaments, at this late stage I'm probably not going to pursue trying to learn them. But I can certainly understand why someone might have more than a passing interest.
    As far as the Pianometer, unfortunately it's probably not going to help you in that direction, though by itself it does a good job of setting a good equal (as equal as it could be) temperament and full tuning. It does a wonderful job, at least as good as any other software-based tuning app. There are plenty of options and tweaks to satisfy any serious piano technician/tuner, plus the ability to save to Dropbox any tuning for future or backup purposes.
    Best,
    Paul McCloud
    PS. As a little point of interest, my reply to Mr. Riley was intended to be private to him, and later I realized it was on the Pianotech list. My apologies to anyone who may have taken offense to what I wrote.


    David Pinnegar
    "That one person" responds that attached are numerous Pianometer tuning graphs of before and after tuning, the before tuned as to modern equal temperament, often straighter than the curve, and afterwards as untuned as perfectly as I'm able to, without stretch in the middle.

    Tuning the unequal temperaments is a gamechanger where the relationship between notes is set by the tuning scheme in relation to fundamental frequencies rather than as set by the piano's eccentricities and its harmonics. Its inharmonics become irrelevant and the instrument finds new harmony of a different sort.

    Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview


    Bach in a good Unequal Temperament
    Concert at Hammerwood Park in Unequal Temperament
    View this on YouTube > is one of the Bechsteins as graphed attached, as untuned, of course by my methods.

    Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Yamaha C7 Unequal Temperament is the Yamaha C7 similarly put out of tune by me and likewise the Fazioli Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli 278 Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview


    Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 - Fazioli Unequal Temperament
    The Finals of The Nice International Piano Competition. The Concours is historic in having adopted a High Definition unequal temperament to enable and encou...
    View this on YouTube >
    and Testing Concert Bosendorfer 280VC piano in Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview


    Testing Concert Bosendorfer piano in Unequal Temperament
    Bosendorfer tuned in standard equal temperament 0:01and then after 2:29 in unequal temperament. The recording engineer had to adjust his equipment for the se...
    View this on YouTube >
    Attached are graphs of tuning in the 1930s and in the 1960s and my style of tuning is closer to earlier and mid 20th century methods and a circle of British cognoscenti At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
    YouTube remove preview


    At home with Ralph: Tuning with David Pinnegar
    In the next of our 'At home with Ralph' series, Ralph talks to the extraordinary David Pinnegar, owner of Hammerwood Hall, a country house in the South of En...
    View this on YouTube > - this one with the Steinway 0 - and another with a Steinway C -
    Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
    YouTube remove preview


    Steinway Model C Demo - Unequal Temperament - Debussy & Haydn
    Demonstration of Model C Steinway tuned to unequal temperament or "colour tuning." Debussy "The sunken cathedral" and Haydn F Minor Variations. Apologies for...
    View this on YouTube > like the result.

    So "that one person" :-) has his reasons for tuning in such a way and those reasons are musical. Inter alia the method adopted allows restoration of the pedalling of Beethoven
    Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
    YouTube remove preview


    Beethoven Tempest Sonata, 1819 Broadwood, Unequal Temperament
    Beethoven Tempest Sonata on an 1819 Broadwood tuned to Kirnberger III temperament. This piano was the same model as that which was given to Beethoven. Howeve...
    View this on YouTube >
    Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
    YouTube remove preview


    Beethoven Moonlight Sonata on 1819 Broadwood
    Ralitsa Penkova performs on the 1819 Broadwood at Hammerwood Park. This instrument was the same model as was sent to Beethoven. Formerly at the Colt Collecti...
    View this on YouTube >
    and Chopin.

    Here's a fun recording of the Haydn F minor variations tuned in Meantone, Well Temperament and Equal temperament.
    Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament
    YouTube remove preview


    Haydn F Minor Variations Meantone, unequal temperament and equal temperament

    View this on YouTube > And I'm very sorry to have to tell you that every time I hear a well acclaimed pianist playing the Haydn F Minor variations on instruments tuned by no doubt most people reading this thread I know that such musicians cannot understand the music.

    But you don't have to worry about my opinion . . . "That one person" is known to be rabid and fundamentalist as described elsewhere - " Explain to me what all this means " and so can safely and comfortably ignored completely. But anyone wishing to follow his methods will gain an enthusiastic bevvy of excited musicians.

    The evidence is in the screenshots attached.

    Best wishes

    David P




    ------------------------------
    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
    +44 1342 850594
    "High Definition" Tuning





  • 74.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 11-27-2020 17:47
    Hi Paul

    No offense taken. The indignation was tongue in cheek.

    Thanks and great to hear about your experience. The other thing that Pianometer does, and does extremely well, is to graph the instrument before and after. It gives a guide as to how well in an instrument is, or for how long it's been neglected, or where one might expect problems. After having tuned, it also is a really helpful indication to see any particular note stands out or might have dropped and needs revisiting.

    In my view it's one of the most promising pieces of software, and one day if it can be tamed to do a straight line in the middle three octaves, it would enable me to instruct others with certainty to achieve similar results. Out of preference, for another reason, I'd like to be able to specify the note that it's listening for. 

    Anyway, I hope that people might enjoy the recordings and that the attachments, visible on the site rather than on the emails sent out, might bring inspirations.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 75.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2020 17:58
    Hi David:
    I"m curious to know what, if any, tuning ETD you might have access to. If you don't have or use one, I can understand your interest in Pianometer. The SAT's I have (3 of them) have the capability to listen to any partial anywhere on the piano scale and measure it, within limits at the ends of the piano. I believe the SAT would be able to do what you're asking for. I'm not sure of the other software devices, though I suspect the Cybertune could. I don't have any of the others besides the Pianometer. Of course, it can detect any note immediately. The SAT is unable to do that. You have to tell it what note you're on, and specify the partial you want it to listen to, if you want it to remember. Or just dial up the note/octave and measure it.
    I'll take a listen to your recordings. Thanks!

    Best,
    Paul McCloud





    Hi Paul


    No offense taken. The indignation was tongue in cheek.


    Thanks and great to hear about your experience. The other thing that Pianometer does, and does extremely well, is to graph the instrument before and after. It gives a guide as to how well in an instrument is, or for how long it's been neglected, or where one might expect problems. After having tuned, it also is a really helpful indication to see any particular note stands out or might have dropped and needs revisiting.


    In my view it's one of the most promising pieces of software, and one day if it can be tamed to do a straight line in the middle three octaves, it would enable me to instruct others with certainty to achieve similar results. Out of preference, for another reason, I'd like to be able to specify the note that it's listening for.


    Anyway, I hope that people might enjoy the recordings and that the attachments, visible on the site rather than on the emails sent out, might bring inspirations.



    Best wishes


    David P




  • 76.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 11-27-2020 18:21
    I followed the lead of Michael Gamble who's mentored me for some years and use a CTS5
    https://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/index.php?l=product_list&c=25
    which has a number of temperaments and control over stretch with 5 or 6 standard settings. At the treble end I'll set the tuner to listen to the 2nd harmonic of the note an octave below and choose the best setting, and at the bass end I have a special formula.

    In looking for "Historical Tuning Aids" Google turned up https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/17/technology/piano-tuners-have-built-a-bridge-to-18th-century.html . . .  I'm a few decades behind the times, led by Paul Bailey reported there working with historic temperaments from 1992 and Mr Callahan in California. Someone reading this thread probably knows him personally . . . If the local chapter can get him to do a seminar . . . fascinations will ensue I'm sure.

    Best wishes

    David P



    .



    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 77.  RE: ETD Compare/Contrast

    Posted 11-27-2020 23:35
    In writing the Verituner User Guide, early on I wanted to include a section on unequal temperaments. Not having the knowledge to accomplish the task alone, especially for the target audience of piano tuners, I got considerable help from Paul Bailey and Dr. Claudio Di Veroli. Owen Jorgensen and Ed Foote also made contributions. Thus, my role was largely that of an enthusiastic reporter.

    The User Guide can be downloaded here:

    https://www.veritune.com/download/iOS-User-Guide-7-24-18.pdf

    The section on unequal temperaments (Appendix D)  begins on page 69. The information can be useful for users of any ETD device, especially if the temperament offsets can be entered manually. Offsets for many UTs are given.

    ------------------------------
    David Bauguess
    Grand Junction CO
    970-257-1750
    ------------------------------