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The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

  • 1.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-14-2008 08:42 
    From "Conrad Hoffsommer" <hoffsoco@luther.edu>

On 10/14/08, AlliedPianoCraft <AlliedPianoCraft@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dale!!!!
>
> Now you've gotten me all excited!
>
> I'll have to go and find a piano that needs new hammers.
>
> Al Guecia
>

Dale,

I've got a newly (last week) acquired/gifted 1916 5'2" Knabe  with
well truncated hammers. Would it be a candidate for said hammers?



-- 
Conrad Hoffsommer, RPT
Luther College
Decorah, IA


  • 2.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2008 09:55 
    From erwinspiano@aol.com

Hi Conrad
? The feed back that's coming in from?my highly skilled testers have been very gratifying. My description would be "Warm clear sound,powerful blooming sustain without the characteristic sound of overly densified hammers and power without noise.
?From Testers:
? " PPP like I never heard before." Tom Servinsky. Installed on a Yamaha C-7 recording studio
?? "If this is what your producing this is my default hammer of choice"? David Love.??A?David Love custom restoration, Model O Steinway redesign
?As I get more feed back from the other testers I will post it. My first set was in a very pristine Kawai Kg-3 ( 6 ft) The young man who plays is a real talent. I filed the hammers?into a beautiful diamond shape,used the ?action ratio value to determine hammer weight and then prepped and installed. From the first key stroke the hammers extracted ALL the sustain that board had to give. A Fat, gorgeous, balanced sound. I was duly impressed. After alignment & string mating?I wanted??just a bit more high partial clarity so I filed the tops clean with 400 grit sand paper paddle and the balance,clarity and power stepped up another level.? This specific protocol is very effective on all Ronsen made hammers & should be considered S.O.P.
?I'll be crafting a complete voicing guide soon for all the Ronsen products.
? I heard back from the pianist."I didn't know a Kawai could sound like this." He takes lesson from a client teacher in S.F. a 2 hour drive from here. SO he's?both gifted and committed.
?SO Conrad, to answer your inquiry...Yes,Your?newly acquired?Knabe would benefit greatly. I'd suggest the 14 Lb on light maple moldings.
? Regards....The Tone Warrior..grin
? Dale Erwin






On 10/14/08, AlliedPianoCraft <AlliedPianoCraft@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dale!!!!
>
> Now you've gotten me all excited!
>
> I'll have to go and find a piano that needs new hammers.
>
> Al Guecia
>

Dale,

I've got a newly (last week) acquired/gifted 1916 5'2" Knabe  with
well truncated hammers. Would it be a candidate for said hammers?



-- 
Conrad Hoffsommer, RPT
Luther College
Decorah, IA


  • 3.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-15-2008 16:17 
    From Paul T Williams <pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu>

Serge,

I think all he's trying to say is that these hammers from Ray are perhaps 
the best we can get.. and I say perhaps.. Please tell if there is better! 
Can you make better?Certainly the hammers from China aren't nearly as good 
or consistant. Do they work easily with you like Ray? Can they adjust to 
your needs? I've never seen hammers from China as good. 

Excuse me, but I'm a little grumpy right now trying to schedule junk that 
I'm caught in the middle of....  Sorry for the rant..

Paul




"Serge Harel" <serge.harel@videotron.ca> 
Sent by: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
10/15/2008 01:53 PM
Please respond to
Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>


To
"Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
cc

Subject
Re: The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen






Dear Dale
 
Sorry Dale but Ray is just the only one in USA not on the PLANET. 
The majority of the hammer head from China are hand screw press.
And there is a French maker in Paris: Desfougere that use hand presses
And I'm the only one to use the real Alfred Dolge presses
 
I do agree with all you said about the felt and how to press it and Ray do 
good jog for sure.
 
 
Serge Harel
Canada
 
 

 
2008/10/15 <erwinspiano@aol.com>


 David L. David A.
  I thank you for this post. Ray is the only guy on the planet providing 
hammers commercially using the hand screw press. It is this fact, which 
allows for his artisan approach to hammer making., that and 40 years of 
experience and dedication. Truly impressive. He'd be blushing to hear me 
go on. He deserves it.
 As Will Truit said hammers and felt vary, it's the real world, get over 
it. Felt making is absolutely an art form and yet densities in a felt 
sheet can vary from sheet to sheet. The beauty of the Dolge screw press is 
that the operator can feel how much pressure each uniquely made strip of 
felt requires to achieve a narrow spectrum of density in the final 
product. This so important because hydraulic presses can literally squash 
the life out of felt especially when coupled with too much heat. Rays 
hands can feel this pressure. I've been there I've turned the screws. It's 
an acquired skill to be sure. Hey it keeps him in shape.
 
  Dale Erwin 


Yes it is.  And I hope people appreciate Ray and what he is doing 
delivering a custom made hammer and responding to the needs and input from 
the techs.  Not to diminish the commitments of the other suppliers like 
Abel and Renner who deliver a very high quality product but it tends to be 
more of a one style fits all approach.  Ray is really trying to respond to 
the variety of tonal requirements that are part of our daily bread.  There 
isn't anyone else doing this with hammers right now and he should be 
applauded and supported! 
David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
www.davidlovepianos.com 
. I guess that's the beauty of dealing with a custom artisan like Ray 
Negron at Ronsen---he can do it for us.
 
DA
 



-- 

phone 514-750-4522
cel 514-569-4414

Piano Perfecto
5932 rue Viau
Montreal Qc Canada H1T 2Y4

Piano Shop 
17 Ronald Drive
Montreal West, Qc
Canada H4X 1M9


  • 4.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2008 16:49 
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

I wonder too if the problem isn?t so much the type of press but the level of
production that the large suppliers have to maintain and the need for a
quicker way to set glues (read heat) on the hammers which changes the
consistency of the felt.  Like throwing that wool sweater in the dryer, it?s
never really quite the same.   Since wool is a very good natural insulator,
the heat required to quick set the glue must be quite high (I would imagine)
and this can only change the inner tension of the hammer, it seems to me.
Of course, I am not a hammer maker and don?t claim to know the ins and outs
of hammer production nor the methods or compromises that high production
rates would require.  Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to the details and
differences between the high and low production shops and how this might
account for differences in the consistency of the felt in the finished
product.  

 

David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
www.davidlovepianos.com 


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 5.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-17-2008 18:45 
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>

At 15:48 -0700 17/10/08, David Love wrote:

>I wonder too if the problem isn't so much the type of press but the 
>level of production that the large suppliers have to maintain and 
>the need for a quicker way to set glues (read heat) on the hammers 
>which changes the consistency of the felt.

The time available for the glue/cement to dry/cure/set is limited on 
production machinery (since say 1880) only by the number of removable 
caul sets or clamps available to the hammer maker.  A set of hammers 
does not need to occupy the press any longer than it takes to apply 
the pressure, lock the clamp and remove it.  When Dolge wrote, "it is 
estimated that two expert gluers can cover about two hundred and 
forty sets of hammers in ten hours on one machine".  Those were the 
days!!

JD


  • 6.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-17-2008 19:04 
    From "Serge Harel" <serge.harel@videotron.ca>

John

Yes and the horse said later

two expert gluers can cover about two hundred and forty set of hammers in
ten hours on one machine. (hydraulic)


that is exaltly my point


John post me a hydraulic presses hammer #1 that got the same tension that l
could make with the Dolge presses and I will buy the machine...


Serge




2008/10/17 John Delacour <JD@pianomaker.co.uk>

> At 08:53 -0400 17/10/08, Serge Harel wrote:
>
> The better the felt the more sensitive the are that why Ray and me has good
>> result with our old fashion way to make hammer.
>> The hydraulic could not make tension hammer like l do on the picture.
>>
>
> Serge, pressure is pressure, and the only difference I can tell between
> pressure applied by screws and pressure applied by hydraulic or pneumatic
> rams is that with these the pressure can be accurately measured and
> differentially applied.  As Dolge says, speaking of machines younger than
> yours:
>
>  "...with the present machines, the operator has no control over the
> pressure exercised; he does not know but has to guess whether the felt is
> pressed down sufficiently or not.  The rigidness of the covering machine
> does not permit of any variation in pressure to be used, so necessary on
> account of the uneven texture of the felt..."
>
> There you have it from the horse's mouth.
>
> JD
>



-- 

phone 514-750-4522
cel 514-569-4414

Piano Perfecto
5932 rue Viau
Montreal Qc Canada H1T 2Y4

Piano Shop
17 Ronald Drive
Montreal West, Qc
Canada H4X 1M9


  • 7.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2008 11:52 
    From "David C. Stanwood" <stanwood@tiac.net>

Hi Dale

Didn't catch the word "pre" when you mentioned pressing..., Just 
wanted to make a positive point to the readership about coldish 
pressed hammers which is that the tensioning of the felt is not lost 
as in a hot pressed hammers.   This tensioning of the fibers gives a 
kind of resiliency to the felt which makes it very bouncy like a 
superball... remember them?  The kind of heat that most production 
hammers are made with erases this magical quality.  I believe that 
the special kind of tensioning found in lukewarm pressed hammers 
contributes greatly to their beauty.

The starting point for a heat level that starts to degrade the cold 
pressed quality is a little "fuzzy".   The quickest way to check is 
to steam a spare hammer and if it expands at all, then it technically 
has density made by hot pressing which greatly reduces resilience... 
The most resilient felt builds density by intertangling (felting) of 
the fibers.  It's a little confusing because there are two ways of 
building density in a hammer, one by making the felt dense enough 
before stretching around the molding then the stretching itself 
builds density....

The buffing wheel felts are not hot pressed just hard by felting with 
very high pressure... the fibers just ratchet together to a very high 
density... amazing really...

The amount of natural felting that occurs during felt production is 
very critical.  Too much and the felt will tear, too little and the 
tensioning slips and the hammer is too soft...  The art of producing 
a great cold pressed hammer is really linked with the art of making 
great hammer felt.

My hat is always gratefully off to Ray Negron and Jack Brand (and his 
highly skilled feltmakers in Wurzen Germany).  It would be a very 
different world without you both!

Best TY,

David

"Take a sheep to lunch"


>David
>I agree. A loss of resilience occurs in Pre pressing, which is the practice
>of pushing the felt into the caul before the underfelt is laid in,to crease
>the felt in the middle. The purpose of this is so it is easier/possible to
>center the underfelt all along the length of the  felt strip in the 
>final pressing.
>Pre-pressing or pres-stretching  is more often over done & it is this process
>where the felts ability to be tenisoned is reduced. I believe every 
>maker  pre-presses
>to one degree or another but pre pressing should be kept to a minimum, just
>enough ot crease the felt slightly so the underfelt can stay centered with the
>final press happens This is the the case with Ronsen hammers.
>Technically there are no Cold pressed hammers. There is always so heat present
>to cure the glue.  Something like 130 degrees when the felt is 
>pressed in & then
>it's turned off. Ronsen hammers stay in the press 3 hours after the 
>heat is turned
>off.  Other hammer makers whiz them in & out of the press using far 
>more heat to
>cure the glue faster. Of course this aids production but the hamners 
>are losing resilince, >tension & compression under this protcol.  I 
>think this is the way buffing wheels are made.
>LOL
>Dale


>>Dale,

>>I've always felt (no pun intended) that tension in a cold pressed 
>>hammer develops
>>resiliency and density at the same time and that this tension is 
>>always diminished
>>by hot pressing. Imaging bouncing something off a stretched nylon 
>>rope... (nylon
>>being very stretchy). If the rope isn't stretched tightly you can't 
>>bounce off it
>>very well...?

>>David S

>>>Dale Wrote: <snip> Pressure is pressure but pre pressing removes
>>>resilience as does too much heat. <snip>


  • 8.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2008 14:50 
    From erwinspiano@aol.com

? Fellow tone warrior. 
? Good to have another techno- splaination by some one that loves wool & understands the nature of both ,in felt making,what an art, and hammer making, also an art. The more we learn the more we can apply in our thinking about hammers &?voicing.
?? Andre referred to the hammer as a shock absorber but A hammer is technically a non - linear felt spring. There's the bait now I'll see if there are any bites. grin
? Excellent post David S.
? Dale Erwin
?Take a sheep to lunch indeed. I was actually thinking about getting a couple black ones and asking Jack to?produce ?my own black hammers....."Erwins Black velvets"? built especially for the dark tone. 
??
?


Hi Dale?
?
Didn't catch the word "pre" when you mentioned pressing..., Just wanted to make a positive point to the readership about coldish pressed hammers which is that the tensioning of the felt is not lost as in a hot pressed hammers. This tensioning of the fibers gives a kind of resiliency to the felt which makes it very bouncy like a superball... remember them? The kind of heat that most production hammers are made with erases this magical quality. I believe that the special kind of tensioning found in lukewarm pressed hammers contributes greatly to their beauty.?
?
The starting point for a heat level that starts to degrade the cold pressed quality is a little "fuzzy". The quickest way to check is to steam a spare hammer and if it expands at all, then it technically has density made by hot pressing which greatly reduces resilience... The most resilient felt builds density by intertangling (felting) of the fibers. It's a little confusing because there are two ways of building density in a hammer, one by making the felt dense enough before stretching around the molding then the stretching itself builds density....?
?
The buffing wheel felts are not hot pressed just hard by felting with very high pressure... the fibers just ratchet together to a very high density... amazing really...?
?
The amount of natural felting that occurs during felt production is very critical. Too much and the felt will tear, too little and the tensioning slips and the hammer is too soft... The art of producing a great cold pressed hammer is really linked with the art of making great hammer felt.?
?
My hat is always gratefully off to Ray Negron and Jack Brand (and his highly skilled feltmakers in Wurzen Germany). It would be a very different world without you both!?
?
Best TY,?
?
David?
?
"Take a sheep to lunch"?
?
>David?
>I agree. A loss of resilience occurs in Pre pressing, which is the practice?
>of pushing the felt into the caul before the underfelt is laid in,to crease?
>the felt in the middle. The purpose of this is so it is easier/possible to?
>center the underfelt all along the length of the felt strip in the >final pressing.?
>Pre-pressing or pres-stretching is more often over done & it is this process?
>where the felts ability to be tenisoned is reduced. I believe every >maker pre-presses?
>to one degree or another but pre pressing should be kept to a minimum, just?
>enough ot crease the felt slightly so the underfelt can stay centered with the?
>final press happens This is the the case with Ronsen hammers.?
>Technically there are no Cold pressed hammers. There is always so heat present?
>to cure the glue. Something like 130 degrees when the felt is >pressed in & then?
>it's turned off. Ronsen hammers stay in the press 3 hours after the >heat is turned?
>off. Other hammer makers whiz them in & out of the press using far >more heat to?
>cure the glue faster. Of course this aids production but the hamners >are losing resilince, >tension & compression under this protcol. I >think this is the way buffing wheels are made.?
>LOL?
>Dale?
?
>>Dale,?
?
>>I've always felt (no pun intended) that tension in a cold pressed >>hammer develops?
>>resiliency and density at the same time and that this tension is >>always diminished?
>>by hot pressing. Imaging bouncing something off a stretched nylon >>rope... (nylon?
>>being very stretchy). If the rope isn't stretched tightly you can't >>bounce off it?
>>very well...??
?
>>David S?
?
>>>Dale Wrote: <snip> Pressure is pressure but pre pressing removes?
>>>resilience as does too much heat. <snip>?


  • 9.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-18-2008 15:53 
    From St?phane Collin <collin.s@mobistar.be>

I?ll go for nothing less than lamb of god, for the mystical tone.

 

Anon.


 Take a sheep to lunch indeed. I was actually thinking about getting a
couple black ones and asking Jack to produce  my own black
hammers....."Erwins Black velvets"  built especially for the dark tone.


  • 10.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2008 16:55 
    From erwinspiano@aol.com

Right on Stephane.
 Dale







I’ll go for nothing less than lamb of god, for the mystical tone.

 

Anon.


 Take a sheep to lunch indeed. I was actually thinking about getting a couple black ones and asking Jack to produce  my own black hammers....."Erwins Black velvets"  built especially for the dark tone.


  • 11.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-18-2008 17:14 
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

St?phane Collin wrote:
> I?ll go for nothing less than lamb of god, for the mystical tone.
> 
> Anon.

Funny though, they're expected to SOUND like LIONS...
Ron N


  • 12.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-19-2008 02:57 
    From St?phane Collin <collin.s@mobistar.be>

That is how they will end up sounding after being thoroughly pound.
(This technique is called the prophetical voicing).


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 13.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-18-2008 16:12 
    From "paul bruesch" <paul@bruesch.net>

Maybe you could have just the hammers for the sharps be black... <G>

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 3:50 PM, <erwinspiano@aol.com> wrote:

>
>   Fellow tone warrior.
>   Good to have another techno- splaination by some one that loves wool &
> understands the nature of both ,in felt making,what an art, and hammer
> making, also an art. The more we learn the more we can apply in our thinking
> about hammers & voicing.
>    Andre referred to the hammer as a shock absorber but A hammer is
> technically a non - linear felt spring. There's the bait now I'll see if
> there are any bites. grin
>   Excellent post David S.
>   Dale Erwin
>  Take a sheep to lunch indeed. I was actually thinking about getting a
> couple black ones and asking Jack to produce  my own black
> hammers....."Erwins Black velvets"  built especially for the dark tone.
>
>
>
> Hi Dale
>
> Didn't catch the word "pre" when you mentioned pressing..., Just wanted to
> make a positive point to the readership about coldish pressed hammers which
> is that the tensioning of the felt is not lost as in a hot pressed hammers.
> This tensioning of the fibers gives a kind of resiliency to the felt which
> makes it very bouncy like a superball... remember them? The kind of heat
> that most production hammers are made with erases this magical quality. I
> believe that the special kind of tensioning found in lukewarm pressed
> hammers contributes greatly to their beauty.
>
> The starting point for a heat level that starts to degrade the cold pressed
> quality is a little "fuzzy". The quickest way to check is to steam a spare
> hammer and if it expands at all, then it technically has density made by hot
> pressing which greatly reduces resilience... The most resilient felt builds
> density by intertangling (felting) of the fibers. It's a little confusing
> because there are two ways of building density in a hammer, one by making
> the felt dense enough before stretching around the molding then the
> stretching itself builds density....
>
> The buffing wheel felts are not hot pressed just hard by felting with very
> high pressure... the fibers just ratchet together to a very high density...
> amazing really...
>
> The amount of natural felting that occurs during felt production is very
> critical. Too much and the felt will tear, too little and the tensioning
> slips and the hammer is too soft... The art of producing a great cold
> pressed hammer is really linked with the art of making great hammer felt.
>
> My hat is always gratefully off to Ray Negron and Jack Brand (and his
> highly skilled feltmakers in Wurzen Germany). It would be a very different
> world without you both!
>
> Best TY,
>
> David
>
> "Take a sheep to lunch"
>
> >David
> >I agree. A loss of resilience occurs in Pre pressing, which is the
> practice
> >of pushing the felt into the caul before the underfelt is laid in,to
> crease
> >the felt in the middle. The purpose of this is so it is easier/possible
> to
> >center the underfelt all along the length of the felt strip in the >final
> pressing.
> >Pre-pressing or pres-stretching is more often over done & it is this
> process
> >where the felts ability to be tenisoned is reduced. I believe every >maker
> pre-presses
> >to one degree or another but pre pressing should be kept to a minimum,
> just
> >enough ot crease the felt slightly so the underfelt can stay centered with
> the
> >final press happens This is the the case with Ronsen hammers.
> >Technically there are no Cold pressed hammers. There is always so heat
> present
> >to cure the glue. Something like 130 degrees when the felt is >pressed in
> & then
> >it's turned off. Ronsen hammers stay in the press 3 hours after the >heat
> is turned
> >off. Other hammer makers whiz them in & out of the press using far >more
> heat to
> >cure the glue faster. Of course this aids production but the hamners >are
> losing resilince, >tension & compression under this protcol. I >think this
> is the way buffing wheels are made.
> >LOL
> >Dale
>
> >>Dale,
>
> >>I've always felt (no pun intended) that tension in a cold pressed
> >>hammer develops
> >>resiliency and density at the same time and that this tension is >>always
> diminished
> >>by hot pressing. Imaging bouncing something off a stretched nylon
> >>rope... (nylon
> >>being very stretchy). If the rope isn't stretched tightly you can't
> >>bounce off it
> >>very well...?
>
> >>David S
>
> >>>Dale Wrote: <snip> Pressure is pressure but pre pressing removes
> >>>resilience as does too much heat. <snip>
>
> ------------------------------
> McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race while
> you browse - Download Now!<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211139166x1200680084/aol?redir=http://toolbar.aol.com/elections/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000002>
>


  • 14.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Posted 10-19-2008 07:29 
    From "Avery Todd" <ptuner1@gmail.com>

Hey Dale, maybe those black hammers could be sold to Baldwin to go with
their Stealth Action! LOL

Avery Todd
On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 3:50 PM, <erwinspiano@aol.com> wrote:

>
>   Fellow tone warrior.
>   Good to have another techno- splaination by some one that loves wool &
> understands the nature of both ,in felt making,what an art, and hammer
> making, also an art. The more we learn the more we can apply in our thinking
> about hammers & voicing.
>    Andre referred to the hammer as a shock absorber but A hammer is
> technically a non - linear felt spring. There's the bait now I'll see if
> there are any bites. grin
>   Excellent post David S.
>   Dale Erwin
>  Take a sheep to lunch indeed. I was actually thinking about getting a
> couple black ones and asking Jack to produce  my own black
> hammers....."Erwins Black velvets"  built especially for the dark tone.
>
>
>
> Hi Dale
>
> Didn't catch the word "pre" when you mentioned pressing..., Just wanted to
> make a positive point to the readership about coldish pressed hammers which
> is that the tensioning of the felt is not lost as in a hot pressed hammers.
> This tensioning of the fibers gives a kind of resiliency to the felt which
> makes it very bouncy like a superball... remember them? The kind of heat
> that most production hammers are made with erases this magical quality. I
> believe that the special kind of tensioning found in lukewarm pressed
> hammers contributes greatly to their beauty.
>
> The starting point for a heat level that starts to degrade the cold pressed
> quality is a little "fuzzy". The quickest way to check is to steam a spare
> hammer and if it expands at all, then it technically has density made by hot
> pressing which greatly reduces resilience... The most resilient felt builds
> density by intertangling (felting) of the fibers. It's a little confusing
> because there are two ways of building density in a hammer, one by making
> the felt dense enough before stretching around the molding then the
> stretching itself builds density....
>
> The buffing wheel felts are not hot pressed just hard by felting with very
> high pressure... the fibers just ratchet together to a very high density...
> amazing really...
>
> The amount of natural felting that occurs during felt production is very
> critical. Too much and the felt will tear, too little and the tensioning
> slips and the hammer is too soft... The art of producing a great cold
> pressed hammer is really linked with the art of making great hammer felt.
>
> My hat is always gratefully off to Ray Negron and Jack Brand (and his
> highly skilled feltmakers in Wurzen Germany). It would be a very different
> world without you both!
>
> Best TY,
>
> David
>
> "Take a sheep to lunch"
>
> >David
> >I agree. A loss of resilience occurs in Pre pressing, which is the
> practice
> >of pushing the felt into the caul before the underfelt is laid in,to
> crease
> >the felt in the middle. The purpose of this is so it is easier/possible
> to
> >center the underfelt all along the length of the felt strip in the >final
> pressing.
> >Pre-pressing or pres-stretching is more often over done & it is this
> process
> >where the felts ability to be tenisoned is reduced. I believe every >maker
> pre-presses
> >to one degree or another but pre pressing should be kept to a minimum,
> just
> >enough ot crease the felt slightly so the underfelt can stay centered with
> the
> >final press happens This is the the case with Ronsen hammers.
> >Technically there are no Cold pressed hammers. There is always so heat
> present
> >to cure the glue. Something like 130 degrees when the felt is >pressed in
> & then
> >it's turned off. Ronsen hammers stay in the press 3 hours after the >heat
> is turned
> >off. Other hammer makers whiz them in & out of the press using far >more
> heat to
> >cure the glue faster. Of course this aids production but the hamners >are
> losing resilince, >tension & compression under this protcol. I >think this
> is the way buffing wheels are made.
> >LOL
> >Dale
>
> >>Dale,
>
> >>I've always felt (no pun intended) that tension in a cold pressed
> >>hammer develops
> >>resiliency and density at the same time and that this tension is >>always
> diminished
> >>by hot pressing. Imaging bouncing something off a stretched nylon
> >>rope... (nylon
> >>being very stretchy). If the rope isn't stretched tightly you can't
> >>bounce off it
> >>very well...?
>
> >>David S
>
> >>>Dale Wrote: <snip> Pressure is pressure but pre pressing removes
> >>>resilience as does too much heat. <snip>
>
> ------------------------------
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>


  • 15.  The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2008 22:04 
    From erwinspiano@aol.com

? Avery
? You are always on target pal. We need more slick marketing right?...nahhh
? Dale







Hey Dale, maybe those black hammers could be sold to Baldwin to go with their Stealth Action! LOL 


Avery Todd


On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 3:50 PM, <erwinspiano@aol.com> wrote:


? Fellow tone warrior. 
? Good to have another techno- splaination by some one that loves wool & understands the nature of both ,in felt making,what an art, and hammer making, also an art. The more we learn the more we can apply in our thinking about hammers &?voicing.
?? Andre referred to the hammer as a shock absorber but A hammer is technically a non - linear felt spring. There's the bait now I'll see if there are any bites. grin
? Excellent post David S.
? Dale Erwin
?Take a sheep to lunch indeed. I was actually thinking about getting a couple black ones and asking Jack to?produce ?my own black hammers....."Erwins Black velvets"? built especially for the dark tone. 




??
?


Hi Dale?
?
Didn't catch the word "pre" when you mentioned pressing..., Just wanted to make a positive point to the readership about coldish pressed hammers which is that the tensioning of the felt is not lost as in a hot pressed hammers. This tensioning of the fibers gives a kind of resiliency to the felt which makes it very bouncy like a superball... remember them? The kind of heat that most production hammers are made with erases this magical quality. I believe that the special kind of tensioning found in lukewarm pressed hammers contributes greatly to their beauty.?
?
The starting point for a heat level that starts to degrade the cold pressed quality is a little "fuzzy". The quickest way to check is to steam a spare hammer and if it expands at all, then it technically has density made by hot pressing which greatly reduces resilience... The most resilient felt builds density by intertangling (felting) of the fibers. It's a little confusing because there are two ways of building density in a hammer, one by making the felt dense enough before stretching around the molding then the stretching itself builds density....?
?
The buffing wheel felts are not hot pressed just hard by felting with very high pressure... the fibers just ratchet together to a very high density... amazing really...?
?
The amount of natural felting that occurs during felt production is very critical. Too much and the felt will tear, too little and the tensioning slips and the hammer is too soft... The art of producing a great cold pressed hammer is really linked with the art of making great hammer felt.?
?
My hat is always gratefully off to Ray Negron and Jack Brand (and his highly skilled feltmakers in Wurzen Germany). It would be a very different world without you both!?
?
Best TY,?
?
David?
?
"Take a sheep to lunch"?
?
>David?
>I agree. A loss of resilience occurs in Pre pressing, which is the practice?
>of pushing the felt into the caul before the underfelt is laid in,to crease?
>the felt in the middle. The purpose of this is so it is easier/possible to?
>center the underfelt all along the length of the felt strip in the >final pressing.?
>Pre-pressing or pres-stretching is more often over done & it is this process?
>where the felts ability to be tenisoned is reduced. I believe every >maker pre-presses?
>to one degree or another but pre pressing should be kept to a minimum, just?
>enough ot crease the felt slightly so the underfelt can stay centered with the?
>final press happens This is the the case with Ronsen hammers.?
>Technically there are no Cold pressed hammers. There is always so heat present?
>to cure the glue. Something like 130 degrees when the felt is >pressed in & then?
>it's turned off. Ronsen hammers stay in the press 3 hours after the >heat is turned?
>off. Other hammer makers whiz them in & out of the press using far >more heat to?
>cure the glue faster. Of course this aids production but the hamners >are losing resilince, >tension & compression under this protcol. I >think this is the way buffing wheels are made.?
>LOL?
>Dale?
?
>>Dale,?
?
>>I've always felt (no pun intended) that tension in a cold pressed >>hammer develops?
>>resiliency and density at the same time and that this tension is >>always diminished?
>>by hot pressing. Imaging bouncing something off a stretched nylon >>rope... (nylon?
>>being very stretchy). If the rope isn't stretched tightly you can't >>bounce off it?
>>very well...??
?
>>David S?
?
>>>Dale Wrote: <snip> Pressure is pressure but pre pressing removes?
>>>resilience as does too much heat. <snip>?









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