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entry to Behning grand

  • 1.  entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 17:32
    I'm hoping someone will help me with a quite lovely 1914 Behning grand, 6 feet or so.

    It has a pretty case. It has a good sound. It also has a click on D6 which sounds like a loose hammer head.

    Okay ... took off the keyslip easily enough. Three screws up into it. Then I went to find key block screws. Oh dear. Very wide sweeping side supports of the legs completely cover the area where one would expect a keyblock screw to be, on both sides. The key blocks are totally firmly installed. There are no visible fasteners. The spring for the soft pedal return is on the left instead of the right. There is a screw in the side of the left key block to set the amount of shift, which at the moment doesn't matter because there's no access to the screw head. The key cover is firmly attached to the key blocks at each end and cannot be removed by itself. It seems obvious that once the key blocks are no longer screwed down, the key cover and both blocks will come out as one piece.

    Using a strong flashlight and shifting the action as much as possible, I found that I could push down a metal slat an inch or so back from the front of the keys, which acts as a guide for the action so it shifts evenly (both sides). However, pushing it down in no way allowed me to loosen either key block. There are no fasteners to be seen diagonally, pulling C88 and A0 up a little bit to access them. Remembering one real puzzle box, I looked at the narrow sides of the key cover, where another brand had five or six screws holding it in. Nothing. Looking under the piano at the leg areas we saw normal wedging, but nothing that might let us in. The hammers and keytops have both been replaced. Obviously there is SOME way to get in there!

    Are we really required to take off each leg in turn to get the key block screws out? I didn't have the "jack in the box" with me when I tuned. We imagined someone with the secret coming in, sitting down, reaching for something or other, and five seconds later getting into the piano and laughing at us. But someone like this was nowhere to be seen.





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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 2.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 17:55
    Did you look for an access hole on the distal side of the legs? Is it possible they were switched?

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 18:34

    The owner got down and looked hard at the legs and their wedges. I felt around them, the bottom of the smooth sweeps, which came all the way forward to just behind the keyslip area, and both sides, I found nothing. We even tried removing a screw up into the right cheek. It came out like it had never been out before, and did not affect the key blocks in any way.

    This would have made a good quiz, except that I'd want to know the answer before posing the question.

    I'll bring a camera next time.






  • 4.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 18:09
    Sometimes the fallboard can be attached to the keyblocks using a pivotal arm that fastens to the side, or edge, of the fallboard. Usually held in with two screws. Hidden when the fallboard is closed but easily accessible when open. However, not an intuitive place to look. The screws that hold in the keyblocks will usually be revealed at the back of the blocks once the fallboard is out of the way.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 5.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 18:27

    It looked like the sides of fallboard had no fasteners, but next time I get there I'll look harder.






  • 6.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-26-2021 20:00

    By any chance are there rubber buttons visible on the key blocks that may be covering a countersunk screw ? 
    www.snowpianos.com



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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-26-2021 21:20
    I'm with Martin on this one.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 21:26

    Alas, if only ....






  • 9.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Member
    Posted 07-27-2021 08:40
    Had a piano once where the trim between the stretcher and the plate had to be removed and the cheek block screws were accessed from above between the stretcher and the plate.





  • 10.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2021 13:58

    Wow, that's a first!

    Thanks, one more thing to try.






  • 11.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2021 21:26

    There were small rubber buttons, but the holes under them were only 1/8th" wide, without any fasteners inside.






  • 12.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-27-2021 17:35
    Check for a horizontal screw on the inside of the cheek blocks just below the keys.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2021 19:08

    Hi, Randy

    Thanks, but I did. I expected to find a diagonal screw into the block at each end. Nothing there.







  • 14.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2021 19:57

    I don't know if this has been recommended yet. One time I had a grand where the

    stretcher had to come off, with screws facing front. It took me quite a while to

    figure it out. It might have been that brand!

    Ruth

     

    Ruth Zeiner

    215-534-3834 cell

    ruth@alliedpiano.com

     






  • 15.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-28-2021 12:09
    Seems unlikely, but when pressing key 1 or 88 does it reveal a screw that was hidden by the key?

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 12:32

    Randy, unfortunately not. No fastener of any kind can be seen on the inner edge of the key blocks except the stop screw for the shift pedal, on the left block. And it can't be reached without lifting up A0. Which can't be done till the fallboard has been taken out. And it seems like it has to be taken out while attached to the key blocks.

    I may just take the jack in the box up to my customer's house, remove a leg and see what can be seen. It still seems a ridiculous obstacle to have been put in the way.

    I'll check to see if there is some piece which should come off the stretcher area to reveal a screw head, but it seems unlikely. But then, the whole situation seems unlikely.

    Once we figure it out, I'll take some photos and let you know.






  • 17.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 14:54

    Susan, I maybe wasn't clear when I posted about removing the stretcher. I had to remove it

    to gain access for removal of the key cover and cheek blocks. Sorry if it was confusing. There

    were long screws going through the plate and stretcher, facing forward. Once the stretcher

    was off, the other parts pulled out easily. It was in the far distant past so I don't recall the

    full sequence, just how odd it was to figure out.

    Ruth

     

    Ruth Zeiner

    215-534-3834 cell

    ruth@alliedpiano.com

     






  • 18.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 16:31

    Ah, I see. Thanks Ruth. I'll check for that.






  • 19.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Member
    Posted 07-28-2021 12:44
    Here is a thought. It may be that there is a blind screw in the keybed that has the head sticking out. The head fits into a keyhole type slot in the bottom of the block so yoy place the block into the cavity and push it forward or back to lock it in. I just had a small grand piano that had this setup with the music desk attached to a cover over the tuning pins. I have run into these "secret" screws in some older Story and Clarks and in the small Kimball grands. If the piano has been refinished the blocks could be stuck in place. Take a rubber mallet and tap the blocks forward or backward


    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 13:34

    I met this arrangement in a spinet, once.






  • 21.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-28-2021 13:26
    James Kelly's post sounds very interesting. If you could slip a thin blade under the cheek block to see what you bump into that could be informative .The the only tool I have that might work is bladed spilt mute. See photo. Maybe the cheeks are held in a spring loaded ball and socket device and will just pop out under a bit of force.

    If you do not use a spilt blade mute, it is worth having one just for the blade. 
    thin blade


    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 13:37

    When I go back, I definitely want to get into the thing. I'll bring a camera and the jack in the box and I have a thin steel. And I'll bring a better flashlight.






  • 23.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 13:51
    Since almost no one sets points on their cars anymore find a feeler gauge set.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-28-2021 15:01
    Larry...I have always had a feeler gauge set as part of my 'bag' primarily to check for rib/soundboard separations, because it's such a lightweight item it has survived multiple  Marie Kondo  style  tool bag minimalist purges!
    Re the Behning...... So without getting too much into the weeds  tho I think we're there already but it's a teasing thread, the Behning Co. was taken over in 1932 by Kohler  and Campbell who continued to manufacture the Behning line for just 24 years until 1956, because at one time  Behning manufactured a line of Player pianos "The Wendland" I'm wondering if this tricky dicky keyblock  is a  cabinetry holdover from that dept.
    www.snowpianos.com

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 16:30

    I've got the remnants of one somewhere. The short steel I use to get glue under veneer is from it.






  • 26.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-28-2021 14:32
    Just a thought.  with the key slip out. Look along the front of the key bed and see if there are any marks.  Perhaps there are screws literally from the key bed into the piano. I have seen stamped screw markers in other places on a piano, usually uprights.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
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  • 27.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 16:03
    Well, if nothing else, this is a fine compendium of methods that end-blocks are secured. The stretcher gambit is looking promising, one clue might be to see if the stretcher extends below the hammer line and needs to be removed to pull the action anyway, I ran into that on the "European" Kimball models from about 40 years ago; nothing tricky about the fallboard and end-blocks on those however.

    Endoscopes are widely available now that plug right into one's phone, this would be a good chance to use one to peek in behind the fallboard. (kind of silly to call these things "phones" anymore.)

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 28.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2021 16:36

    My phone is dumb, but at least no one has hacked into my bank account and credit cards from it. I put a Chinese wall (if anyone remembers what that is) between financial transactions and mobile devices.






  • 29.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 01:41
    I once went to service an OLD grand piano, and ran into the same kind of problem. Finally figured out that the screws through the legs that were under the blocks held the blocks in! The legs were firmly mounted to the piano by their other screws, so removing the two into the blocks did not make the piano unstable.





  • 30.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 02:04

    Ah, if only the legs had visible screws at all. Wedged in, like that have lock plates. But that is very interesting.?? I never knew there were so many ways to fool piano technicians.






  • 31.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 12:07
    It's probably a function of making things proprietary, therefore the only ones "qualified" to service the instrument would be either factory or dealer tuners. 

    One of the reasons DEC computers (Digital Equipment Corp.) no longer exist, although they made very good stuff.  

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 12:24

    A very good point. Perhaps that is why this quite good piano is such a puzzle box.






  • 33.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 13:05
    Hmmm. A puzzle box. Have you tried holding down the three secret notes while pressing on the middle pedal and twisting the right leg 45°? (Don't laugh. Yamaha designed the DKV MK4's with special 3, 4 & 5 key press codes to run some of the calibration routines.) If you get the right combination sometimes the cheek block will just magically pop open revealing a bountiful treasure. Or, depending on country of origin, maybe it will just grant you three wishes.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 34.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 14:33

    <grin> The first wish would be to be able to open the thing!






  • 35.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Posted 07-29-2021 17:57
    Hi Susan,
    I've seen a couple pianos that required removing the stretcher to access cheek block screws running
    down thru the top of the blocks into the keybed.
    Fenton

    ------------------------------
    Fenton Murray, RPT

    Fenton
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: entry to Behning grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2021 19:20

    I'm definitely going to try the stretcher before I take off a leg!

    Thanks, everyone. I'll let you know what happens.