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thin shanks

  • 1.  thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-17-2021 14:02

    I've taken over the tunings at a university. Today I did some voicing on a D in a recital hall. The main problem is a lack of projection from most of the piano except the top octave. The first thing I noticed was that all the shanks, from 1 to 88, are the thin type usually only found in the top trebles. I'm adding some B72 on all the hammers and that is helping some, but would having thin shanks have an effect on projection?



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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
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  • 2.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-17-2021 16:29
    Wrong shanks overall.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-17-2021 16:47
    John

    I know they are the wrong shanks. But that's not what I was asking.  I want to know what effect they have on voicing and projecting?





  • 4.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-17-2021 18:40
    Too flexible in the bass and tenor. But if that's what you have to go with.. they can't be too picky.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-17-2021 18:41
    Wrong attempt at keeping the SW down.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-17-2021 18:56
    John

    I appreciate your feed back, but you're not answering the question. 
    If the thin shanks are the reason for poor projection, then I might be able to get the school to spend the money to put on new shanks. But before I make that proposal, I need to know if that will, indeed, solve the problem. 

    Does anyone have any experience with this?

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-17-2021 20:40
    Projection has been a special topic for me after i experienced a rebuild that in every regard was beautiful in tone at the keyboard, but lacked any projection which was easy to hear when stepping away from the piano. In my case the main culprit was excessive downbearing. I brought the piano back to my shop removed all the strings and restrung using my half a degree downbearing method, which is similar to the Baldwin accujust method. Afterwards it became a strong workhorse piano. In my case, i was working with a new board, so i can imagine that an older board can more easily be overwhelmed by excess downbearing.

    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key"
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Lenoir City, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-17-2021 21:11
    Chris

    That's an interesting story, but excessive downbearing is not what this piano has. It has thin shanks.


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-17-2021 23:10
    Have you measured SW samples across the keyboard? Rather than juicing up the hammers, add shank clips to raise the SW. This will affect the Touch Weight which may be a concern. Are they complaining about the tone?  Heavier hammers have better projection than light hammers. However, if they hear no problem, then there is no problem.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-17-2021 23:20
    replace one or two with normal shanks, keeping everything else the same, and see if it is the shanks or not.

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    Ed Foote RPT
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  • 11.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-18-2021 07:37
    If a clip improves the tone a little; thicker, heavier shanks will improve it more. Who put those shanks on? Speak to them to find out what was their intention and what they hoped to accomplish.

    Don't make the mistake of conditioning the felt when it just might be a weight issue.
    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2021 09:40
    Jon

    You asked who installed the shanks. According to the piano professor, about 10 years ago the school bought the piano from Steinway, and they sent down a technician who spent 3 days "prepping" the piano. Six months later the professor complained about the touch, and asked the local tech to see what the problem was. The Steinway tech had added jiffy leads to the bottom of the keys. I susupect the tech also replaced all the shanks at that time.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-18-2021 09:53
    It seems what the piano needs is an Action Geometry Analysis. Weight and Balance and all that kind of stuff. Basically an application of a Stanwood Protocol or one of the few other approaches.  I would say that replacement s/f/h's are in order and install these on a more suitable piano, not a performance instrument. Spring for WNG while you're at it.

    I have a D in my shop as a spec piano. I'll be changing the top action for WNG flat rails, I have a new Kluge keyset and frame too. Tubular action rails are the pits.
    I also have a spec S&S A with the original top action frame with WNG s/f & reps.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2021 11:13

    HI-

    Unless I missed something, it doesn't add up that a technician sent by Steinway would install non-Steinway parts or modify Steinway shanks in any way.  It definitely sounds like something is wrong with the geometry or the overall ratio, or both.  I've never seen a factory Steinway that needed additional leads to properly fix anything, but no other comment on that. From my experience, there are likely a combination of factors contributing to the situation, that thicker shanks alone will not fix.  That's all. 

    best
    Dennis Johnson
    St. Olaf College






  • 15.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-18-2021 11:19
    Two quick questions:  Is this thread about the pianos volume instead of projection? As those are two different things. And is this a question of a mismatched impedance? If so, how would this problem be solved from an impedance point of view?

    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key"
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Lenoir City, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2021 12:05
    Chris

    When i first tuned the piano in August I noticed that, to me, there just wasn't much oomph, for the lack of a better word. I call it projection. It's a relatively small recital hall, (about 250), on a 30' x 25' stage. The sound is nice and the professor didn't complain until I mentioned that, to me, the piano lacked power. At the time she didn't hear it, but later in the semester she wanted me to do what I thought would improve the tone. So the first thing I did was add B72. That's when I saw the thin shanks. That's where we're at. After adding the B72 and voicing, the piano did have more projection. I'm happy with that, but I'm just wondering if the thin shanks have anything to do with the lack of oomph.

    I do like Jon's suggestion of adding clips to some of the shanks and see if that improves the tone even more. Unfortuntely, I don't have any spare shanks lying around because I don't have a shop anymore.  Remember, I'm retired and all I have is the tools in my case.

    I just want to leave my options open.  

    Thanks for all the advice. 

    Merry Christmas

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-18-2021 12:31
    Place the clips at the hammer molding in the bass and part-way thru the tenor. Pick an 'ending shank' in the treble and place a clip about half-way on the shank. Create a tapered clip line from the tenor to treble. Weigh a clip (without the handles), measure action ratio ala Dale's tool. This will tell you how much will be added to the BW.  Hopefully the tapered shanks will support the clip. You might have to include a felt or suede wrap under the clip.

    If you're lucky, this might be sufficient.

    Where were the Jiffy Leads? Under the front or back? Are they still there?
    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 12-18-2021 14:22
    Ok, the oomph word did it for me. Try what i call a three strike test. Strike a note 3 times (first play it pp, next mf then FFF) if there is no FFF then the core of the hammer is too soft. If that is the case, i would pull the action on its side and apply B-72 on the side of the hammers focusing at the tip of the moulding and avoiding the top of the hammer. Then after it dries, see if that starts to address the lack of oomph.

    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key"
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Lenoir City, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2021 14:57
    Chris

    That’s where I applied the B72. As I said, the tone improved significantly. The professor is meeting me on Monday. I think she’ll notice a difference. I’ll mention the shanks and see what she says.


    Sent from my iPhone




  • 20.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2021 17:16
    If memory serves, Abel’s Steinway shanks are all the same (no difference bass to treble) and are all more or less oval in cross section. They are not as thin as the extra thin shanks sometimes used in the top octaves, but certainly thinner side to side than NY Steinway shanks, which are round in cross section and tapered from flange to hammer.

    Since the oval is vertically aligned, there is no significant reduction stiffness with respect to the hammer blow. There could be a wee bit more of a tendency to wobble side to side, but that shouldn’t be a problem if travel and square are reasonably good.

    There will be a small (next to insignificant) lowering of strike weight, well below 0.5 grams. I doubt very much the shanks were chosen for that reason, unless one or more of the technicians involved was pretty clueless - which seems likely considering the story of the three day prep after which jiffy leads were found attached to the bottoms of the keys. Would someone “Steinway sent down” replace Steinway shanks with Abels?

    The whole story doesn’t add up, and I would be skeptical about accepting any of it. Instead, start by analyzing just exactly what you have:

    Is this a new piano? How old, if not? If “purchased from Steinway,” and it isn’t new, that means it came from their rebuilding shop, where Steinway hammers and shanks would have been used. Are they Steinway hammers? (Since they aren’t Steinway shanks, that would lead one to suspect a different hammer - and how could that be if they “bought it from Steinway?”) What is their mass (take sample weights to extrapolate a curve)? What is the touch weight like now? What happens if you remove some of the jiffy leads?

    Basically, you would be best to start from scratch and set up the action - now that you have opened the can of worms and convinced the piano prof that there is something wrong. Piling bandaids on top of what is there is a recipe for disaster. It sounds like there were complaints from the beginning, and you are following at least two people who weren’t very competent. Or you are being fed a very inaccurate story about the provenance of the piano.

    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler




  • 21.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2021 14:41

    Wim

    i doubt that thin shanks are contributing to lack of power. Lack of mass or stiffness in the hammer is the more likely candidate. Did the tech remove mass from hammer to address a touchweight problem?

    Action saturation from overly flexible keys is another possibility but the effect of that is usually that at a certain point additional force at the key produces no added power.  What year is the piano?  Does it have a shoe on the bottom of the key?

    If the addition of B72 added power then it seems likely that the issue is the hammer itself. I like Jon's idea or adding mass via binder clips to see if that increases power. It should, at least somewhat. But if the hammer is too soft and just damping too much energy you may have to stiffen it further. If mass is the answer then you'll have to deal with possible touchweight issues that it introduces. A measure of the strike weight in the offending section would be helpful. It's quite possibly an issue of both stiffness and mass.  I've often used Hamburg Steinway hammers on Ds as they tend to have more stiffness and mass.  Sometimes action geometry modifications are required depending on your TW goal  

    In answer to Chris's question about how the impedance model fits into this the answer is obvious. A piano which lacks power is not being driven adequately by the hammer.  That may be because the action geometry can't accelerate the hammer adequately but that's not likely except in the case of action saturation. More likely the hammer lacks mass or stiffness (or both) necessary to drive what is generally a higher impedance system. 



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 22.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-19-2021 05:13
    I'm going with what Fred and David say.  Since you are meeting with the  prof tomorrow, here is a quick and dirty that i am surprised that no one has mentioned:
    Unscrew a shank that is half an octave to an octave below a test hammer and attach it to the rail at the test location.  Listen for any differences that become apparent.  You will likely hear some differences because of the heavier lower hammer, whether they give you what you need is the question. I am inclined to believe that the hammers rather than the shanks are the root of the problem.  But if adding weight is part of the solution, rather than hanging the hammers on new shanks, might it not be better to add a defined amount of weight to the hammers be a more palatable solution in these times of Covid crisis budgets and uncertainty?  This is accomplished by drilling a hole in the hammer molding and inserting a measured length of solder wire into the molding.  This should be a part of a strike weight protocol, releading, regulation, and voicing.    

    Before you proceed to do any of that, i would be prepared to test file a few hammers to see if that brings improvement.  If the set of hammers is extremely soft, you will get a better result by doing a filing and then doping as needed, as compared to simply doping to get the result.  The two procedures will NOT sound the same. 

    Finally, take pictures of the shanks and several of the hammers.  We cannot assume that these hammers are Steinway.  There could be just about anything on this action, including a set of hammers that is way too small and light for a piano of this size.  I have seen sets of "runt" hammers on concert grands before, and they sounded like you know what.  Share these pictures with us.  They can tell a lot.

      



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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 23.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-19-2021 11:46
    Before doing anything else, you need to know some foundational information. 

    We are told that jiffy leads were attached to the underside of keys. Are they still there? The question has been asked and not answered.

    We're told "Steinway sent someone." Steinway rarely sends anyone. They contact the local dealer, who sends someone. That someone may have any range of competence/experience. If this person installed leads, why were they installed?

    One possibility is that DW was high because there was a bunch of friction. That friction could commonly stem from the fact that Steinway hammers of 10 years ago (the time mentioned) were very wide (11 mm with fuzzy sides in my experience), which leads to enough rubbing to raise DW by as much as 15 grams on average. Travel is often "to one side" (all the hammers travel the same way, not vertically) and square of the hammers on the shanks becomes chaotic as a result. This leads to more rubbing friction.

    Keys are typically too tight, balance hole and bushings alike. That was the case with all four of the pianos I faced at the Steinway Academy in successive years. 

    Until you have determined where you are in terms of friction, there is no point moving on to other things, like touch weight analysis or juicing hammers. So do a quick test: can every key lift 15 grams? Can most of them lift 20? A stack of nickels will do as they weigh 5 grams each. 


    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda






  • 24.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2021 14:10
    A follow up on this thread. I met with the piano professor this morning. Here is some more information about the piano. It was bought new 20 years ago, but the person donating the money to buy the piano asked her piano technician from New York to come down and "prep" the piano. The piano technician was not sent by Steinway, rather the lady paid the tech out of her own pocket. 10 years ago when the current professor came to the school. she complained to the school's technician about a heavy touch and "spongy" feel. The tech took out the keys and found jiffy leads glued to the bottom of the keys. Strangly, none of the other piano proffs complained about the bad touch, but some of the students did. The tech removed the jiffy leads and reweighed the keys the best he could. He also replaced the (thin) shanks and new hammers. End of that story. I explaned the current situation to the piano prof, and she wants me to replace the h/s/f as soon as she finds the money. Hopefully over Spring Break. In the mean time, the B72 I added to the hammers greatly improved the tone, and she is happy.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: thin shanks

    Posted 01-14-2022 14:45
    Hello everyone, been a long time.

    I have a set of these Abel thin shanks which I purchased quite a few years ago from a supplier whom I won't name.  I had never seen a set like this before, and when I questioned the supplier about it, they replied, "The Renner-style Abel shanks come two ways.  One has 60 regular cut and 30 thin.  The other is the one you have with all the shanks thin.  The one you have is sold the most...  You should not have any problems with the set you have.  Almost all other Abel shank & flange styles have all the shanks thin including all the Steinway models."

    Is there any part of this that sounds not quite correct?  To this day, I have never, ever seen a piano with 88 thin shanks.  I assume the best place to use this set would be on a small grand with small hammers -- any suggestions?

    Also, and this may be related or not... based on the slightly-imperfect items (and some not so slightly) I've frequently received from suppliers outside Canada, I've come to the conclusion that suppliers deliberately send their slightly-imperfect items out of country because they know it's a hassle for the purchaser to send them back, so the purchaser just accepts them and makes do.  Any thoughts on this?

    Albert

    ------------------------------
    Albert Picknell
    Head Piano Technician
    Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity
    Banff AB
    403-762-6249
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: thin shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-14-2022 18:16
    Albert

    I asked the technician who put on the thin shanks, and he told me this is the way he got them from Renner. (prehung). What you're telling us is that apparently this was their normal procedure. 

    This was the first time I've ever seen a whole new set of thin shanks like this. 

    Wim