Here's a discussion from the past regarding treating vertigris. Note that many prominent technicians have weighed in on this discussion. So far as I know, there is no cure beyond replacement. Check it out:
1. verdigris treatment
Jeff Farris
Posted 10-26-2016 14:00
Hi all,
My client cannot afford new parts on their 1919 Steinway M. Besides Protek, what other treatments have had decent success. I remember back in the day someone talking about Wild Turkey, but I haven't tried it yet. Not on piano parts anyway.
Thanks for any suggestions (within reason),
Jeff Farris
Austin, TX
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Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
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2. RE: verdigris treatment
Karl Roeder
Posted 10-26-2016 14:35
Mr.Farris,
Naptha works very well on verdigris. Ronsonal lighter fluid or zippo lighter fluid should do the trick. Work it into the bushings and re-apply once or twice and the centers should free up nicely. The downside is that rust never sleeps and you'll need to do it again every 6 months or so. Be sure to be in a well ventilated space away from any open flames while you are working. My experience is that naptha works far better than protek but smells far worse.
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Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
3. RE: verdigris treatment
Ronald Nossaman
Posted 10-26-2016 16:10
The best I have managed is 5-6 years with a silicone/naphtha mix, heated
in with a heat gun. This from a distance of about 8" away, fairly low
heat, and a moving pad at hand to throw over the thing if it blew up. It
didn't, nor did the other two I did the same way. Took about an hour,
and lasted far longer than I had any right to hope. It did eventually
come back though, so if the customer can't afford parts, explain that
all you're doing is buying time for them to save up. Trying a second
application when it does return is much less successful. Bottom line is
that the parts are factory ruined toast, and replacement is the only
real fix.
Ron N
4. RE: verdigris treatment
Roger Gable
Posted 10-26-2016 15:50
Jeff,
I've always been under the assumption there has been no remedy for this problem, but I may have a solution that could work. About a year ago I experimented with "Methyl Chloroform 71-55-6 Tetra-chloroethylene 127-18-4" (ingredients on the spray can) more commonly called "brake cleaning fluid" obtained at an auto parts store. This was a circa 1920 Steinway. The process is more involved than just applying the chemical on the bushings. Remove the center pins and use the tube included with the spray can and thoroughly clean (wash) the corrosion out of the bushing and then re-pin. I'm not purporting this to be final cure for this common problem, but the piano I experimented with is still in good working order after a year of service. We'll see in a couple of years if this is still a viable fix.
Roger Gable
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www.avast.com5. RE: verdigris treatment
Donald Mannino
Posted 10-26-2016 16:44
Jeff,
I have had some temporary success with using naphtha to clean the bushings. Remove from the rail, unpin, soak the bushings with naphtha ideally dipping them flanges into a container of the cleaner.
After they are thoroughly dried, then fit new pins and reassemble. It can be done in maybe 4 – 6 hours.
I was taught, though, to always put a disclaimer on the invoice that the customer receives, and have them sign your copy. I took pity on a customer and did this cleaning job for them, and then they sold the piano and told the buyer that I had "rebuilt" the action. So the new owner contacted me after 2 – 3 years to complain that the action was becoming sluggish. I pulled out my signed copy of the invoice and brought it with me to the new owner's home, confirmed what the problem was, and gave them a copy of the invoice for their records. I then sent them an estimate for parts replacement.
My disclaimer simply stated that the treatment applied at the customer's request is a temporary solution, and that eventually the sluggishness will likely return. The only permanent and guaranteed solution would be to replace the parts.
So, be warned. J
Don Mannino RPT
6. RE: verdigris treatment
Susan Kline
Posted 10-26-2016 21:09
There's something I've done to a couple of M's which are not played by professionals. They seem to be doing fine after a number of years of normal household use. However, I'm sure this way of retrieving a seizing M is not for everyone. There is a trade-off between parts cost and diddly fiddly bench work. I have enough time and don't mind puttering away at center pins while watching TV.
I replaced the wippen flanges, checked the pinning of the flies and balanciers, which usually aren't too bad unless someone has sprayed the action; and then I replaced the hammer flanges but drilled out the shank bushings and rebushed. (I also bolstered the knuckles/rollers.) I now have a beautiful unused set of Steinway shanks without flanges --- which was sort of stupid. I've thought of seeing if Renner or Tokiwa might provide me with several sets of Steinwayhammer flanges without the shanks, but I haven't gotten around to asking them yet.
Anyway, with the wippens ("repetitions"), most of the trouble is in the flange bushings, and new flanges fix that. I theorized that rebushing the hammer shanks would slow the migration of oil into the hammer centers. The pleasing lightly built old parts can be kept, and the original hammers, so I substituted labor time for most of the parts cost.
All this assumes that no one has sprayed or is going to spray the action. I imagine that in the East and South most actions with verdigris have already been too fouled with lubricant for just replacing the flanges to work. I remember one totally seized Steinway M which I "zapped" as a temporary fix -- the piano was about to be moved to Hawaii. I explained that the parts would need to be replaced very soon after the move. The oil just bubbled and boiled out of the parts, which were a very dark brown, and a cloud of vaporized oily smoke came out of the centers. Sometimes I'm embarrassed for my profession.
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Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
7. RE: verdigris treatment
Paul Brown
Posted 10-26-2016 21:10
Edited by Paul Brown 10-26-2016 21:34
Hi Jeff,
I am for parts replacement as some others have stated.
For most actions (without success on Steinway flanges of course), I have applied Ballistol with a syringe (drop at a time) in combination with a hair dryer while aggressively moving the parts to work in the solution.
You might try Ustanol (not the spray version). It is the lower viscosity version of Ballistol.
http://www.ballistol.de/93-1-Ustanol.html (expand the 'mehr infos' - for more information).
Buy and try on old Steinway flanges (drop at a time with a syringe) in combination with a hair dryer/heat gun before using on your client's piano.
Paul.
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Paul Brown, RPT
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email:
paulbrn@telus.net8. RE: verdigris treatment
Geoff Sykes
Posted 10-26-2016 22:40
I'm hoping that I will learn something by posting this follow-up question. Why won't simply repinning the part be sufficient? You pull the old pin out, run one of Don's bushing burnishing tools through the hole to clean the felt up a bit and resize it for a new pin, and stick in a new pin. Does the verdigris really saturate the felt and the part so much that replacement of the entire part is necessary?
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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
9. RE: verdigris treatment
Paul McCloud
Posted 10-26-2016 22:50
Geoff:
If you've never worked on these, it's hard to imagine what you'll find when you do. The answer is YES. Over many years, there have been many attempts to cure this disease, but so far as I've heard, nothing is guaranteed (yet) to do so. Except replacement of the parts. The flanges were supposed to have been dipped in a solution of tallow as a lubricant. That means all of the wood is saturated with it too, and the stuff migrates even into new felt somehow. The felt gets gummy and gooey. Some techs have used various solvents like Perk and brake fluid (I haven't tried them myself) and have some success. In the home, perhaps just using some Protek will get you down the road, but it seems to come back after some time.
YMMV.
Paul McCloud
San Diego
10. RE: verdigris treatment
Geoff Sykes
Posted 10-27-2016 00:49
I've had a number of customers with sticky action flange problems, some of them with noticeable verdigris issues, that Protek has been of significant help. But I tell them up front that if the Proteck treatment doesn't last until the next tuning then repinning is the next step. Many of the actions then do fine with just the Protek treatment, but not all. Of the actions that I have had to repin, none of them, (so far - fingers crossed), have needed followup work. Since none of the pianos I have dealt with this way were Steinway's I have to ask, is the verdigris problem that requires part replacement, and which is under discussion here, specifically a Steinway issue?
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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
11. RE: verdigris treatment
Willem Blees
Posted 10-26-2016 23:27
Jeff
Presumably you've all the responses. Sine there really is no "cure" for the verdigris, I would suggest you charge them repin the hammer flanges, but tell the customer that the best solution is new parts, and to start saving their money. Perhaps, as an incentive, tell them you'll give them credit for half the amount they spent on the repining if they agree to have you put on a new set of hammers, shanks and flanges within 2 years.
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Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
12. RE: verdigris treatment
Blaine Hebert
Posted 10-27-2016 00:27
I worked for a small dealer in Hollywood (anyone remember Charlie Crenshaw?) and he took in many verdigris Steinways. Over many years I watched him hose down dozens of actions with gallons of lighter fluid, leaving the actions in the sun, heating them and we tried everything we could think of to remedy the corrosion... all to no avail.
I have had many a customer with locked-up treble sections that I repinned every year, only to have to repin again the next year.
Since this is a problem with a natural oil (probably an animal fat or vegetable oil) that degrades, producing acetic acid, which reacts with copper to produce the copper-acetate gum that we know and love I often wonder if ammonia might react and neutralize the acid. I had to clean off a thick layer of verdigris from a naked Steinway action frame and ammonia did work, but slowly and with lots of elbow grease. I have not tried using ammonia on parts, but my last set was so thoroughly gummed up that I would not bother with anything except new parts. As it was I had to scrub off the keys as well - someone hosed down the balance rail with something like WD-40 (or crankcase oil).
If there was a magic cure we would all be using it by now... recommend new parts! If they can't afford that just keep repining and dousing with ProTek.
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Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
13. RE: verdigris treatment
Cecil Snyder
Posted 10-27-2016 02:31
In Ireland, what we call mineral oil is known as "paraffin oil," which I think is a much better description of the stuff, which is after all a petroleum derivative. Historically, I believe mineral oil was once the most common treatment far whatever ailed pianos, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was not also used as a prophylactic treatment as well. It is not hard to envision what happens when the more volatile components of mineral oil gradually evaporate over time. What you're left with is paraffin, or simply wax. Repinning will of course not remedy this because the stuff is in the bushing cloth. And remember the center pins themselves, though they look like steel, are in fact an alloy of brass composed of copper, zinc and other metals, all of which are subject to oxidation over time. I've tried to dissolve wax in many different kinds of solvents, none of which had the slightest effect. The CDC, I recall reading, has unrefrigerated tissue samples from the WW I era preserved in wax (of Spanish influenza and other nasty stuff.) Wax lasts forever, you'll never succeed in dissolving it or washing it away. I've used naphtha and dimethyl silicone oil myself to treat verdigris, and as others have already noted, it is at best a temporary fix.
The best solution to the problem is of course to replace the parts. It is also, in the long run, the most cost-effective solution. Most of these pianos are Steinways from the 1920s if not earlier. The wood is often brittle with age, especially if its been in a dry climate. However, I'm not adverse to offering my customers other solutions if they feel they can't afford this. Sometimes you may find that the the problem is confined primarily to one set of centers or another. The hammer flanges, jack centers and whippen flanges are all pinned separately to begin with and with different specs as far as tightness. Sometimes you may find that only the hammer flanges are a problem. Other times, it is the jack centers. In this situation I may offer to rebush and repin only the offending set of centers. (Repinning alone is just a waste of time--you have to replace the bushing cloth.) Of course I make clear this is only a partial cure, but often this stop-gap solution may be the best fit for the customer. (And think of all the problems involved with replacement parts which you are circumventing.) I have yet to rebush and repin all the centers in an action, as this would cost almost as much in labor as you'd be saving in parts, but I have done sets of hammer flanges and/or jack centers, and it's a repair which is useful and good as far as it goes. (Use Renner flange bushing cloth, nothing else compares.) Take some time to analyze the action before you throw up your hands or turn up your nose. Perhaps there is a solution both you and your customer can live with.
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Cecil Snyder
Torrance CA
310-542-7108
Original Message------
I wish that someone actually knew for sure what the exact cause of verdigris was. I have heard over the years from some people that it was mutton tallow impregenated bushing cloth like David said and from others that it was from dipping the parts in paraffin wax. Both seem plausible. Fats go rancid and turn acidic which would definitley corrode brass. However I am not sure about the effects of paraffin on brass, but many older piano parts appear to be coated in some type of wax rather than finish. My concern is that if verdigris actually comes from paraffin migrating from the wood into cloth...that means even after rebushing the verdigris could have the potential of returning....after a number of years. Anybody actually have solid proof which of these is the actual cause?
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Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
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