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Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

  • 1.  Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-10-2019 17:21
    Hello,

    Does anyone know how or if you can repair a worn out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster set screw?

    It's been pushed around too much with the breaks on and has finally stopped working. The other one is still locking so I only need to repair or replace or repair one. 

    I haven't taken it apart but I'm assuming that whatever metal that the set screw was engaging with is now gone. 

    Any helpful advice would be appreciated.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Marshall, RPT
    San Francisco State University
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-11-2019 14:03
    Hi, Paul,

    I deal with these casters a lot. I have information that will help you, I think, but I’m in Tucson at PTG convention. It was a couple of years back and it will take me some digging but if you can wait, I’ll try tp find it.

    I have about a dozen pianos with casters like these. On a couple of occasions, the threaded socket that is held up inside the leg with a flange with screw holes, at the bottom of the leg, broke. You can’t buy just one socket or one caster from Steinway or Yamaha, or couldn’t at that time. I bought a couple of whole sets over the years and replaced old ones, so I ended up with an extra socket. I sold it to someone a year or two ago, and he ended up sending me photos of exactly what you are talking about. I know what you mean, each set ended up costing me over $2000 with shipping, but it’s a good way to end up with spares.

    Give me some time to research it, and I’ll get back to you. I recall several photos and a discussion, so we may end up taking it off line, or whatever’s best.

    Kathy




  • 3.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-11-2019 16:21
    Thanks Kathy! I really appreciate it. 

    Sincerely,

    Paul Marshall
    Registered Piano Technician
    Advanced Degree in Piano Technology
    North Bennet Street School
    415.706.9142

    For information on pianos, please visit ptg.org






  • 4.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-11-2019 16:58
    Found the photo and got permission to use it. I’ll add it later.
    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 5.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-11-2019 23:18
    I'll try to attach the photo and some text to this "Reply All", and if it doesn't work I'll try again later. It's getting late in Tucson at PTG National, and my time is a bit limited!

    The origin of the topic was a question from Marty, a facilities manager at Shepherd School of Music at Rice in Houston. He'd seen my previous posts, I think, about the big casters and asked for information. His had stopped braking at all, after too much pushing around with the brakes "on" and they wore out inside. With information I sent him, he sent his caster to the "campus research machine shop" where they took it apart. He sent me a nice annotated photo of the insides, and a description of what they were going to do to fix it. 

    I'll try to attach the photo and then the text here. Excuse me in advance if it fails; if so, I'll get it done later. Fingers crossed, let me know if you can see it. After having seen the photo myself, I'd be a bit daunted by the task of trying this repair, but hey......

    Kathy


    Thought you might like to see these wheels taken apart.  The round cap on the end of the axle is threaded and can be removed with padded-jaw pliers although we milled a flat on one to remove it with a wrench..  The problem is that the brake ring threads are stripped.  We will put Helicoil in the hole and re-tap the threads.  The tightening shaft threads are quite solid.  Also, the brake "drum" material is kind of a hard plastic that gets worn, and the inner ring of the wheels gets grooved.  We will smooth that out and either replace or shim the brake "drum" material.  We will also clean and lubricate the bearings, which appear to be in good shape but are dry.






  • 6.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-11-2019 23:20
    Hi, all,

    It looks like sending the photo worked, but the picture might be a little small to see the annotated information and small parts. Let me know if any of you want it sent larger, and I’ll give that a try.

    Kathy




  • 7.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 00:44
    Wow! Thank you. I should probably just do the inevitable and put a spider dolly on it but it seems like a shame. 

    Sincerely,

    Paul Marshall
    Registered Piano Technician
    Advanced Degree in Piano Technology
    North Bennet Street School
    415.706.9142

    For information on pianos, please visit ptg.org






  • 8.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 02:12
    That’s a thought, but many artists don’t care for the sound transfer or the looks. And if you do, remember that the shorter legs that come with the big casters will require different drop-end arms on the dolly. Normal drop arms end up with the lyre bottom nearly dragging the floor, a recipe for disaster. I’ve seen it a few times and it has to be fixed before someone breaks the lyre off on a high spot.

    I have another trick for big (or any) wheels with brakes that don’t work. I learned it from a stage manager. Get a foot or so of 1/8” or 1/4” line. Wrap it around the bottom of the wheel at the contact point on the floor and snug it up, and then then do a second wheel. The wheels really resist starting to roll when they encounter that little bump. Cheap and quick.

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 9.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 07-12-2019 07:15
    Over the years we had similar problems with these large brass double - wheel casters, firstly on 2 Hamburg D's purchased in  1988 and then again on 2 American D's purchased in 2011. In  a fixed location or an instrument that is only occasionally moved maybe its still a viable option over the longer leg /Darnell caster choice, but especially in a CAUT busy performance hall  with daily moves of different pianos on and off stage AND with student work study stage crew who would sometimes over tighten the locking device  I don't think they are a good choice. On 2 occasions we had to remove the leg and with help from piano mover/machinist make necessary repairs this after  contacting Steinway who were no help apart from advising to purchase  new  replacements for $2000!!.........martin
    www.snowpianos.com.

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 10:47
    I think you named the main issue, Martin; almost all of that damage comes from over-tightening with the handle. Here’s where the mantra, “Snug is good, tight is bad” applies, but you are right, it’s hard to control students, various helpful people, and even piano movers. Somehow when they see that big piano they think it requires them to really jam the wheels. The purchase of new wheels is almost abusive, I know, but I was able to make a lot of headway by pointing out the safety issues of a rolling half-ton of very expensive piano. And purchase of a set just about always leaves one with some very useful spares.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 11.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 12:48
    Kathy/All, I just had to "recondition" a couple of these on our choir hall St D. These were in service quite a few years in our main recital hall without issue until we "downgraded" this D to upgrade the choir hall. Then all 3 began to tarnish & CORRODE badly. Cause is apparently the floor stripper & floor wax people! 
    So.. we ordered ONE new extra caster assembly so that I could clean up the others & spray them with clear lacquer to help protect. 
    ANYWAY, back to the particular issue at hand; 
    I put rather LARGE labels on the non-audience side (and front side) of each front leg of our newer D in the recital saying, DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN !! 
    People were constantly over doing it until I put these labels in place. Things have improved GREATLY! Your mileage will DEFINITELY vary....what has shocked me the most is that a lot of my huge signage over the years really has seemed to help significantly!! Turns out there are a lot of "kids" that truly just DO NOT KNOW! Gotta get "in their face" but with kindness. 



    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 16:55
    Paul, are you aware of just how much WORK & expense converting back to old school spider dollies will take??! You will most likely have to replace the legs with the longer legs from Steinway AND probably change out the leg plates including the 3 routed into the bottom of the piano. Steinway sells special legs (Hamburg style) for converting to the new casters but I can't imagine them selling the legs to convert back to the weaker old style plates. 
    Besides that MOST PERFORMERS will probably be very unhappy & guest artists will be disappointed (if they find out you went BACK to the old style). The old ones had to have maintenance also but the casters were admittedly more affordable. I highly discourage this. 
    Could you possibly cut off the handle shorter to rob them of so much torque??
    Also consider Pianoforte supply sells these type of casters as does Wessel/Nickel ie Mason & Hamlin. Should not be hard to swap out -worth checking into!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 17:28
    Hi, Kevin,

    If anyone makes the choice to go from casters to a “spider dolly” (which I would make every effort NOT to do, personally) you don’t need to switch out to the longer legs. Jansen, on I think page 21, “Piano Dollies - Grands" sells one model specifically for concert grands with the big casters. This just means that where the arm ends drop down at the outer ends, there’s less of a drop, to accommodate the shorter legs. That way the lyre doesn’t end up dragging the ground. I don’t know when they started to offer it, but I’ve personally seen so many problems caused by the Short-Leg / Big-Caster arrangement being put onto any old dolly that I wish they’d been available or better advertised back then.

    Kathy




  • 14.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-13-2019 22:12
    Oh ok! Thanks Kathy. My badness. That makes sense. I just was just picturing leg extensions of some sort. Thanks for getting me "up to speed"

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Member
    Posted 07-13-2019 11:20
    ​Also Steinway no longer sells "old" style leg plates; tried to order a set last week.

    ------------------------------
    John Ginter
    Plum Piano Restoration, Inc.
    La Grange TX
    979-242=5180
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 16:01
    Kathy, it's so great to have that photo and all the info you've shared about these casters... thank you!
     
    Teri
     
     
    Hi, all, It looks like sending the photo worked, but the picture might be a little small to see the annotated information and small parts. Let me... -posted to the "CAUT" community
    Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.

    CAUT

      Post New Message
    Re: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster
    Reply to Group Reply to Sender
    Jul 11, 2019 11:20 PM
    Kathy Smith
    Hi, all,

    It looks like sending the photo worked, but the picture might be a little small to see the annotated information and small parts. Let me know if any of you want it sent larger, and I'll give that a try.

    Kathy

      Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Mark as Inappropriate  




     
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    Original Message------

    Hi, all,

    It looks like sending the photo worked, but the picture might be a little small to see the annotated information and small parts. Let me know if any of you want it sent larger, and I’ll give that a try.

    Kathy



  • 17.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2019 16:10
    You’re welcome Teri, and everyone who finds it useful. I never would have predicted I would spend this much time in my career dealing with all these different casters!

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 18.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 07-26-2019 19:42
      |   view attached
    Hello, sorry I am coming to this thread two weeks late!
    The casters in question are the old style "yoke" casters used on Hamburg Steinways for quite a while. I am not sure exactly when they went away from this design to the current one with the central "body"

    Replacement casters for the old style are available, but a little less cost, you could upgrade the casters to a a much better design - more visually appealing and more durable. Also available with a PUR vulcanized tread to protect sensitive floors.

    http://www.pianofortesupply.com/parts/casters/grand-casters/grand-casters-2/






    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 09-15-2019 17:24
    https://studymoose.com/narrative-essay-topics site? Are these people who have the appropriate education? Is it possible to find out what their work experience is, long-term or not? At the same time, I read that the company itself has existed not so long ago, although it retains its leadership position due to several advantages. Your opinion is important to me. I want to order an essay there. And more than just one."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":1049089,"3":{"1":0},"12":0,"23":2}">Hello! Tell me please, what is the staff on this https://studymoose.com/narrative-essay-topics site? Are these people who have the appropriate education? Is it possible to find out what their work experience is, long-term or not? At the same time, I read that the company itself has existed not so long ago, although it retains its leadership position due to several advantages. Your opinion is important to me. I want to order an essay there. And more than just one.

    ------------------------------
    riiupw afrass
    1988
    fratees
    12123123123123
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 07-13-2019 10:08
    I’ve also been following this thread with great interest and wanted to thank you gentle folks for sharing all this info. I wasn’t aware of the overtightening issue (in addition to accidentally dragging the pianos around with engaged brakes. Speaking of “brakes”, I am fascinated and find it interesting that colloquial spelling for “brakes” in many instances has become “breaks”! I suppose that people see the word misspelled and follow suit.) I will revise the warning and “please please please” signage I attached to the covers of affected pianos when I get back from Tucson. UCLA recently purchased a new CFX and NY Steinway D with these brass wheels for its Schoenberg Hall, as well as a Hamburg D for the recording studio, all with these lovely and functional brass casters—which move much easier and are far better looking than stage dollies (and resonate through the wooden stage as well, and support the structure of the piano more evenly on a flat floor with less stress) but more worrisome. One other issue we have is, I also asked our stage personnel to watch for the “lip” of the orchestra pit lift created in spots, when the pianos are brought up from their storage space in the mezzanine below up and rolled onto the stage. The stage and the lift are not quite flush with each other and are offset slightly in spots, creating a small “cliff” or raised edge to cross which I know is very rough on the piano legs rolling over that. There are some “flat spots” though in areas where the lift and stage meet, which are ok to roll the pianos over and I urged the stage crew to roll the pianos over to the stage at those locations. I brought this up to facilities to have the lift readjusted properly.

    Sean McLaughlin
    Lead Piano Technician
    UCLA Herb Alpert School of Music
    Los Angeles, California
    310-825-7058




  • 21.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-15-2019 12:46
    Hi, Sean,

    I will mention another thing I learned the hard way. Those beautiful brass casters consist of a non-moving socket “tube” up inside the leg with threads on its inner top, and its flange is screwed to the leg bottom. The business end of the caster has its own flange, which I call the outer flange, and the caster's stem has threads at the top that screw into the socket when it’s installed. The outer flange has two slots that are used to snug it tight against the inner flange. (Then the caster rotates on its own bearings, and the stem should not move.)

    I have learned to snug up those two flanges every year, or at least every other year. I let a couple of pianos go about 3 years, thinking the casters were fine because when the weight of the piano was sitting on them, they looked solid. By chance one had to be put on its side, and when the movers picked it up, I saw a caster swinging in the breeze! I was shocked, and I could turn the outer flange 3 full turns back up to snug up against the inner flange. When it’s that bad, you can turn the outer flange back in with your fingertips.

    Those pianos roll around the stage with random swiveling of the casters. Over time, they come unscrewed. I strongly advise NOT to put LocTite in the threads, because on occasion they must come out. (I have had to remove casters when a socket tube broke away from its inner flange, and once when bad after-market screws holding the inner flange sheared off, and so on.)

    Every year in your annual maintenance program (mine has a worksheet which I keep year after year to track progress) I snug them up. After one year, there’s not much to do, maybe 1/4 turn. You must lift the weight off each wheel in turn, and I use a Jack-in-the-Box from Jansen. The wheel only needs to come 1/8” off the floor. I use a spanner tool from Yamaha, which is beautiful and fits (so far) on CFIII, CFX, NY and Hamburg large casters from any of the last 20 years or so. I suspect it may fit other makes as well. The tool is expensive but wonderful, If you want a cheaper alternative, there’s an adjustable spanner from McMaster Carr with 1/4” round pegs. If you are willing to do some grinding, you can make the pegs into shorter rectangular tabs to fit the slots, and I think it’s $39. If you want photos, I can send them. This was part of a concert business class I was teaching, so they’re handy.




  • 22.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 07-27-2019 15:41
    Kathy, wow. I would more than appreciate that! Thank you for your thoughtful generosity and taking the time to share your experiences and insights with these wheels.

    Sean McLaughlin
    Lead Piano Technician
    UCLA Herb Alpert School of Music
    Los Angeles, California
    310-825-7058




  • 23.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2019 17:59
    Hi, Sean,

    I’ll send you several pictures off-line. Anyone else wants to see them, I can post several here later.

    Kathy




  • 24.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2019 18:22
    Hi, Sean,

    I tried to reply to you as “sender” but it didn’t seem to offer an attachment icon, so I need an email for you so I can send the photos. Or I can attach them to the whole group, since I see how to do that. There are several photos - didn’t want to dominate the airwaves.

    Kathy




  • 25.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2019 19:05
    Don't be shy now, Kathy. Dominate away! I want to see those pictures too, as I imagine others do as well.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2019 20:29
    Ah, Alan, how can I resist a request like that? Let the domination begin.

    Here's what I had ready to send to Sean:

    Hi, Sean,

    I pulled some photos from my Concert class. I'll attach them here. They show the pricey Yamaha tool, a caster pulled apart to repair sheared-off incorrect screws that held the socket and tube up inside the leg (after-market; someone used drywall screws!), the McMaster Carr adjustable spanner and the grinding that you'll need to do. Also a shot of the Yamaha tool in use as it's meant to work. Remember, none of this tightening stuff works unless you take the weight off the caster first. Without the original Yamaha tool to copy, you'll need to use trial and error to get the pegs to fit the slots in the flange. I'd be tempted to lift a corner of a grand and unscrew a caster unit from the socket to take to your shop and/or grinder. You'll learn a lot just doing that. (You'll probably need a GrandStand or transporter to support the piano while its caster is off, depending on how you lift the corner.)

    You'll need to grind the round pegs into rectangles that fit the slots, grind the back because it's too thick, and grind down the tops of the pegs because they're a bit too tall. We did some of the fussy grinding with a little angle grinder to get into the corners, the rest on a normal bench grinder. You only need them to fit into the flange slots, which are only about 1/4" deep - I'm just guessing from memory. But hey, when I bought my tool for the sake of experimentation, it was $39, if I recall. The Yamaha tool is $127, though I've never regretted getting it.

    I have more photos of casters pulled apart in case anyone hasn't seen their insides. I also have the McMaster Carr part number but I'd have to dig it out of my class notes. I leave tomorrow morning for Maryland and will be back on the 6th. Casters in my photo collection have several different shapes, tightening knob arrangements and so on, but the flanges and the tool continue to work the same.







  • 27.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 07-12-2019 19:25
    On this note, we have a Kawai EX that needs a new caster as well. I guess it's a similar design.

    ------------------------------
    Stephen Duncan RPT
    UNC Greensboro
    College of Visual and Performing Arts
    School of Music
    336-847-6310
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2019 18:30
    Hello All,

    Has anyone ever removed a Hamburg caster from the leg? Jurgon has sent me specs for his casters but I need to mic the mortise etc.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Marshall, RPT
    San Francisco State University
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2019 20:54
    Hi Paul,
    The way you have this worded, do you mean remove the main caster assembly from the socket in the leg? If I understand you, you just loosen the outer flange (visible above the caster and probably about flush with the bottom of the wood) where it snugs up against the unseen innner flange, which has the screws holding the socket where it goes up inside the leg. The outer flange has the two slots that accept a spanner tool, if the fit is very snug. Then the flange continues to rotate out until the stem, threaded at its top end, unscrews from the inside of the socket. Sorry, I’m traveling and hampered by using only my phone.
    If that’s not what you mean, then I’ll check back later.
    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 30.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2019 21:42
    That's what I mean. I saw the two slots/notches on the base but wasn't positive as to what they did. I'll look around the shop for a spanner tool. 

    Sincerely,

    Paul Marshall
    Registered Piano Technician
    Advanced Degree in Piano Technology
    North Bennet Street School
    415.706.9142

    For information on pianos, please visit ptg.org






  • 31.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2019 21:50
    If the fit isn’t very tight, you can put your fingertips in the slots and back out the flange. If you don’t have a tool to fit, and you likely won’t because it’s pretty specialized, you can use a brass drift to tap sideways on one of the slot edges until the snug fit loosens. The usual, looking at the slots, counter clockwise to loosen. Once started, you can turn the whole flange and caster out with your fingers.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 32.  RE: Worn Out Hamburg-style giant brass double-wheel caster

    Posted 09-15-2019 17:25
    https://studymoose.com/narrative-essay-topics site? Are these people who have the appropriate education? Is it possible to find out what their work experience is, long-term or not? At the same time, I read that the company itself has existed not so long ago, although it retains its leadership position due to several advantages. Your opinion is important to me. I want to order an essay there. And more than just one."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":1049089,"3":{"1":0},"12":0,"23":2}">Hello! Tell me please, what is the staff on this \

    ------------------------------
    riiupw afrass
    1988
    fratees
    12123123123123
    ------------------------------