Pianotech

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D. 

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe. 
Many fell out. 

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound 
the sloppy key problem. 

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers. 

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth. 

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled). 

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge. 

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/1/2021 9:49:00 AM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D. 

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe. 
Many fell out. 

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound 
the sloppy key problem. 

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers. 

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth. 

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled). 

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge. 

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Hi, Debra. 

I think you are probably right about the cloth being overly treated with something.
The fact that the keys were so wobbly sort of supports that hypothesis. Apparently
a previous tech tried to get to negative friction. Zero of course being the lowest
that could possibly exist. I did have success carefully applying Titebond liquid hide
glue to the wood, but I only used it as a bond, not a pre-treatment. I will try that in the
future. I think that the urea helped it to penetrate into the beech. One thing I had
not considered is the density and smoothness of the surface on beechwood. I could
not come up with anything to rough up the surface that would not ablate away some
wood on short notice. I did use acetone to try and remove any chemical residue that
might have been left behind after the second set of bushings failed. Maybe that was
part of the success I had with the Titebond. It looks like - what is it they say - third time's
the charm. Or is it three on a match? Only time will tell, I suppose. 


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:30
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

I do hundreds of sets of rebushing each year.  I have run across this a couple times.  I have concluded that the bushing cloth (either the old or the new) was contaminated and that led to either glue staying with wood but not cloth or glue sticking to cloth but not wood.  This is the main reason why I do not advocate any liquid being used to treat/lube key bushings.  Too many unknowns and some people do stuff excessively!  I resolved the problem in each instance by coating the mortise with very thin hide glue so it would sink in to the wood and allowing it to set overnight, then rebushing as usual with a different supply house cloth.

Deb

--

Debra Legg

www.debraleggpiano.com

5 Tarr's Lane WEST

Rockport, MA  01966
978-546-8428

Original Message:
Sent: 3/1/2021 9:49:00 AM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/4/2021 2:31:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, Debra. 

I think you are probably right about the cloth being overly treated with something.
The fact that the keys were so wobbly sort of supports that hypothesis. Apparently
a previous tech tried to get to negative friction. Zero of course being the lowest
that could possibly exist. I did have success carefully applying Titebond liquid hide
glue to the wood, but I only used it as a bond, not a pre-treatment. I will try that in the
future. I think that the urea helped it to penetrate into the beech. One thing I had
not considered is the density and smoothness of the surface on beechwood. I could
not come up with anything to rough up the surface that would not ablate away some
wood on short notice. I did use acetone to try and remove any chemical residue that
might have been left behind after the second set of bushings failed. Maybe that was
part of the success I had with the Titebond. It looks like - what is it they say - third time's
the charm. Or is it three on a match? Only time will tell, I suppose. 


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:30
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

I do hundreds of sets of rebushing each year.  I have run across this a couple times.  I have concluded that the bushing cloth (either the old or the new) was contaminated and that led to either glue staying with wood but not cloth or glue sticking to cloth but not wood.  This is the main reason why I do not advocate any liquid being used to treat/lube key bushings.  Too many unknowns and some people do stuff excessively!  I resolved the problem in each instance by coating the mortise with very thin hide glue so it would sink in to the wood and allowing it to set overnight, then rebushing as usual with a different supply house cloth.

Deb

--

Debra Legg

www.debraleggpiano.com

5 Tarr's Lane WEST

Rockport, MA  01966
978-546-8428

Original Message:
Sent: 3/1/2021 9:49:00 AM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Dave,

We're you by any chance using pre-sliced cloth from Pianotek, or cut your own from stock? 

Edit: I'm pretty sure the originals were glued with heat activated adhesive. If so, some residue might be a barrier.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:31
From: James Kelly
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Hi, Peter. 

Pianotek cloth was used. the stuff cut into 52" strips. I can't seem to find a source for 
it on a roll anywhere, like APSCO used to sell (aside from the quality). 

I was suspicious that the thermal set adhesive might have something to do with this issue. 
Neither Kent Webb nor Kluge seem to think so. 

Mark at Pianotek said they haven't carried stock in the thermal set cloth for six years. 

Titebond liquid hide glue seems to be holding better. None have come out on the sample
keys I have bushed. I would like to try fish glue, but don't have lead time to wait for it to
arrive. The piano needs to be up and running today. 

Thanks for your input.

Dave

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:57
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Dave,

We're you by any chance using pre-sliced cloth from Pianotek, or cut your own from stock?

Edit: I'm pretty sure the originals were glued with heat activated adhesive. If so, some residue might be a barrier.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:31
From: James Kelly
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Hi Dave- for me fish glue proved a bit too liquid and penetrated some cloths enough to cause noises. YMMV.

Good luck with this.

David

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:53
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, Peter.

Pianotek cloth was used. the stuff cut into 52" strips. I can't seem to find a source for
it on a roll anywhere, like APSCO used to sell (aside from the quality).

I was suspicious that the thermal set adhesive might have something to do with this issue.
Neither Kent Webb nor Kluge seem to think so.

Mark at Pianotek said they haven't carried stock in the thermal set cloth for six years.

Titebond liquid hide glue seems to be holding better. None have come out on the sample
keys I have bushed. I would like to try fish glue, but don't have lead time to wait for it to
arrive. The piano needs to be up and running today.

Thanks for your input.

Dave

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:57
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Dave,

We're you by any chance using pre-sliced cloth from Pianotek, or cut your own from stock?

Edit: I'm pretty sure the originals were glued with heat activated adhesive. If so, some residue might be a barrier.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:31
From: James Kelly
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/2/2021 11:17:00 AM
From: David Brown
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Hi Dave- for me fish glue proved a bit too liquid and penetrated some cloths enough to cause noises. YMMV.

Good luck with this.

David

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:53
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, Peter.

Pianotek cloth was used. the stuff cut into 52" strips. I can't seem to find a source for
it on a roll anywhere, like APSCO used to sell (aside from the quality).

I was suspicious that the thermal set adhesive might have something to do with this issue.
Neither Kent Webb nor Kluge seem to think so.

Mark at Pianotek said they haven't carried stock in the thermal set cloth for six years.

Titebond liquid hide glue seems to be holding better. None have come out on the sample
keys I have bushed. I would like to try fish glue, but don't have lead time to wait for it to
arrive. The piano needs to be up and running today.

Thanks for your input.

Dave

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:57
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Dave,

We're you by any chance using pre-sliced cloth from Pianotek, or cut your own from stock?

Edit: I'm pretty sure the originals were glued with heat activated adhesive. If so, some residue might be a barrier.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:31
From: James Kelly
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, David.

Thanks for the heads up. I knew that it was a little thin and that

might lead to wicking through, especially with thin cloth. 

Hope you are doing well.

Dave

--

Dave Conte, RPT, CCT

Dave Conte Piano Works

817-581-7321

dave@daveconte.com

www.daveconte.com

Original Message:
Sent: 3/2/2021 11:17:00 AM
From: David Brown
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Hi Dave- for me fish glue proved a bit too liquid and penetrated some cloths enough to cause noises. YMMV.

Good luck with this.

David

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:53
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, Peter.

Pianotek cloth was used. the stuff cut into 52" strips. I can't seem to find a source for
it on a roll anywhere, like APSCO used to sell (aside from the quality).

I was suspicious that the thermal set adhesive might have something to do with this issue.
Neither Kent Webb nor Kluge seem to think so.

Mark at Pianotek said they haven't carried stock in the thermal set cloth for six years.

Titebond liquid hide glue seems to be holding better. None have come out on the sample
keys I have bushed. I would like to try fish glue, but don't have lead time to wait for it to
arrive. The piano needs to be up and running today.

Thanks for your input.

Dave

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:57
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Dave,

We're you by any chance using pre-sliced cloth from Pianotek, or cut your own from stock?

Edit: I'm pretty sure the originals were glued with heat activated adhesive. If so, some residue might be a barrier.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:31
From: James Kelly
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Norman-
Great point and good advice. I have begun to use fish glue more again recently and like it very much.
D

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-03-2021 08:17
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Dave and David

I started out over 40 years ago working with pipe organs and hide glue was pretty much all we used for wood to leather and wood to felt glue ups.  Glue sizing was almost always practiced and the next layer is similar to lacquer in that it amalgamates itself to the previous layer.  Sizing was to help the working layer not wick into the wood so badly and stay around for the job intended of sticking things together.  Using heated cauls helps the hide glue work longer as well.  When leathering a pipe organ reservoir we used rags with hot water wrung out very well to assist in both clean up and allowing the heat to help the glue adhere as the glue for the long strips of leather  (up to 36 inches) could begin to tack prematurely if the shop was a little on the cool side.

Fish glue is great for a lot of repairs as well.  You mentioned that it was a bit on the thin side.  If you pour some up into say a baby food jar and leave the lid off a while it will thicken up to a useable consistency.  Since it is water based like hide glue you can vary the viscosity to your liking as you can with hide.

Both glues are great to have around.  Another benefit to Fish glue in the field is that it is not affected by freeze thaw cycles that plague Titebond.  As we have seen even Texas can have freeze that cycles occasionally.

Norman

Original Message:
Sent: 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, David.

Thanks for the heads up. I knew that it was a little thin and that

might lead to wicking through, especially with thin cloth. 

Hope you are doing well.

Dave

--

Dave Conte, RPT, CCT

Dave Conte Piano Works

817-581-7321

dave@daveconte.com

www.daveconte.com

Original Message:
Sent: 3/2/2021 11:17:00 AM
From: David Brown
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Hi Dave- for me fish glue proved a bit too liquid and penetrated some cloths enough to cause noises. YMMV.

Good luck with this.

David

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:53
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hi, Peter.

Pianotek cloth was used. the stuff cut into 52" strips. I can't seem to find a source for
it on a roll anywhere, like APSCO used to sell (aside from the quality).

I was suspicious that the thermal set adhesive might have something to do with this issue.
Neither Kent Webb nor Kluge seem to think so.

Mark at Pianotek said they haven't carried stock in the thermal set cloth for six years.

Titebond liquid hide glue seems to be holding better. None have come out on the sample
keys I have bushed. I would like to try fish glue, but don't have lead time to wait for it to
arrive. The piano needs to be up and running today.

Thanks for your input.

Dave

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:57
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Dave,

We're you by any chance using pre-sliced cloth from Pianotek, or cut your own from stock?

Edit: I'm pretty sure the originals were glued with heat activated adhesive. If so, some residue might be a barrier.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 10:31
From: James Kelly
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/1/2021 10:32:00 AM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

You did not mention if you used cauls of any type to hold the new bushings in to help the felt compress and for the glue to set. I use Spurlocks cauls with a sizing caul and final caul . There my be some residue on the wood affecting the glue adhesion, the hide glue may be bad or not mixed properly etc. I have purchased fish glue from Lee Valley Tools and had good luck with felt attachment. However when it comes to doing full keysets I send them out to Walker Key Service in Kentucky. You may want to call them for some advice. You also need to make sure the wood has dried out after steaming . The keypin size determines the best felt to use . If the keys got over eased make sure the balance pin hole is not over sized or you may need to glue size it or even install inserts. Definitely get new hide glue , date it and store in airtight jar. There are also different cuts Pianotek can help guide you

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Its not a bad idea to use a sanding stick , emory board or fine grit paper glued on a popsicle stick to lightly rough up the wood on the mortise walls to prep it for new felt and glue.  I have scraped with a new exacto blade but its not always going to get things off without cutting into the wood. I am taking on a key rebushing job this week. No way to tell what was used when . May even be original bushings and glue- the plate is a Badger from 1967

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2021 15:49
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Sounds like a possibility. That or some other contaminant.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 4:04:00 PM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Its not a bad idea to use a sanding stick , emory board or fine grit paper glued on a popsicle stick to lightly rough up the wood on the mortise walls to prep it for new felt and glue.  I have scraped with a new exacto blade but its not always going to get things off without cutting into the wood. I am taking on a key rebushing job this week. No way to tell what was used when . May even be original bushings and glue- the plate is a Badger from 1967

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2021 15:49
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Sounds like a possibility. That or some other contaminant.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 3:50:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Sounds like a possibility. That or some other contaminant.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

Way back in the late 1970s, and probably early 80s, Wurlitzer sold this to technicians to "fix" seizing flanges. The flange cloth they used was comparatively loose - expanding with high humidity, the wool fibers "grabbing" at the center pins. All those spinets with seized flanges - a real nightmare. They'd mix it with naphtha and dose the action. I bought some but stuck with repinning, or ProTek when that became available. The key bushing cloth was not particularly dense either.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2021 17:50
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Does anyone know who sold this product.? Seems like it was intended for 

use on pianos by its name. I couldn't find it on the Schaff or Pianotek websites.

--

Dave Conte, RPT, CCT

Dave Conte Piano Works

817-581-7321

dave@daveconte.com

www.daveconte.com

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 3:50:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Sounds like a possibility. That or some other contaminant.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------

...and there was the problem of 'creep' or just the possibility of the problem. Loosening keytops. traveling far from where it was applied, and out of its container.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2021 20:02
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Way back in the late 1970s, and probably early 80s, Wurlitzer sold this to technicians to "fix" seizing flanges. The flange cloth they used was comparatively loose - expanding with high humidity, the wool fibers "grabbing" at the center pins. All those spinets with seized flanges - a real nightmare. They'd mix it with naphtha and dose the action. I bought some but stuck with repinning, or ProTek when that became available. The key bushing cloth was not particularly dense either.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2021 17:50
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Does anyone know who sold this product.? Seems like it was intended for 

use on pianos by its name. I couldn't find it on the Schaff or Pianotek websites.

--

Dave Conte, RPT, CCT

Dave Conte Piano Works

817-581-7321

dave@daveconte.com

www.daveconte.com

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 3:50:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

Sounds like a possibility. That or some other contaminant.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: Dave Conte
Subject: RE: Hide glue not bonding

I recently discovered a can of "Action Treating Solution" buried at the back of a cabinet in the shop.
The label say Dimethyl Silicone. My guess is that this was what was used to treat the keybushings in an
effort to reduce friction. Overkill anyway since the bushings on this 7 year old SS D were over-eased so
much that they needed replacement.

Anyone think this might have made it difficult for the hide glue to stick? Maybe the only reason the Titebond
liquid hide glue held is because I cleaned the mortises with Acetone.

------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656

Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2021 09:14
From: David Weiss
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

HI Dave,

It sounds like you did everything right.  Probably something contaminated the wood, possibly a lubricant of some type.

In Bill Sprulock's articles on key bushing replacement he recommends coating the wood with a very thin hide glue before putting in the the key bushings.  This gives you better adherence.  Debra Legg also mentioned this in her post.

Its never fun to have to do a job twice,

------------------------------
David Weiss
Charlottesville VA
434-823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2021 09:49
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Hide glue not bonding

Hello, all.

I need some help to figure out why hide glue is not adhering to the balance
rail mortises on a 2011 Hamburg Steinway D.

Hide glue was used but did not hold. This was found when the keys were put back on the keyframe.
Many fell out.

This piano is in heavy use, and I think the previous tech over-eased the bushings to compound
the sloppy key problem.

Thinking the jar used to prepare the glue might have been contaminated by Teflon bushings that
had been in it (yes, I did wash it out) having left some residue that may have been stubborn, that
vessel was discarded, and a new jar was used. Glue prepared in it for a second set also did not
hold and the bushings were able to be pulled out dry by simply using fingers or tweezers.

The set I installed which failed was removed with steam only (which was probably mostly unnecessary),
with no wallpaper remover, although I had to use that to remove the original factory bushing cloth.

The ground hide glue was in an unopened bag from one of the parts houses. It looks like a bag Pianotek uses,
but nothing was written on it. Purified water was used (not distilled).

I have already spoken to Kent Webb about this, but he is likewise baffled as is Kluge.

Has anybody else had this happen? How did you solve it? Is anyone using/found an alternative
glue that can be easily removed using conventional methods?

Any help or sharing of experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dave Conte, RPT
The University of Tennessee
865-974-4885 Office
865-406-5156 UT Cell
817-307-5656 Personal Cell


------------------------------
Dave Conte
Owner
Knoxville TN
817-307-5656
------------------------------