PianoTech Archive

  • 1.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-17-2004 15:11 
    From "Alan Forsyth" <alanforsyth@fortune4.fsnet.co.uk>

Hello List and anonymous ones,

Carl Teplitski wrote;

>> "For some time now, I've been thinking of sending this post to the list ,
to see if there was a definitive answer . I've procrastinated, because I
thought it might be a dumb question.  What I would like to know, is this. Is
the tuning we hear on Rag- Time recordings, a special tuning, or
just a piano which happens to be badly out of tune." >>

Tis not a dumb question. There is an official way of tuning a piano
honky-tonk style. I meant to reply to others who asked in a previous thread
(out of tune) what the 6+ 6- method was when I mentioned it. It's what I
call the 6 up 6 down method.

You tune to normal equal temperament, but when you tune the unisons you
raise the right string by 6 Hz (beats) and lower the left string by 6 Hz.
This is starting at A440. As you progress downwards you must gradually
decrease the out of tune beat rates progressively so that by the time you
get to A220 the right string should be 3 beats up and the left string 3
beats down. So on and so forth. Leave the bass alone where you have bichords
and monochords. Going upwards from A440 you must increase the beat rate
progressively so that you double the beat rate for every octave; by A880 the
right string will be tuned 12 beats sharp and the left string 12 beats flat,
and so on. Octaves must be tuned perfect. You should actually try it, but it
is by no means easy.

I repeat what I wrote in a previous post in the  "out of tune" thread about
2 weeks ago;

"If anyone has had to tune a piano for Ragtime music, the 6+,6- method, you
might have experienced that extraordinary secondary wave that looms up from
somewhere when you play block chords. It is actually quite intoxicating. I
have no idea of the physics that is going on here that produces this
phenomenon."

AF


  • 2.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-17-2004 15:45 
    From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

>
You tune to normal equal temperament, but when you tune the unisons you
 >raise the right string by 6 Hz (beats) and lower the left string by 6 Hz.
 >This is starting at A440.... A220 the right string should be 3 beats up
 >and the left string 3 beats down... by A880 the right string will be tuned
 >12 beats sharp and the left string 12 beats flat, and so on.

This should be fairly easy with an ETD. Tune all middle strings at pitch.
Then set the ETD to +6 Hz and tune all right strings, set to -6 Hz and tune 
all left strings, or vise versa.

Or so it seems to me.



Regards,

Jon Page, piano technician
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass.
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  • 3.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-17-2004 16:13 
    From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>

Hi Jon,
Do you mean +/- 6 cents?
You couldn't go +/- 6 Hz, up and down. Or are you just meaning C3 and up?
Best,
John M. Ross
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 4.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-17-2004 17:18 
    From "jason kanter" <jkanter@rollingball.com>

The way I interpret the guidelines is this:
All the middle strings of all the trichords are to be tuned in ET based on A-440; all the left strings to be tuned in ET based on A-434; and all the right-hand strings to be tuned in ET based on A-446. This produces the +6,-6 beats at A4.
So, following Jon's suggestion, we would strip mute all the three-string unisons and tune all the center strings as usual. Then we would set the ETD to A-434 (how to do this varies with device) and tune all the left-hand strings, and finally set the ETD to A-446 and tune all the right-hand strings.
|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
jason kanter * piano tuning 
bellevue, wa * 425 562 4127 * cell 425 831 1561
orcas island * 360 376 2799
|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||

  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 5.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-17-2004 19:18 
    From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

>Do you mean +/- 6 cents? You couldn't go +/- 6 Hz, up and down.

My reply was to
Alan Forsyth's description of the tuning
and how an ETD might facilitate its accomplishment.

+/-6 c @ A4 would produce about 3bps by having the strings
~438.5, 440, 441.5; respectively. (6c being ~1.5bps)

+/-6 Bps would produce about 12 bps (434, 440, 446)
which would be a rather vibrant sounding note.

Weather or not a 12 bps spread @ A4 is desirable
is up for speculation but I will take Alan's word for it.
It seems a little much especially at the top treble.

Has anyone else tried it?

Regards,

Jon Page, piano technician
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass.
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  • 6.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-18-2004 04:15 
    From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

Here's another view of the tuning scheme for the topic.
I received this from a lurker who doesn't want to take
the heat of proposing such blasphemy.

 >The ragtime composers and performers I've tuned for greatly
 >prefer a full bore Well Temperament. That is, until they play
 >in Modified Meantone. Then they feel like they've really come home
 >...especially likes a tuning that has 26 cent thirds in Gb, Db and Ab,
 >(and 23 cents in B) I think that is important evidence in regarding
 >Ragtime/Honky-Tonk tuning.

RBI's instead of RBU's. (Rapidly Beating Intervals instead of Rapidly 
Beating Unisons)
In other words, a dissonant unison is not necessary to produce the harmonic 
tension.
Not sacrificing tone for experssion.

Regards from the Radical Edge,

Jon Page, piano technician
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass.
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  • 7.  Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune

    Posted 05-18-2004 15:58 
    From "Isaac OLEG" <oleg-i@noos.fr>

I understand that one can use an EDT to tune one string, but, particyularely
for a honky tonk tuning, the effect may be generated and driven by ear, it
is not that difficult really and is most enjoyeable, once you have get
accainted to the strange tone.

I did not try to make that 6 hz up/down difference,  semm very high to me,
but I will try someday. Agreed that the bass can be leaved alone (blended
with the rest in fact)

Best regards.

Isaac Oleg
-----Message d'origine-----
De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la part
de jason kanter
Envoy? : mardi 18 mai 2004 01:18
? : Pianotech
Objet : Re: Ragtime/Honky Tonk tuning, was out of tune


The way I interpret the guidelines is this:
All the middle strings of all the trichords are to be tuned in ET based on
A-440; all the left strings to be tuned in ET based on A-434; and all the
right-hand strings to be tuned in ET based on A-446. This produces the +6,-6
beats at A4.
So, following Jon's suggestion, we would strip mute all the three-string
unisons and tune all the center strings as usual. Then we would set the ETD
to A-434 (how to do this varies with device) and tune all the left-hand
strings, and finally set the ETD to A-446 and tune all the right-hand
strings.
|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
jason kanter * piano tuning
bellevue, wa * 425 562 4127 * cell 425 831 1561
orcas island * 360 376 2799
|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||

  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message