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Chickering with Clattering Keys

  • 1.  Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-26-2020 22:52
    Somehow, I got this baby grand Chickering piano.  French leg style, ivory keys.  Nice little music box.  I tried to consign this to a dealer in LA, whose clients are musicians and producers.  He was concerned because when you let go of a key rapidly, it makes a clattering sound.  He couldn't accept the piano with this problem.  I went up there yesterday, and found that it does indeed have a louder than normal sound, which I originally thought was from hard knuckles.  The knuckles are practically new and very supple.  What I realized the sound is coming from is the keys themselves.  When the hammer returns, it forces the wippen against the back rail felt, and then the front of the key bounces up a little bit.  This is making the clattering sound.  What to do?  I didn't have much time, so my first thought was to glue-size the balance rail holes so there's more friction, and it would keep the keys from bouncing.  Alas, it wasn't working as I hoped.  So, I turned the keypins.  OH NO!  Burn me at the stake, but that's what I did.  I made every bit of clearance in the key bushing as close as I could without making too much friction.  It did work, but..  I'm going to have to reclaim the piano (he still didn't want it), so I'm looking for a better solution.  I remember in some old catalogs there was a balance rail pin with a spring on it.  Never seen or tried them.  Somehow, the keys have to NOT rise off the balance rail, or they make this clattering sound.  I'm going to straighten out the balance rail pins when I get back to it.  I'm open to any ideas.  Thanks in advance.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    service@accutonepianoservice.com
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  • 2.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Posted 09-26-2020 23:25
    Is the back rail felt old and compressed? Glued at the back edge? Under felt?

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 3.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-26-2020 23:33
    Thanks Jon. The felt is quite hard. Glued on the forward edge, sort of. It's not loose in the middle. No underfelt. I"m reluctant to change it because it will mean a complete redo of the action frame felt, leveling, etc. Difficult to get the exact same thickness as original. The felt is in good shape, not worm-eaten or anything. I don't see how it could have been much different when it left the factory. Other than the balance rail holes, nothing appears worn.
    Paul




  • 4.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Posted 09-27-2020 00:08
    I had a customer with a noisy back rail on a M&H. I cut the rear of the back rail loose to no avail. Changing the felt made the difference. There is only one road to go down.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 5.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-27-2020 00:21
    Thanks very much for the suggestions. I'll tackle it when I get it back in the shop.
    Paul


    Jon Page:

    I had a customer with a noisy back rail on a M&H. I cut the rear of the back rail loose to no avail. Changing the felt made the difference. There is only one road to go down.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com





  • 6.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Posted 09-27-2020 10:40
    I think I recall that these are noisy actions to begin with. The rep springs might be too strong which forces the key down harder too. Change the back rail felt.
    It's a tough job but some's gotta do it.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 7.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-26-2020 23:54
    Paul

    I agree with Jon The keys are bouncing off the back rail. You need to solve that problem. I realize this will take a lot of other work, but it might be worth it in the long run.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 8.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-27-2020 12:22
    Paul, 

    While you are at it, and since you will have to address it, secure
    the balance rail punchings so they don't fly off and blow them clean
    with low pressure compressed air and then replace the balance rail
    cloth punchings. Also, make sure the key upstop clearance is minimum
    possible without inhibiting the keys. We had this problem with a lot of
    bounce on new Baldwin pianos late in the company production. Lowering
    the key stop made a huge difference by restricting much room the keys
    were allowed to bounce. Also clean the whip cushions and soften the 
    jack return cushions by needling or adding some profelt or actual fabric
    softener (this will require dry time). All these things contribute to noise
    even if they are not the actual cause. Of course if the key holes are loose
    they will have to be addressed as will the key bushings. 

    Good luck

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    Dave Conte
    Owner
    North Richland Hills TX
    817-581-7321
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  • 9.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-27-2020 13:45
    Agreed...usually not just one thing but a compilation of noise points. I would use VS-Profelt on the key bushings WITHOUT cauls. Let them swell (and soften) and they will return to a little better than they were. Also, as already pointed out, the BR holes need to be "tight" (tighter than most people think).  Also, VS-Profelt on the whip cushions, and it wouldn't hurt to zig-zag it all over the back rail cloth. It will do no harm. A drop or two or three on each BR punching will also not hurt anything. Altogether you may get results without having to replace (for the moment).

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 10.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-27-2020 16:23
    Paul, other than mentioning the ivory keys, you didn't say how old the piano is.We can assume it's pre-WWII? If it has all original parts it's likely there isn't any moving part that isn't looser than it should be. As mentioned, even if the keys are making the loudest sound, the action is probably quite noisy. There are a lot of good suggestions above but even the shortcuts involve quite a bit of labor. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is tightening all the screws (to add another 176+ steps).

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 11.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Member
    Posted 09-27-2020 20:25
    A serial number would help to pin-point the year . It may have been out of the Rochester Aeolian factory that was making Chickerings, Knabes, Mason & Hamlins. Try cutting out a section of the backrail felt and soften it up with needles and fabric softener to get the crust out. I think you could get a new back rail felt from Jurgen to match the original thickness. If you have pully or loose keys at the balance rail you may need to install inserts. Rep springs could be too strong and the key bushings should be snug and not hard with old glue

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 12.  RE: Chickering with Clattering Keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-27-2020 22:04
    It will probably be a couple weeks before I get this piano back. Thanks for all the great suggestions. Stay tuned..
    Paul


    James Kelly
    A serial number would help to pin-point the year . It may have been out of the Rochester Aeolian factory that was making Chickerings, Knabes, Mason & Hamlins. Try cutting out a section of the backrail felt and soften it up with needles and fabric softener to get the crust out. I think you could get a new back rail felt from Jurgen to match the original thickness. If you have pully or loose keys at the balance rail you may need to install inserts. Rep springs could be too strong and the key bushings should be snug and not hard with old glue

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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