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soundboard separating from ribs

  • 1.  soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 10 days ago
    Hardman upright, soundboard separating from ribs, about 2" long separations in several places, accessible from back.

    Considering using technique described by Igrec of drilling holes in ribs, from the back, to draw soundboard against them.

    It seems to me that the worse that could happen is that the screws don't catch and the gaps get filled with glue instead: not a bad outcome for this old and worn-out piano.

    At present, the separations don't seem to be affecting the sound.

    Advice appreciated, and thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Darren

    the repair suggested by Igrec is very good.  But, if, as you say, the separation isn't effecting the sound, I would leave well enough alone, especially on an old piano like that.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Edited by Peter Grey 9 days ago
    I have done this many times on old uprights. 1/16" pilot hole all the way through, then 9/64" hole just through the rib, countersink...1 1/4" drywall screw works great. Don't forget to work the adhesive in with an artists pallet knife.

    I usually wait for consistently DRY weather before doing it though.

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Peter, are you concerned if the screw goes beyond the soundboard, i.e., penetrates through the soundboard? It seems that this wouldn't matter, although Igrec implies that we don't want to go through the soundboard, if I understand correctly.
    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Don,
    I have effected a repair exactly as Peter describes many times. If you are really worried about the screws showing, just remove them after the glue has set. You can plug the holes, too, but on such a piano, the effort may not be warranted.

    If there are separated joints behind the braces, you can transfer marks with small straight edges from the ribs and draw the position on the brace. You’ll need long bits to go through the brace and then into ribs and soundboard.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 6.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Willem, I appreciate the comment and understand where you're coming from.

    Owners have made a commitment to keep this piano going and I respect that, so my thinking is that at minimum, the soundboard separation needs to be halted.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    If you have access, you may get stronger pressure using a screw from the front. Lath screws are excellent for this. Try to blow the sawdust out of the gap before gluing.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Thank you, Ed. I'll see what I can do from the front.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Don,

    On an old upright like this I am rarely concerned about the screw protruding through the SB. On a grand...yes, as this will be seen and is not pretty.

    Going from the front is "good" since you are screwing into more meat of the rib, however it is easy to make a mistake on location and is just complicated on an upright. I usually do it all from the back.

    If you are concerned about the screw thing, simply explain to the owner that in a situation like this, our options are limited. Ideally we would dismantle the entire thing and do it all "correctly" from the front...but that is unrealistic, therefore we may need to make some compromises. To ensure that you get maximum bite for drawing the board back to the rib you really need to go all the way through. DAMHIK.

    There re also ways of wedging against the plate but that also has its limits.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Edited by Don Dalton 9 days ago
    Peter,
    I understand everything except "DAMHIK."

    . . . .

    OK, got it-- "don't ask me how I know."

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Don't Ask Me How I Know.

    Best,
    Jim





  • 12.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Don D. wrote: "At present, the separations don't seem to be affecting the sound."

    As Wim suggested, why not just leave well enough alone. If it is not currently affecting sound, then why do anything now. If, some years down the road, if the prehistoric thing is still standing and someone wants to throw money at it, someone can always super-glue and duct-tape the thing back together.

    IMHO, it is bad enough that people hang on to these shadow-of-what-they-were-originally worn-out bad sounding and bad playing relics - it's worse to dump money into it that could otherwise be spent on a newer replacement instrument.


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Depending on the width of separation, the board should be pressed back to the rib prior to drilling to maintain hole alignment. I use square drive pocket hole screws and the counter bore. Drill a pilot hole through the rib and partially into the board. Insert a pallet knife between the board and rib to act as a stop for the counter bore. Glue may not be necessary. Install a ⅝" pocket hole screw. You might need a small spacer/washer to prevent the screw breaking thru the top of the board, depending on the thickness of the board. Mcfeely's has a large assortment of square drive screws. I wish all screws were square drive. I replace worn action bracket hold-down screws with s/d.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Jon,
    With the strings in? How would you press the soundboard back to the ribs?

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Terry,
    I've noticed in the piano tech world that there a lot of differing opinion about a lot of things, which is to be expected. I've noticed in particular that there are two camps regarding old pianos. One camp says, with so many good pianos out there for a reasonable price, or even free, why bother with the clunkers? For a while I switched over to that camp, but the more I work on older pianos, the more I fall into the other camp: these older pianos were generally very well made and deserve some loving care. However, I've turned down a few mold-infested pianos which really are junkers. There's a limit to everything and judgment is called for.

    In this instance, as mentioned, the owners are committed to preserving the piano and have invested in a rebuilt action, although for the life of me I can't understand why it's so badly out of regulation. The regulation should be addressed first, and my recommendation to the client is to regulate the piano and then, at some point in the future, address the separations.

    I've also noticed that people become attached to pianos, almost as if they were parts of the family. You wouldn't just get rid of your old worn-out dog and go for a new puppy, would you? I see acknowledging the customer's attachment as part of the business, although yes, judgment is called for and no one would want to mislead a customer into keeping a piano that truly is for the junkyard.

    And then there's the matter of economics: if a church gets a donated grand piano that's in generally good shape but is an old clunker and that's all they can afford (i.e., free) then that's the way it is. A lot of different needs out there, a lot of different circumstances.

    I appreciate the friendly responses!

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Don D. wrote: "I've noticed in particular that there are two camps regarding old pianos."

    I agree very much with what you stated. As I am not beyond nursing along a piano that is past its time where the owners have formed a firm attachment. And no, I would not just get rid of my old worn-out dog. Murphy is a 9-year-old psychotic dog that has very few redeeming qualities, but he is our old psychotic dog and we will take care of him until the end.

    I do recognize the attachment thing and do have some respect for that with my customers. It does sound like the owners of the subject piano have that attachment thing here. I think sometimes owners of old worn-out pianos simply do not realize that there are very nice inexpensive pianos available. I guess I'm just suggesting that we always at least present those kind of alternatives to our customers.

    It does get me though that people will routinely throw out old worn-out hockey skates because their son needs a good pair of skates to learn to play hockey with. Dad would not go out on the golf course with old wooden woods - he needs the new titanium "woods" to play well with. These kind of examples go on and on. I wonder why so often it does not seem to apply to pianos. How many parents (big house and Lexus in the driveway - they do have SOME money) would never send their son out to play with free ice skates they found at a garage sale, yet it is a "great deal" when they come home with a free piano for their child to learn to play piano on.

    Okay, I've said my peace. I feel better now.  :-)


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Don.

    The reason you are able to repair those old uprights is because you've learned how to evaluate the instrument from top to bottom. You know from experience what's going to work, and won't, and how much it's going to cost to make the repairs. You even know, to some extend, the end results of your repairs.

    But there are many techs out there, some with limited ability and/or experience, who think they can fix anything, and delve into the repairs. They don't know, or realize, that the reason the action is out of regulation is because the hammer butt leather is totally worn out, and when they adjust lost motion, it brings the spoon closer to the dampers, which now increases touch weight as the spoon contacts the lever sooner. Etc. Etc.

    That is why repairing old pianos is so tricky, and expensive. And of there is one thing I've learned after 45 years in this business, there is no "quick fix" to a repair. I can't "just make it work", for a few bucks. I would rather step away from a piano than try to do a little, because then the customer expects the thing to work perfectly, even if they way they understand that it won't.

    The other thing a lot of technicians should not try to repair old pianos is because even "back then", there were good quality pianos being made, and poor quality pianos. But some techs think that ALL old pianos are good.

    That's why, in general, I stay away from them now. They are just not worth my time and effort.


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Edited by Don Dalton 8 days ago
    Willem,

    Older pianos can be time-consuming. For me, a lot of that time is unpaid, and that's OK for now.


    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    I have done this, it works. You can also span the back of the piano with boards and use wedges to put pressure against ribs until the glue sets. No holes. Hold the boards in place by strapping them to the frame.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 20.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    With strings in? It's possible that a jig can be made to do this .... maybe.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 9 days ago
    Across the back if the piano, wedge the ribs to the soundboard (ribs are in the back)

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 22.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Don,

    I think you've got the right idea here...give attention to the action FIRST and then deal with the soubdboard. By then, it may be mid-winter in VT and you will have no problem drawing board and ribs back together.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Edited by Don Dalton 8 days ago
    Jeffrey,
    So you push the ribs to meet the soundboard? And then the ribs spring back to original position, taking the separated soundboard (now glued to ribs) with them? Very interesting.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Uh, hold on a minute.  Some soundboard panels curl away from the rib as the glue joint fails.  This makes the process of making that panel curl back towards the rib a problem/challenge unless you use screws through the ribs.  In addition to this, there's still a layer of the old glue at the site of the glue joint.  Without screws the possibility of failure in the same place is higher than if you were to use screws to really hold things together physically along with the application of a new layer of glue.  I've put a zillion screws in one soundboard and have had a tremendous response as a result.  The additional mass (additional screws) overall didn't seem to factor in as the improvement of tone became apparent.  Black and Decker makes a twisted stamped metal bit that drills a hole for a shouldered counter sunk screw that works like a charm.  You want the hole in the rib to be large enough to let the screw pass.  I've managed to not pre-drill any hole in the panel  ........  for the most part.  Slather the failed glue joint with glue prior to drawing the two together and clean up the oozage afterward with a damp rag.  It goes pretty fast and in about an hour I can install close to forty of them.  Lar

    ------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    503-310-6965
    Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    I still prefer screwing down from the soundboard into the rib, as you will see in older German grand pianos. An extra long drill bit lets you drill a pilot hole through the rib from the back, close to the back bars if needed. Drill through the soundboard and you know exactly where the screw needs to go.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 3 days ago
    sorry, posted too quick.  Use the holes, and wires, but you can use wedges with the boards to pull the wires pulling the sound board back to the ribs, Adding wedges if needed so the ribs are pushed against the soundboard when pulling it back.   You can also wedge under the wires. This all prevents putting in screws.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Just leave it alone until you hear a rattle. If determined to repair before trouble : Board approx 3/8”, rib maybe 1”, pilot hole not all way through board, countersink , cut end off 1 1/4” drywall screw to correct length, spread yellow glue with feeler gauge between rib and board, pull up just tight. Don’t over pull. If worried about not pulling up, just file point on screw.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 28.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Sometimes the thing to do is get a new pup and let Rover sleep on the porch. I have recommended that people keep their heirloom and get a low mileage newer piano for the purposes of making music. Saddling a child with a marginally working piano to learn on is unfair to the child or even the occasional adult player. I also suggest they visit the piano store to hear what a piano is supposed to sound like (when not in a sentimental haze).

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Cut end off 1 1/2” dry wall screw....Sorry!

    Sent from my iPhone

    > On Jul 10, 2019, at 10:15 AM, Tommy Black <bigeartb@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    > Just leave it alone until you hear a rattle. If determined to repair before trouble : Board approx 3/8”, rib maybe 1”, pilot hole not all way through board, countersink , cut end off 1 1/4” drywall screw to correct length, spread yellow glue with feeler gauge between rib and board, pull up just tight. Don’t over pull. If worried about not pulling up, just file point on screw.
    >
    > Sent from my iPhone




  • 30.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    Edited by David Love 8 days ago
    Yes fix it. Especially if it's easily accessible. It's a quick repair. Separated ribs will make noise at some humidity level and with some frequencies. It's inevitable.

    Mario's or Jon's methods are fine.

    Mine is to drill a hole through the back of the rib inserting a then steel (feeler gauges work well for this) between the rib and the panel so the drill stops at the panel without penetrating. Use a 15/64" bit so you can plug later with a 7/32" hammer shank dowel. Work plenty of glue into the space (feeler gauges are good for that too) and use a screw with a washer or use thick card stock punchings to protect the rib and let the screws bite into the panel without penetrating all the way through. Tighten the screw to pull the panel back to the rib. You should see some squeeze out. The punchings can be stacked to compensate for the length of the screw if it's too long. Allow enough of the screw to penetrate the panel to grab it securely but not enough to go all the way through or just slightly through. That way you don't have to trim the screw. If you do happen to penetrate a bit too far that's fine. You can do a small cosmetic repair later if you want.

    When the glue is dry remove the screw and with the same drill inserted into the hole in the rib, drill into the panel  slightly but not enough to penetrate the panel completely. Glue in a dowel and cut flush to the rib.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 8 days ago
    So it's settled. I'll advise on taking care of the regulation first and then the soundboard, or maybe I'll just do it all at once since I'm not charging much for the soundboard repair.

    I like the idea of doweling the holes to finish things up.

    I'll experiment with using screws from the front, as overall if makes sense to push the board into the ribs rather than pulling it in. It may end up being a hybrid job....

    Lots of old clunkers in Vermont; churches and town halls filled with them (and lots of old churches here!) and homes, too. Almost can't walk down the street without bumping into one. I finished an 1875 square grand and turned around and there's another one-- in a church. That's life.

    I was unsure of what to do and now I know what I'll do. Thank you all.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 6 days ago
    Hi, All - One approach that I've adopted from the guitar world is to use a ball-end steel treble string for a guitar (such as an high-E string .012" etc), tightened by a guitar tuning machine. A tiny hole can be drilled down through the soundboard and centerline of the rib, just large enough for the string. the hole in the brace can be larger, to accommodate the winding of the string, and also because a .012+ drill bit is pretty tiny/ delicate itself! The string is inserted up through the soundboard/rib, and wound onto a guitar tuning machine, which is used to tighten the string and draw the soundboard/rib together. I use a bushing and washer underneath the ball end of the string. The tuning machine is mounted on a block.  I use artists pallete knives to get glue under braces, the kind with the offset handle. I've some that I've ground down to a feather tip, and bent around into all sorts of shapes. etc.
    JF

    --
    John Fabel  IDSA
    Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Education 
    for Equity & Sustainability
    > Program Lead, Greentown Learn, Western MA Manufacturing Initiative
    > Principal, I / D / S Consulting <    Innovation, Design & Strategy
    > Adjunct Assistant Professor,  Dept of Environmental Conservation
    / BCT
      
    University of Massachusetts/Amherst
    413-695-1380   text
    120 Pulpit Hill Rd.
    Amherst, MA 01002 USA





  • 33.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 6 days ago
    Or piece of pinblock material with tuning pin and piano wire. I use not less then# 16. It develops really effective pressure.I thought this known for every body

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 34.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 5 days ago
    http://wholesalecabinetcomponents.com/items/quick-screws-fasteners/phillips-drive-screws/round-washer-head-large/SG-9150-detail.htm

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 6 days ago
    BTW this is the type of screw I use to pull the panel to the rib.  I usually add a cardboard punching to protect the rib from marks and also to adjust the length depending on the thickness of the rib.  I don't really want much if any of the screw protruding through the panel.  


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 6 days ago
    David,
    What do you call that type of screw? It seems that you can dispense with countersinking the hole in the rib, thereby saving a step. 


    Joe Wiencek





  • 37.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 5 days ago
    Here's one I don't see posted. Credit Dale Erwin
    Most likely the old glue is hide glue. You need to use hide glue. The new glue will melt the old glue.
    That being said, a thin mixture of hot hide glue. Take a cleaned out plastic Elmers glue bottle with the round tip. Cut the stop out of the tip if possible. Fill with thin hot hide glue after
    Drilling a few holes in the back of the rib but not through the soundboard.
    Squirt the glue through the holes in the rib with pressure. The tip should seal against the rib and glue should run out the sides of the rib. Immediately insert a screw or screws and tighten. Remove screws and dowel or plug.
    Obviously there are other methods to power inject the glue and thinned cold hide glue can be used because you are mostly re-energizing the glue that is there

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    I don't think it's necessary to use hide glue and if you do cold hide glue is probably fine.  I doubt whether an injection of even hot hide glue would reactivate the old glue that's in there, in fact I think it's best to use a thin steel of some sort (feeler gauges are good for this) to remove as much of the old and loose glue that remains in there.  Personally I wouldn't use hot hide because of the relatively short working time should some thing happen--like the screw clamp doesn't bite or something and you need to replace with a longer screw (has happened).  I've made repairs with Titebond without any problem.  Injecting glue is fine but I would still insert a thin piece of metal to spread the glue as widely as possible in the open joint.  Working glue in there with a palette knife or thin piece of steel also works fine but you do want enough in there to produce some squeeze out.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    Yeah,, that's right. Work fast. I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
    I watched Dale do this. I thought it worked extremely well and was quick. Glue compatibility is important in repairing furniture of this age.
    If you are worried about the old glue, squirt some water through first to aid the glue traveling.
    If you have ever scraped the old glue from a soundboard rim or belt sanded an upright side board after the veneer peeled off, You know there is a lot of glue still in the wood.  It doesn't take much and the heat works for you just as much as the moisture. You can heat the joint and board up if you want.
    I rebuilt Dale's soundboard press when I first started in his shop. I have pressed up a number of boards. There is a lot of glue in those joints.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    Really, all you are doing here is stopping the board from buzzing.
    If you do want to go high tech,, I just thought of using a steamer. Using a nozzle, blow steam through the hole. Since you are moving things from the inside to the outside, you eliminate the pushing of dirt and old glue into the joint area. Just using a knife to separate the board and rib will push stuff slightly under the rib and it won't seat properly, much more so, pushing glue in from the outside will cause the same. Not good in my opinion

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    There are many good ways to do this. Complexity varies. The original repair question was in a home service call. I suggested a flat screw from the soundboard into the rib because it will pull the board down tight with or without glue and can be completed in one short visit. Screw down the board and tune the piano, and the screw is out-of-sight inside the piano. CA glue could also be used.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    Good advice Ed. It seems that the CA glue has a compatibility with hide glue. Have you found that to be true?
    I had a set of ivory tops that the ones that had come off and the wafers were still perfectly white. I used a medium thick CA from Satellite City. I sanded them smooth and buffed them. The heat from the buffing would lift a tail in the center and a little CA and buff. Boy did they look nice. They are still firmly attached 2 years later

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    If one is concerned about fast set time with hot hide glue, a little salt or urea (to taste) will give a little more working time without appreciably affecting the strength.

    Same as if one was using it for rebushing keys with Bushmaster and single caul (factory) method.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    Edited by David Love 4 days ago
    I never said it didn't work, I said I didn't think it was necessary to use hide glue just because there was hide glue there originally. I added that using *hot* glue was probably not necessary either, cold hide glue would be just as effective and, as to what Peter suggested about just adding urea to hot glue to create more working time, cold hide glue simple has added urea. For me, for doing this type of repair, especially in the field, a glue pot is way more trouble than it's worth.  It's not that difficult a repair. Most any type of wood glue will work.

    Moreover, if there's a concern about compatibility, I can't think of any two glues that are more incompatible than CA and any water based glue. So if the argument is that old hide glue and Titebond are incompatible it doesn't make sense that CA and hide glue wouldn't be.  That being said I glue loose ivories with thin ca glue all the time. But there working time is of no issue and avoiding using water based glues with ivory means you don't have to clamp the ivory with a top plate to prevent the ivory from warping.

    The idea of gluing a rib back to the soundboard panel means you need some open time to get the clamping in place (in this case using a screw).  I would not use CA for this type of repair.  Hot hide glue is fine but thinned hide glue (thinned with water) does not have the same strength that would like for a stress joint.

    And yes I have scraped old glue from the inner rim of a piano before.



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 4 days ago
    I have used the Franklin Liquid Hide Glue that can be had at hardware stores with good success and no failures.  My MO is to bring my glue pot to the job, put water in it, and set the plastic bottle in it.  Warmed, it will be nice and runny.  I prep the joints, drill for screws, etc.  Screws will be turned part of the way in but not cross the glue line.  I take my ground down pallet knife and work the glue into the joint, then immediately tighten the screws.  I get a nice squeeze out which I clean up immediately with a wet paper towel.

    The liquid hide glue is compatible with the old glue and leaves a nice clean repair.

    Will Truitt

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 3 days ago
    Thank you David. I always appreciate your posts.
    My visualization or modeling is different than yours. Probably because of different experiences and learned techniques. I see about 3 seconds of open time from when you finish applying the glue through the hole and the cordless drill sinks the screw. Of course the screw is temporary and you dowel it for cosmetics.
    HOWEVER!!! Back to what you said about glue compatibility. That CA and water based would be far apart. My first thought was that it was designed as a liquid suture. We are mostly water and gluing a bleeding wound  together would require it work with water. I think it is water that acts an accelerator. Susan Kline's rice crispies
    Then I realized it's acrylic and acrylic paints are water based. There is some design in the glue that it works with water. I thought the same thing as you until I saw your post and considered avenues I hadn't thought of before. Thank you

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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
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  • 47.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 3 days ago
    There are so many different circumstances and conditions of pianos!
    A repair that is right in one situation may be pure incompetence in another.
    It helps if we think about the working qualities of our materials, and consider what will serve best.

    Example: Thin CA has low surface tension, it likes to travel into tight places, almost aggressively.
    In a class in Tucson it was recommended, in less than optimal rebuilding circumstances, to turn over a grand piano and run a bead of medium thin CA along all the joints on the bottom of the piano, including soundboard to rim, with the intent of filling and reinforcing any failing joints. Years ago in a different class the instructor recommended rotating a console piano from bottom to side to top to side to bottom, running a bead of CA along all joints. (Just once I've heard the sound of a soundboard coming loose at the top edge in a console piano, so I understand the reasoning/caution when "upgrading" a console piano.)
    In a "last hope" situation with a buzzing rib in an old grand piano, I drilled small holes where I had access through the soundboard, just to the top of the rib, placed wedges between the rib and beam, squirted CA through the holes and tapped the wedges tight. To be sure I then sprayed "kicker" along the rib. Paper on the floor in case of drips! The same buzzing rib done in my shop during restringing and refinishing would have been repaired differently, possibly with no holes at all and liquid hide glue.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 48.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 2 days ago
    OK  Three seconds of open time would not be adequate for me.  But maybe I'm slow.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 49.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 2 days ago
    Heating cold hide glue is not really necessary.  it can thicken over time to the point where a bit of water can be added to return it to the right viscosity.  If one wants to use a premix hide glue that is designed to be heated try this product.

    https://www.rockler.com/old-brown-glue

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 50.  RE: soundboard separating from ribs

    Posted 2 days ago
    It is not necessary to heat the cold hide glue, but it makes it nice and thin, and easy to work into the joint with a pallet knife.


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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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