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WNG versus Steinway frame.

  • 1.  WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-20-2019 12:48
    Obviously WNG parts on WNG rail is better engineering solution than WNG parts onSteinway tubular frame. But how to handle the explanation to the customers ?

    Alexander Brusilovsky


  • 2.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-20-2019 15:09
    Servicing S&S frame actions either takes way more time than servicing rational stacks, or never gets done. Never gets done is the default. Never gets done is a tonal issue.  Voicing issues are often issues with mating on any frame. On-site, with S&S frames, when this work gets done, it mostly gets done quickly, in a way that doesn't help voicing as it should...especially alignment isues.  S&S stack on-site service simply costs more.

    The other path, is simply to charge more, significantly more, for an action which includes an S&S tubular brass frame, and charge more for the servicing, because really good on-site service of the stack takes more time to do well. I mean, as S&S is so happy to tell us, its a premium product. Charge the frame out as a premium product. 

    Make it financially attractive to make the move to the WNG stack when you bid the job.  You can practically buy an entire WNG action, shanks, whips and letoffrail and the for pretty close to what I used to charge for restoring just the soldered S&S frame...no whips or shanks...just frame. If you explain this, and price it as such, only a true believer who has bought the speil, hook line and sinker, will balk at lower cost, and easier to service and voicing of a WNG frame.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 3.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-21-2019 16:38
    Jim, thanks for great explanation.
    One of my concern are customers who believe it is not Steinway if it has not Steinway parts. WNG on tubular frame has same design as Steinway wooden parts, only different material and color. So if ignore fact of different manufacturer for those who are crazy by only Steinway parts it is quite acceptable. More difficult with WNG on WNG. It is completely different design.Any suggestions? Thanks!!!!
    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 4.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-21-2019 18:08
    I would stick with the cost angle, because that's one of the only things that will overcome the "if its not a steinway its not a steinway" hokum. Money talks. If its made clear that Steinway, being a high end piano, requires high end prices, they will either decide to put their money where their mouth is, and pay for the arcane tubular rail system and all it attendent associated costs, or consider more cost effective (and from our point of view, efficient) solutions.  Remember, that they are considering purchasing two things with this action work:

    1- your work and expertise
    2- they are purchasing the name on the fallboard. If they own a Steinway, they are into the name on the fallboard. The name on the fallboard confers status above all, and connection to imaginary celebrities. Status and celebrity cost a lot of money.

    As technicians, we almost always facilitate achieving said status on our backs, on the cheap, as the devoted artisan.

    You might also point out, that with the tubular rail system, the rails themselves, new or otherwise are, or should never be guaranteed by you. The requirements of the design, specifically shoving a relatively hard to dimension to metal working precision, wooden dowel, into a metal extrusion, whose interior is not precisely machined, cannot, in the physical world, be controlled beyond certain tolerances. New rails split and dowels shift, sometimes in the first years. Ask me how many times we had this happen. Steinway will not stand behind them, and certainly will not stand behind the major ancillary work replacing them requires. They fail, not because of anything we can control, even by our best efforts, but because the design exceeds the limits of the materials. Tell them failed new tubular rails, and the work needed to repair them, which is major, are their responsibility, beyond the rebuild costs. Repeat, not just the rails but all the attendant work entailed in replacing the rails.

    As far as "its not a Steinway", I personally don't seek these customers anymore...they are a pain in ass. They have bought the BS, and will constantly expect miracles where there are none to be had. They also will never pony up the funds to treat the instrument the way it needs to be treated. I find many, not all, but many S&S customers not worth having...simply because they want the BS, but do not want to pay for it. There are some Steinway owner folks who are a pleasure, and I keep these. But the fraught ones, the ones that buy the "its not a Steinway" BS, the ones that then expect non-existent realities to emerge from their pianos, are not customers I really want to be tied to...not worth it, and I always end up losing money on them...always.  


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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 5.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-21-2019 18:17
    Well, telephones used to be attached to the wall with wires too. Shrug. 
    This is an issue that is going to take a long time to sort out.
    In some ways I'm sympathetic with Steinway. Their grands distinguish themselves in part by their touch, specifically, at the point of let off; providing that the regulation is set up just right, which as Jim points out can be problematic on old action frames.
    If the WNG system can duplicate that touch, then there is a strong argument to be made, if not, then there is a pretty big tradeoff that must be considered.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 6.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-21-2019 19:34
    Jim,

    👍👍

    One could also simply tell them to send it to SS and let them do it. When they see THAT cost...phew!

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 7.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-21-2019 20:49
    Jim, thank you again . Seems you thought a lot on the subject. I hope it was painless.
    Thanks!

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 8.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-21-2019 21:56
    Steve,  I have to disagree with what you said above.  First,  I completely agree that the feel at letoff is the defining aspect of a great feeling action. Where I disagree, is to say that the arcane tubular brass rail stack is the cause of that feel. This claim is part of S&S's BS factory. None of the Steinway's I have met in service or in the shop have produced this feel. There in not some innate transcendent un-quantifiable wonderfulness of the stack. Plus, the geometry of the S&S action, as it is set in the factory, using generic stacks,  insures that each and every action will have a unique geometry. Rather its the  regulation and the degree of refinement that regulation has gone through.

    If you have been impressed with the feel of an S&S action, chances it was on one of the very few that were regulated and maintained an an exceptionally high level. I have experimented at length with the feel of letoff, and the parameters that create that feel. I can say, that very very few Steinways I service had it before I regulated them...and that goes with any other makes as well. I cannot discover any geometric relationship that produces that feel on its own. The feel comes from high drop which sometimes, as long as letoff is not too high, is a touch higher than letoff. 

    Lubing/burnishing the jack tip, lubing the knuckle, are important too, but the way the letoff/drop event is regulated, and this assumes very well set rep lever height, and jack position, is the key to getting that defining clear bump without excess resistance or friction.

    Overstriking, which given S&S's generic frames set under a sometimes warped plate, causing elevated string height, may also contribute to lessening the resistance of the event. As well, keeping the hammer weights down, which is an obvious biggy.

    I am interested in hearing other's takes on achieving the feel of this really defining event...my take is that S&S or any manufacturer does not own this parameter, the technician does.

    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-22-2019 00:18
    Jim, I don't think we're in disagreement. I didn't mean to imply that their action frame is intrinsic to that touch, I wasn't clear on that. What I mean is that it's important that it still feels and responds the way an S&S is supposed to and that point of escapement is key. I agree with you that that ideal is difficult to maintain on their actions, they are finicky and when they are less than optimal they're hard to play, that's a shortcoming of the design. As you say, they tend to be high maintenance. 
    If you can achieve that touch and it's easier to attain and maintain, that's great. It's an improvement. 
    Jim, I'm sure you have more insight into that moment of escapement than I, the other point of interest to that event is at the fingertip and the bottom 3rd of the keystroke. As I was taught and you indicate with your comments about the letoff, ideally a pianist can play in that bottom 3rd region with control, power, expression, and dependable repetition. God willing.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-22-2019 08:07
    I think one of many components is jack ratio( jack out divided by jack in). I didn’t notice much studies on it and believe it worth attention.

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 11.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-22-2019 08:18
    Associated with possibility of jack ratio, may be knuckle size. Although, if one were to reduce the jack ratio, given modern regulation parameters, not sure you could cycle the jack through letoff, without increasing dip more than I would like to see...no? 

    I have also spoken at length with a tech (who hates to have his name bandied about) who studied the radius of the jack tip edge, and experimented with that radius to effect this bump. Experiments yielded no clear information or improvement.

    I use a 9mm knuckle as my default, on the theory that it helps with the letoff bump. However I have gone back to some of my previous actions, and found real nice letoffs on 10mm knuckles in several cases. 

    The other avenue is that the roughness of a new knuckle, which can only be smoothed by wear, may be a component.  Along the jack tip/knuckle interface friction reduction line, I have heard of someone mixing teflon powder into a paste with ethanol...I think it was Gerry Groot, who died a couple of years ago.  Any one ever heard of this?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-23-2019 16:04
    Jim,

    Mario Igrec mentioned a solution in use at the Bosendorfer factory called “milk.” Teflon powder with Protek or Prolube. You can paint it right on knuckles and some will get carried into the leather. A lot less waste and micro teflon powder flying through the air.

    Joe




  • 13.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Posted 08-26-2019 12:32
    Joe, I've been looking for the "milk" in Mario's book, but can't find it. Do you remember where he discusses it?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: WNG versus Steinway frame.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2019 12:56
    Hi Jim,
    It wasn't from his book. He gave a chapter presentation and described it then. 

    Joe