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Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

  • 1.  Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-16-2019 21:51
    Hi all,

    This is my first time posting on this forum. I am a new piano technician out in Louisiana. I am a current student of the Randy Potter course and am still working toward my certification. I have recently purchased the Sanderson Accu-Tuner IV to assist in rapidly increasing my tuning speed and skills, but have run into a few problems that maybe some of you can help me out with. I have been attempting to set a temperament on my personal piano for quite some time with the Accu-Tuner, but have run into a problem that I seem to be unable to find a solution for. When I set the temperament, I find that my F3-A3 3rd beat speed is way too fast, and my A3-C#4 3rd beat speed is too slow, slower than my F3-D4 beat speed, and thus making my ladder of 3rds uneven. It seems to me that this must be an operator error. I suspect that this is possibly an octave stretching issue, and when I try to stretch the A octave, I still have the same problems. Same with stretching the F octaves. If anyone can offer some advice on how to fix these beat rates so they will be even and I can set a correct temperament, I'd be ever so grateful. If this post is not where it belongs, then I apologize and will seek further counsel somewhere else. 

    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Enrico Cannella
    ALEXANDRIA LA
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-16-2019 22:00
    Enrico,
    You must select a “page” that has the best tuning for your particular piano. Sounds like you are not doing that.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 3.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-16-2019 22:08
    True. I'm setting the FAC, saving that to Page 1, and then going from there. I guess it would be better to find a page for the Piano I'm working on.

    ------------------------------
    Enrico Cannella
    ALEXANDRIA LA
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-16-2019 22:14
    Yes, for now find a page that is close to your piano. You can check FAC octaves in the tuner to see if it is real close. Usually you can find a page that will work. I think you’ll find the temperament to even out and sound real good. You must not be entering the FAC correctly. You can do that later. Right now just find a page.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 5.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-16-2019 22:27
    Enrico

    I use a SATIV, too. If you set the FAC correct, then the 3rd sequences of F-A, A-C# and C#-F should be correct. If they are not, then you might want to reset the FAC. I've never had a problem with it.  You can save it any page you want, including page 1. That's what I do on a piano that's not in the SAT memory.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-16-2019 23:22
    You wouldn't have this problem if you had purchased a Verituner.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2019 00:34
    Or a CyberTuner. The good thing about the AccuTuner is, you can sell or return it. You can't with an app. Always best to test out an app before buying if possible.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-17-2019 00:38
    Yeah I went with the SAT IV, as a beginner, because that's what was strongly recommended of me. It works fine and produces a decent tuning when I continue with the slightly off FAC I set, but obviously I would like to produce a clean tuning. As for now, monetarily, I think sticking with the SAT IV is best. I'll try the page. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong as far as the FAC because I'm following the instructions in the manual. Maybe I have a setting off or something? Thank you all for your help.

    ------------------------------
    Enrico Cannella
    ALEXANDRIA LA
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2019 00:48
    Enrico

    I would suggest you call Accutuner directly and ask them for help. Perhaps there is a step you're missing or not quite getting right.




    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-17-2019 06:52
    If you have an Android device you can try the Easy Piano Tuner app midrange tuning for free to see if it does better than the AccuTuner.
    You can get a used Nexus 5 phone for about $50 and upgrade the full Easy Piano Tuner app for $20 and $100.
    A basic tuning app worth considering for beginners.
    http://easypianotuner.com

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2019 06:50
    Please tell us something about your piano: 6' long grand or 4'10" in length, and 48" tall upright or 36" tall spinet? Old or new? Nice tone or clangy? Sometimes the piano is the villain.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2019 08:42
    Enrico,

    Patrick could very well be right on the money...

    However, since you are clearly able to HEAR the beats so as to know they are not right, why not try correcting them AURALLY? But as Pat said, if your piano is one that we might refer to as one of the "untunables", no machine or set of ears will be able to fix it...its in the DNA of the piano. 

    So we await your reply.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-17-2019 22:40
    Ok so I tuned my piano with the page and it ended up the same so maybe it's just the optimum tuning I can do on it. I have no way of knowing that really being a beginner. I'm working with a Wurlitzer Spinet Model: 2111 Serial No.: I505675.

    ------------------------------
    Enrico Cannella
    ALEXANDRIA LA
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-17-2019 22:50
    Being a Wurlitzer spinet, an FAC tuning probably will not be optimal. The Reyburn CyberTuner (RCT) does a pretty good job on Wurlitzer spinets, and I can do a good job aurally also. I usually like what RCT does for the plain wires on the Wurlitzer spinets. Usually I tune the bass aurally on all spinets and small consoles as I can get a better match aurally.

    It has been since the 1990's that I used an AccuTuner, but my recollection is that you'd have to modify the FAC numbers to get a good tuning with the machine. Too many irregularities and a lot of inharmonicity to deal with in the Wurlitzer spinets. It would probably take a good bit of experimentation to find what works best. Maybe someone can share how they have modified the FAC numbers to get a good tuning on that particular spinet.


    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2019 00:13
    I don't remember if I tuned any Wurlitzer spinets before I switched to CyberTuner. Most of my spinets at that point were Cable-Nelson and Baldwins. I do remember you can use the D.O. Beat function to stretch the octaves differently. Perhaps try narrowing the octaves by -0.5, tune the temperament octave, and see what the results are. You'll have to experiment around and find out how much the octaves need to be modified (either positive or negative) to find what works for that piano. 

    The fact that that you can hear the beats is great! That's the prerequisite for doing a good tuning. Keep up the good work, and don't give up when it gets hard! Perseverance pays off big time in this industry. Also remember David Andersen's words: "In tuning, perfection doesn't exist; heavy excellence does." Strive for perfection, but also realize when a piano has reached the best you can get it to today. Don't be disappointed but remember that in the very least you've made it a little less worse and a little more musical than it was before. 

    All the best,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-18-2019 00:51
    I'll definitely try playing with the double octave beats. I'm new to the whole concept and how to actually use it on my tuning device so it's good to learn now. I'm a little hesitant to narrow octaves, at least the A, considering when I run a 3rd-10th test, A4 usually will beat the same, if not slower in some cases, than A3. I think the issue is with the F-F octave. Since the A3-C#4 is what's beating too slowly. It's odd. The ladder of thirds increase evenly until the A3-C#4, then in a way resets, and continues a gradual increase all the way back up to F4-A4, and those are perfectly even. Very strange to me.

    Thank you for the inspiring words. I have definitely reached a level of doubt in my studies about my adequacy, so it's so nice to hear from you all. Good to know it can only get better from here!

    ------------------------------
    Enrico Cannella
    ALEXANDRIA LA
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Member
    Posted 01-18-2019 07:13
    Tunelab is a fairly inexpensive software that's very accurate; use with your iphone, ipad, or android tablet. You measure the inharmonicity of each piano first-- a very quick process-- then the tuning curve is generated from that. When you "save" the tuning for a piano, you're saving the inharmonicity so you don't have to measure it each time.

    I tested Tunelab against an experienced aural tuner once and found they both matched but for one note, which I assumed was the aural tuner's error.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-18-2019 07:58
    Do yourself a huge favor and get a better piano on which to practice tuning.  You are beating your brains out unnecessarily.

    Another plug for the Verituner:
    Stretching is done by selecting up to 3 partials to sample with any beat rate you might want to apply and the strength of that partial as a percentage.
    IE: A0:

    10:5  0.0   40%
    8:4    0.0   30%
    6:3    0.0.  30%

    or

    9:3.   .48   33%
    8:1  1.27   33%
    6:3.   .32.  34%


    There are numerous sample points along the scale to select samplings.
    There are 3 built-in stretches and 5 custom stretches from which to select.
    The examples shown are from the custom stretch styles.
    The partial series is sampled for each note, recorded, saved and used to calculate a tuning.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-18-2019 08:21
    Sometimes in spinets, the beats are very hard to hear and distinguish. I occasionally get confused because certain partials just are not very clear.

    The width of the A3-A4 octave MUST be the exact same width as the F3-F4 octave for everything to work properly with the contigous M3's. You can check octave size with the P4/P5 test, or with the M3/M10 test.

    For example, tune the A3-A4 octave for the best sound. On a Wurlitzer spinet, it's likely that a 4:2 octave will sound the best (but it's OK if it's slightly narrower). Then check to see what kind of octave it is by comparing the beat rates of A3-D4 and D4-A4. Then tune the F3-F4 octave. Compare beat rates of F3-A#3 and A#3-F4 with those of A3-D4 and D4-A4. If their respective beat rates are the same, the octaves are the same width.

    Once equal octave width is done, then (and only then) can you proceed to correctly setting up the contiguous M3's. If the contiguous M3's are uneven, then you make small changes in the octaves until they are correct. I would start with a 4:2 octave to see how that works. That would mean A3-D4 and D4-A4 beat exactly the same, and F3-A#3 and A#3-F4 beat exactly the same. You can also check for a 4:2 octave when the M3/M10 beat exactly the same. 

    For a Wurlitzer spinet, I would make A3-A4 a 4:2 octave, and then adjust F3-F4 so that contiguous M3's will fit. Don't obsess over it, because you will have uneven beat rates somewhere. Nothing will line up perfectly, but you can still get pretty close in a Wurlitzer spinet, at least in the temperament octave. I usually favor 4ths and 5ths over M3's in a spinet, because you'll never get perfectly ascending and descending M3's. And the bass will be a bit wonky no matter what. Your job is to make it sound as good as it can. I usually prefer 4:2 octaves in the bass of Wurlitzer spinet, and at some point your ear will want you to start tuning 6:3 octaves. Don't make the mistake of tuning 6:3 octaves just because it is a wound string.

    I hope my coffee has worked, and the above is clear enough.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2019 11:48
    I just remembered something last night. You're tuning a spinet; there are going to be compromises. What if the Accu-Tuner is compromising the thirds in favor of another interval, such as the fourths? That might be the only way to get good fourths and as good of fifths as you can get on a spinet. Always look at more than one interval type before changing something. Then, if you need to change something, don't be afraid to do it! 

    Narrowing the octaves isnt necessarily a bad thing if it makes the tuning better for that particular piano. Yes, it's not theoretically correct, but this is the real world, and unfortunately this happens occasionally. The nice thing about the SAT is that you can take the FAC once, then mess around with the DOB until you find the right octave stretch for that piano. 

    Hope this helps,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Posted 01-18-2019 14:53
    The AccuTuner measures F3, A4, and Cwhatever it is -- I think C6. I'm pretty sure F3 is a wound string on a Wurlitzer spinet. The plain wire strings begin at G3 (I think), so there is a pretty hard inharmonicity compromise that the FAC tuning just can't handle very well. The FAC calculation does better if F3 is a plain wire. At least that's my recollection. Forgive me if I'm wrong...I haven't used an AccuTuner since the late 1990's. :)

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2019 07:28
    John is correct about the problems from using a wound string to measure F3. 
    This procedure works very well:
    Measure F3 (AT set to F6) but don't store it.  It will probably be in the range of 16 to over 20. 
    Then, measure the first plain wire, which may be something like 6.  Average the two. 
    Go back to F3, set the AT to F6, and enter that number, say 14.  This should give you good results.
    And, call Inventronics.  They know what they're doing.
    Good luck,
    Ruth
    p.s. Be sure you're starting at 0 when you measure, either by tuning, or entering an offset.

    ------------------------------
    Ruth Zeiner
    ruth@alliedpiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2019 12:09
    Enrico --

    I second the notion that you need a better piano. A spinet, almost any spinet, is probably the worst choice for learning-how-to-service/tune pianos you could have. Almost none of the repair methods Randi teaches apply to a spinet. It also has such short strings that few of the partials that you want to be hearing are audible, or even there. Not to mention the horrible false beating strings you must be dealing with. The tuning you are pulling off with the SAT may be fine but the false beating strings may be misleading you. Get yourself a piano that is not a spinet before trying to master these skills. Once you understand what is going and can pull it off successfully on a better piano you will then be able to go back to the spinet and have that AHA! moment. Also, do yourself a favor and learn how to tune aurally before you switch over into ETD dependent tuning. You'll be glad you did.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Sanderson Accu-Tuner iv Temperament Setting

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2019 13:39
    If you want to upgrade your piano, (or perhaps start a collection,) you could attend your local PTG chapter meeting and ask if anyone has an old upright they're getting rid of. Or look on Craigslist under "free." Yes, ideally you'd want a six foot or longer grand in perfect condition, but I presume you don't have that kind of money to spend at this point in your career. Picking up a free old upright has two benefits:

    1. It's (probably) scaled the closest to a large grand of all the uprights, except Mr. Chernobiff's "Mammoth". In the very least you can get good results when setting the temperament. 

    2. It will give you plenty of practice with repairs and regulation. Even if you end up discarding it later, you'll get much needed practice on your own piano before you have to practice on someone else's.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------