Pianotech

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crown press. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail.

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crown press. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail.

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Hi Mr. Brickman,

Its such a big question i think your going to get such varied answers that you'll most likely be more confused than before you asked it. I'll address a couple things you mentioned. 

Weak treble: It sounded like you were talking about a Steinway. Compared to other companies they are one rib short in the treble and on top of that, the diaphragmatic system weakens that area badly. And further, they set downbearing incorrectly at the factory. If you check the downbearing its most likely 2+ degrees. Way too much down force on the weakened structure. If your working with an existing board, just correcting the downbearing is a good start. What i do to get a fantastic treble is replace the maple caps with a harder wood. I use Osage orange, but there are other species that work too. I believe boxwood is used a lot because of its ultra fine grain. I also like to extend the scale a little bit, my preferred length of #88 is 54mm. Then after that its good regulation of the action, and voicing properly.

The other point i'd like to make Norman is about design. No one else talks about it, but the most important elements are weight and space and internal stress. Only the Compression Crowned soundboard maximizes those three elements. All the other systems make compromises on those elements. I think the criticism of compression crowned boards come from not knowing how to make them properly. BTW, they already have a full crown before being glued in and develop compression once glue in. Making them is a timed sequence that also has to be in the proper order, when done so, they can last as long long time. When installed improperly can fail rapidly. Since i have studied over 500 soundboards one thing becomes clear, all boards are made with mistakes as far as rib dimensions, panel thicknessing and more. Its actually a great opportunity because they can be improved on by a lot. One element that offers much improvement on is weight.  I can remove 3 - 8 pounds of weight from a soundboard without compromising its strength. That's because most boards are overbuilt by that much. I picked up on this  when i had three sequential Baldwin R's in my shop and each boards weight varied from 12 lbs to 18lbs. And its the same with the other brands as well.

Anyways, i have around a 100 videos on soundboard design, making them and with many experiments on my youtube channel if you want to learn more about how to make soundboards. There's a lot of practical info there.

All the best!

-chris

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Thanks to all for the posts. Informative, as hoped, and reinforces how complex the topic gets and covers some of the options that are part of soundboard manufacturing and re-manufacturing. 

A few references that others might also find of interest: (a) the PTG Journal of January 2006, page 12, article by Mary Cushing Smith includes discussion of several factors/options in belly work. (b) in the PTG Journal of October 2006, page 16, Robert Grijalva discusses an approach for getting more power and consistent timbre in the treble. And (c) Del has some good comments in https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1126038/what-is-belly-work.html that explain how the approach I referred to earlier of starting with 4.0% moisture content of flat soundboard and ribs can result in a well-tensioned crowned soundboard.

Chris, your videos are quite a good set of references for belly work and I encourage others to also have a look. The listing is at https://www.youtube.com/@ChernobieffPiano/videos.

Del, yes – consider offering again your belly work 3-hour review class. I'm sure it is a good start on the topic. And to ask again, if you or others have videos, or good references, they would be appreciated. I might give the Wolfenden treatise a try. Regards, Norman.

Hi Mr. Brickman,

Its such a big question i think your going to get such varied answers that you'll most likely be more confused than before you asked it. I'll address a couple things you mentioned. 

Weak treble: It sounded like you were talking about a Steinway. Compared to other companies they are one rib short in the treble and on top of that, the diaphragmatic system weakens that area badly. And further, they set downbearing incorrectly at the factory. If you check the downbearing its most likely 2+ degrees. Way too much down force on the weakened structure. If your working with an existing board, just correcting the downbearing is a good start. What i do to get a fantastic treble is replace the maple caps with a harder wood. I use Osage orange, but there are other species that work too. I believe boxwood is used a lot because of its ultra fine grain. I also like to extend the scale a little bit, my preferred length of #88 is 54mm. Then after that its good regulation of the action, and voicing properly.

The other point i'd like to make Norman is about design. No one else talks about it, but the most important elements are weight and space and internal stress. Only the Compression Crowned soundboard maximizes those three elements. All the other systems make compromises on those elements. I think the criticism of compression crowned boards come from not knowing how to make them properly. BTW, they already have a full crown before being glued in and develop compression once glue in. Making them is a timed sequence that also has to be in the proper order, when done so, they can last as long long time. When installed improperly can fail rapidly. Since i have studied over 500 soundboards one thing becomes clear, all boards are made with mistakes as far as rib dimensions, panel thicknessing and more. Its actually a great opportunity because they can be improved on by a lot. One element that offers much improvement on is weight.  I can remove 3 - 8 pounds of weight from a soundboard without compromising its strength. That's because most boards are overbuilt by that much. I picked up on this  when i had three sequential Baldwin R's in my shop and each boards weight varied from 12 lbs to 18lbs. And its the same with the other brands as well.

Anyways, i have around a 100 videos on soundboard design, making them and with many experiments on my youtube channel if you want to learn more about how to make soundboards. There's a lot of practical info there.

All the best!

-chris

No immediate job pending, but I am interested in the subject of belly work, the heart of the piano sound: soundboard, ribs, and bridges. Triggered from the real world of both used and new higher-end pianos whose sound, usually in the treble, I often feel should have better power and better timbre/sound-quality than what I am hearing.

One area of interest is factory manufacturing: (a) Do any of the few remaining piano manufacturers use the belly approach of working with flat soundboard sections and straight/flat ribs having an ultra-low (like 4%) moisture content, and letting the subsequent re-introduction of moisture to the glued-up assembly cause the resulting soundboard crown and associated tension? (b) Or do they usually use a concave cavity for the soundboard and glue ribs on with go-bars as clamps? I know that the belly topic is very complex, including wood types, resonators, cantilevered bridges, approaches for mounting and setting bridge heights, varying soundboard thickness, and more, but I am just trying to simplify it a little here.

A second area of interest is our rebuilding work that includes soundboard re-manufacturing. Is there a ranking of quality for the at-least three approaches that I have come across in our literature? (a) Pre-shape the ribs to match the desired crown of the soundboard before gluing the set in a crowned press. AKA a "Rib-Crowned Soundboard." (b) Leave the ribs flat and force the crown into the soundboard by means of the crowned press alone. AKA a "Compression Crown." And (c) Apply some modifications along with the preceding two options, such as add an extra rib or two into the upper treble, or use a stronger wood like spruce in place of sugar pine for a couple ribs in the upper treble, or add metal reinforcement/strengthening to the belly rail. 

I further assume that the above first-listed ultra-low moisture approach for factory belly work is the optimum due to the associated resultant tension – agree/disagree? Thanks in advance for any clarification on this topic. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------