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Clavinova for practice rooms?

  • 1.  Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 23:04
    The local Yamaha dealer is proposing clavinovas for practice rooms.  Is anyone doing this at serious music schools?  I have my own ideas about it and longevity, but I would like to know if this is a situation quality schools are are transitioning into.

    Thanks for sharing if you are so inclined.

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    Tim Coates RPT
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 2.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2022 00:33
    Do the students want to learn to play the piano or the keyboard?



    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com


    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2022 11:57
    As a pianist, piano teacher (MM level study), and piano tech, my advice is NO.  The goal of piano study is to make a good sound on a PIANO.  Pretty soon digital pianos are going to get so good that they will actually have a complete soundboard in them, with a full set of strings and bridge, and the keys will activate an actual mechanism that will set hammers in motion to mimic the feel of the real...oh wait that's just a piano.

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    Nicholas Litterski, RPT RPT
    Austin TX
    (512) 573-8920
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2022 12:04

    I can see Clavinova's for non piano major practice rooms, but in NO way would I support putting keyboards in any piano major practice rooms, ensemble rooms or faculty rooms or wherever piano majors play as accompanists, or performers. Also, keyboards would have to be replaced every few years, so where is the cost savings?

     

    Paul




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  • 5.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2022 14:22
    Thanks for the replies!  I had a number of people reply privately and that was greatly appreciated also.

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    Tim Coates RPT
    Sioux Falls SD
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-28-2022 08:13
    I have about 50 practice rooms to take care of, only 10 of which are grands (therefore specifically for practice of the piano as an instrument). The upright rooms are primarily used for ear training, theory, composition, and "class" piano purposes where the feel of the instrument and the production of good tone are not nearly as important as having the instrument simply function correctly and be reasonably well in tune. I have suggested to my department chair that we consider replacing some of these uprights with the Yamaha hybrid model NU1X. It would obviously be prudent to do a small number at first to test function, warranty, service needs and longevity, but priced at less than $1000 more than the current P22 and with features such as excellent sampled sounds, headphone and bluetooth capability, and USB/MIDI connectivity, plus not needing to be tuned seasonally, it seems an intelligent avenue to explore. If we could replace even half of our practice room uprights with these hybrids, it would bring my tuning and maintenance load within almost manageable levels. ;-) Sadly, we are in the midst of what seems to be a long-lived budget freeze, and funds to even start this kind of a changeover are non-existent.
    ___
    David Dunn
    Piano Maintenance Technician and Coordinator
    UNI School of Music
    319-273-7337
    RSL 190  /  Cedar Falls, IA 50614
    uni.edu  /  #1UNI



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  • 7.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-28-2022 13:39
    And it is worth adding that, as others have previously posted to these lists, keyboards that people can listen to over headphones can be located in places other than practice rooms. At least one school even has some in their library!

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-29-2022 09:21
    Thanks Alan for the comment.  I searched and searched a couple weeks ago for answers on these lists and couldn't find threads newer then the early 2000's.  I really thought that was odd, but I don't know why your post prompted me to use some different search wording.  I found threads that were 3-5 years old on the subject.

    For those interested there is a movement from technicians (from private emails) moving towards digital keyboards of various types in non-major practice rooms.  The technicians are glad to eliminate the upkeep on non-major practice pianos.  This is in small colleges and large universities.  I find the longevity issues a big question mark.  Yamaha people seem to have information that longevity is 15 years for an electronic instrument played 15 hours a day.  And then the instrument value is $0.  The contention is this is a cost savings because there is no tuning or repairs compared to an acoustic piano.  I am not sure where Yamaha has done their research.

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    Tim Coates RPT
    Sioux Falls SD
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-29-2022 13:27
    Yamaha people seem to have information that longevity is 15 years for an electronic instrument played 15 hours a day.  And then the instrument value has $0.  The contention is this is a cost savings because there is no tuning or repairs compared to an acoustic piano. 


    Let's do the math. I could figure in inflation but let's use today's dollars. 

    You buy a Clavinova for $10,000, and a P22 for $10,000. 

    After 15 years, you buy another $10,000 Clavinova, with zero maintenance, if you're lucky. 
    After 15 years, the P22 would have cost a minimum of $5000 to tune and maintain, plus a new set of hammers for $1500, for a total of about $6500. 

    After 30 years, you buy another Clavinova, for $10,000
    The P22 is still going, but it cost $6500 to maintain. 

    After 45 years, you buy another Clavinova, for $10,000. 
    The P22 is still going but costs another $65000 to maintain. 

    After 60 years you will have spent $40,000 for Clavinovas with no maintenance costs, but it's worth $0. 
    After 60 years, you will have spent $26,000 for maintenance, plus the initial investment of $10,000, for a total of $36,000, but you will have a piano worth $3000.  Net cost of the P22, $33,000. 

    I realize there are a multitude of other factors to consider, on both sides, but in the long run, electronic instruments are not less expense. 

    Wim





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  • 10.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-29-2022 09:28

    As a friend of mine used to say, I would lay down and think about that idea again- whether Clavinovas or N series hybrids. Clavinovas certainly have a long resume of use, but things DO break and you will have to take one apart from time to time. This is not an easy task. 
    The N series instruments are even more complicated to talk apart- I recently replaced a hammer assembly in an N3 and counted 50 screws I had to remove, and then replace, to accomplish the task. The N1 is much easier, but I would guess there are 20 screws to remove to get at the traction and make the repair. Parts are also difficult to obtain and VERY expensive- the first time we ordered a hammer assembly for the N3, is was about $80 for ONE note. The last quote was something like $250. The "hammer" is glued to the shank with a very tough glue, but if it breaks I could not find an adhesive that worked for more than a few weeks. Fortunately the Yamaha dealer knew a dealer in Japan, who got the part for about $5-10, but then shipping was $100.
    Conversely, there are U1s at NIU from 1971, still very functional in the practice rooms. An entire set of action parts from Yamaha, last set I bought anyway, was less than $1000.  For 88.

    Finally, I really don't like that the sounds of a digital keyboard of any stripe are basically set, not alterable by how you play the note. It just isn't the same as an acoustic piano, and I think that would have an effect on the musical development of the students. 



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    David Graham,RPT
    Graham Piano Service, Inc
    Sycamore IL 60178
    815-353-5450
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-29-2022 10:44
    Thanks David, your words are wise and appreciated. If Yamaha really wants to get these instruments into institutions like mine, they would be well-advised to find a way to make the inevitable repair work that follows heavy use practical and affordable.

    I have to admit, this kind of thinking tends to hit me this time of year, when I'm slogging through our upright practice room pianos when I'd rather (should) be doing deep work on the four Ds that will serve for well over 100 performances between late January and early May. The ten piano faculty studio grands also need attention, as do the grands in our dozen or so classrooms and rehearsal spaces. And then there's the harpsichord... Call it the "January Blues". ;-)
    ___
    David Dunn
    Piano Maintenance Technician and Coordinator
    UNI School of Music
    319-273-7337
    RSL 190  /  Cedar Falls, IA 50614
    uni.edu  /  #1UNI



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-29-2022 17:58

    From the conversations I've had with music students, I suspect the hybrids with a grand action (Yamaha N1x, Kawai nv10x) would be far more appreciated than those with a vertical action (Yamaha NU1x / Kawai nv5s).  They're still relatively small, so I expect they'd fit most practice rooms that could accomodate a vertical.  They do cost a bit more.  Can't comment on the longevity of the electronic components in either one.


    In my opinion this is the real advantage of hybrids for serious music students -- it gets you a real grand action in the smallest possible space.

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    Nathan Monteleone RPT
    Fort Worth TX
    (817) 675-9494
    nbmont@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 07:45
    Wim, thanks for your input. Your numbers, while applicable in a scenario of a single instrument-to-instrument comparison for a private client, don't apply in the same way to institutional situations, IMO. Setting aside the fact that none of our instruments are played at a rate of 15 hrs/day 365 days/yr, the main longevity issue is that of obsolescence; these are essentially computers, and will become out of date far sooner than that. For me, the bigger factor is opportunity cost; the time I spend on tuning and maintaining our P22s is time I could be spending on our more crucial concert, faculty studio and grand piano practice instruments. One thing in your list did make me smile though: the idea that a 60-year-old P22 could be worth $3000! Around here when I sell our P22s that are a third of that age at auction, I'm fortunate to get $500, and in a private home you often have to pay someone (i.e. cover moving costs) to take an upright off of your hands.

    Nathan, I'm still firmly in the camp that these instruments, even at their current level of sophistication, are not a substitute for a real grand piano (of appropriate quality) in either practice or performance situations. My focus is strictly on those applications where the issues of feel and tone of the piano may be outweighed by the features of the hybrid instrument.

    Lots to consider, but sadly moot right now with budgets being the way they are in many institutions.
    ___
    David Dunn
    Piano Maintenance Technician and Coordinator
    UNI School of Music
    319-273-7337
    RSL 190  /  Cedar Falls, IA 50614
    uni.edu  /  #1UNI



    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 08:24
     the main longevity issue is that of obsolescence; these are essentially computers, and will become out of date far sooner than that.


    This is one the most compelling reasons why digital/electronic pianos should not be used in an institutional setting. Many years ago, Bill Brandon, from Yamaha, said at a chapter meeting that Yamaha invented a new digital piano about once every 10 months, and that those instruments will be obsolete after 18 months. 

    Another thing to consider is that while a Clavinova might have a life expectancy of 15 years, the warrantee on that instrument is only 5 years. After 5 years Yamaha is not obligated to keep spare parts. That means if an electronic part, like a motherboard, fails after 7 years, there is a very good chance that there won't be a part to replace it. Without a motherboard, the instrument is useless. 

    Wim



    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Clavinova for practice rooms?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 11:11
    All music majors must develop some degree of piano proficiency, which really just has mostly to do with learning to press the right keys to correspond to the notes on the score. They need to practice to learn those sight-reading skills, and to learn the basic keyboard harmony stuff. We're talking about majors in music ed, comp and theory, music history, instrument other than piano. For many of these students, access to an electronic instrument would serve their needs very well.

    My own take is that you don't need a Clavinova or the like for this, just a basic "weighted keys" "electric piano," which shouldn't cost more than about $1500 last I purchased one for our group piano lab. With headphones, rooms with 2 - 10 of them could be set up to accommodate their practice needs, freeing up both space and maintenance time. I have found that they typically last 12 years before problems arise.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." Mompou




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