CAUT

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Hi Fred,

You asked if pinning the repetition lever post is different from pinning hammer centers or wippen flange centers. Sadly, I would have to say yes. I have consistently noticed this, although I still do not know why it is.

Ever since you first publicized the protocol you just laid out for more stable pinning, that is what I have been doing myself. We do follow up on our own work and have found that hammer pinning, even in heavily used practice rooms, has become impressively stable, thanks to your method.

To that point, Oliver Esmonde-White has developed a tool he calls "Oliver's Bushing Burnisher." It consists of vertically disposed sample center pins, heated to a prescribed temperature, onto which both bushings of a given part are installed for a predetermined amount of time. The results are very consistent as well as being very stable.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Hi Fred,

You asked if pinning the repetition lever post is different from pinning hammer centers or wippen flange centers. Sadly, I would have to say yes. I have consistently noticed this, although I still do not know why it is.

Ever since you first publicized the protocol you just laid out for more stable pinning, that is what I have been doing myself. We do follow up on our own work and have found that hammer pinning, even in heavily used practice rooms, has become impressively stable, thanks to your method.

To that point, Oliver Esmonde-White has developed a tool he calls "Oliver's Bushing Burnisher." It consists of vertically disposed sample center pins, heated to a prescribed temperature, onto which both bushings of a given part are installed for a predetermined amount of time. The results are very consistent as well as being very stable.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

I saw the gizmo on his website a week or so ago. Don't know that is available just yet, but it sounds like they are going to make a batch now that their prototype is where they want it.

Yeah, I don't know why a repetition lever post would behave so differently compared to other center pin bushings, but I have certainly found that to be so, again, across brands (excluding WNG, of course).

Hi Fred,

You asked if pinning the repetition lever post is different from pinning hammer centers or wippen flange centers. Sadly, I would have to say yes. I have consistently noticed this, although I still do not know why it is.

Ever since you first publicized the protocol you just laid out for more stable pinning, that is what I have been doing myself. We do follow up on our own work and have found that hammer pinning, even in heavily used practice rooms, has become impressively stable, thanks to your method.

To that point, Oliver Esmonde-White has developed a tool he calls "Oliver's Bushing Burnisher." It consists of vertically disposed sample center pins, heated to a prescribed temperature, onto which both bushings of a given part are installed for a predetermined amount of time. The results are very consistent as well as being very stable.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Fred - Alan

There's been as yet no specific mention of manufacturers individual specific techniques or materials.  What do we know about the cloth being used, or whether the same cloth is used for both (all) action pinning?  Daniel DeBiasio provided Steinway's 'official' approach to pinning on the Pianotech version of this discussion. Manufacturers have mostly different criteria than 'boutique' rebuilds.  They have to come up with something that will function within a range of extremes that are beyond their control.  Those parameters have little to do with the refinements we're looking at here, even if most of us learned about this from Bill Garlick, while he was at Steinway.

I'm also still a bit curious about Kathy Smith's experience.  It's not clear (to me) why the reduced friction at the rep lever would have created the noise she referenced.  

Keep at it... we're not done yet.  What would it take to publish the video?

I saw the gizmo on his website a week or so ago. Don't know that is available just yet, but it sounds like they are going to make a batch now that their prototype is where they want it.

Yeah, I don't know why a repetition lever post would behave so differently compared to other center pin bushings, but I have certainly found that to be so, again, across brands (excluding WNG, of course).

Hi Fred,

You asked if pinning the repetition lever post is different from pinning hammer centers or wippen flange centers. Sadly, I would have to say yes. I have consistently noticed this, although I still do not know why it is.

Ever since you first publicized the protocol you just laid out for more stable pinning, that is what I have been doing myself. We do follow up on our own work and have found that hammer pinning, even in heavily used practice rooms, has become impressively stable, thanks to your method.

To that point, Oliver Esmonde-White has developed a tool he calls "Oliver's Bushing Burnisher." It consists of vertically disposed sample center pins, heated to a prescribed temperature, onto which both bushings of a given part are installed for a predetermined amount of time. The results are very consistent as well as being very stable.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Good Morning David,

Thanks for mentioning my post on the other thread, but I disagree with the characterization that 2g (+/-1g) is unrefined.  Different target gram specifications could be chosen but aren't.  I think it would be worthwhile to explore why without dismissing this choice as a compromise.

The Steinway C&A pianos prepared for the concert stages use this pinning, and concert pianists perform with this pinning on a nightly basis. I understand this doesn't serve as proof of my point, but perhaps it serves as motivation to take Steinway's deliberate choice seriously.

Fred Sturm's background material posted above is very enlightening for understanding how different recommendations emerged and took hold.

This is a great discussion.

Fred - Alan

There's been as yet no specific mention of manufacturers individual specific techniques or materials.  What do we know about the cloth being used, or whether the same cloth is used for both (all) action pinning?  Daniel DeBiasio provided Steinway's 'official' approach to pinning on the Pianotech version of this discussion. Manufacturers have mostly different criteria than 'boutique' rebuilds.  They have to come up with something that will function within a range of extremes that are beyond their control.  Those parameters have little to do with the refinements we're looking at here, even if most of us learned about this from Bill Garlick, while he was at Steinway.

I'm also still a bit curious about Kathy Smith's experience.  It's not clear (to me) why the reduced friction at the rep lever would have created the noise she referenced.  

Keep at it... we're not done yet.  What would it take to publish the video?

I saw the gizmo on his website a week or so ago. Don't know that is available just yet, but it sounds like they are going to make a batch now that their prototype is where they want it.

Yeah, I don't know why a repetition lever post would behave so differently compared to other center pin bushings, but I have certainly found that to be so, again, across brands (excluding WNG, of course).

Hi Fred,

You asked if pinning the repetition lever post is different from pinning hammer centers or wippen flange centers. Sadly, I would have to say yes. I have consistently noticed this, although I still do not know why it is.

Ever since you first publicized the protocol you just laid out for more stable pinning, that is what I have been doing myself. We do follow up on our own work and have found that hammer pinning, even in heavily used practice rooms, has become impressively stable, thanks to your method.

To that point, Oliver Esmonde-White has developed a tool he calls "Oliver's Bushing Burnisher." It consists of vertically disposed sample center pins, heated to a prescribed temperature, onto which both bushings of a given part are installed for a predetermined amount of time. The results are very consistent as well as being very stable.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan

Fred,

Thank you pointing out the distinction to be made between quicker key return and faster repetition. Seems like the question I posed does not have a simple answer and, at this time, maybe not even a conclusive one.

And of course, swift repetition is one feature of a high-performing piano action, but it is not the entire story by a long shot. Nuance, control, reliability, and consistency all come in to play as well, as does the inextricable link between touch and tone.

Considering the player's perspective, there is the story of Joyce Meekins, RPT (and recent Golden Hammer Award winner!) when servicing a piano for Lang Lang. After the rehearsal, she inquired if everything was satisfactory with the piano. His reaction was positive, and he added that he would like to, "...feel the keys more under [his] fingers."

What did she do? Strengthen the repetition springs. 

After the concert, she complimented his playing and asked if what she had done was a step in the right direction. He responded in the affirmative. Was he just being gracious? That is certainly a possibility, but it could well have been that the stronger springs gave him the feeling he was looking for, even though the repetition itself may not have been any faster.

It is so great that Scott Murphy has put high-speed video at the service of better understanding many of the things about which we have speculated but have not been able to either observe with the naked eye or measure, until now.

Alan

Good Morning David,

Thanks for mentioning my post on the other thread, but I disagree with the characterization that 2g (+/-1g) is unrefined.  Different target gram specifications could be chosen but aren't.  I think it would be worthwhile to explore why without dismissing this choice as a compromise.

The Steinway C&A pianos prepared for the concert stages use this pinning, and concert pianists perform with this pinning on a nightly basis. I understand this doesn't serve as proof of my point, but perhaps it serves as motivation to take Steinway's deliberate choice seriously.

Fred Sturm's background material posted above is very enlightening for understanding how different recommendations emerged and took hold.

This is a great discussion.

Fred - Alan

There's been as yet no specific mention of manufacturers individual specific techniques or materials.  What do we know about the cloth being used, or whether the same cloth is used for both (all) action pinning?  Daniel DeBiasio provided Steinway's 'official' approach to pinning on the Pianotech version of this discussion. Manufacturers have mostly different criteria than 'boutique' rebuilds.  They have to come up with something that will function within a range of extremes that are beyond their control.  Those parameters have little to do with the refinements we're looking at here, even if most of us learned about this from Bill Garlick, while he was at Steinway.

I'm also still a bit curious about Kathy Smith's experience.  It's not clear (to me) why the reduced friction at the rep lever would have created the noise she referenced.  

Keep at it... we're not done yet.  What would it take to publish the video?

I saw the gizmo on his website a week or so ago. Don't know that is available just yet, but it sounds like they are going to make a batch now that their prototype is where they want it.

Yeah, I don't know why a repetition lever post would behave so differently compared to other center pin bushings, but I have certainly found that to be so, again, across brands (excluding WNG, of course).

Hi Fred,

You asked if pinning the repetition lever post is different from pinning hammer centers or wippen flange centers. Sadly, I would have to say yes. I have consistently noticed this, although I still do not know why it is.

Ever since you first publicized the protocol you just laid out for more stable pinning, that is what I have been doing myself. We do follow up on our own work and have found that hammer pinning, even in heavily used practice rooms, has become impressively stable, thanks to your method.

To that point, Oliver Esmonde-White has developed a tool he calls "Oliver's Bushing Burnisher." It consists of vertically disposed sample center pins, heated to a prescribed temperature, onto which both bushings of a given part are installed for a predetermined amount of time. The results are very consistent as well as being very stable.

Alan

Hi Kathy,

I, too, I have experienced the overnight drop in repetition lever pinning friction, without the spring engaged, and across several different brands of wippens. Even posted about it, wondering why. (Too bad I don't eat insects, because all I got in a response was crickets!)

Alan